Chrysler Forward control amphibious

[rob love]

While part of me is happy that this truck found a good home, and at the same time saved me 15K and a drive to Ottawa, another part of me knows I will likely never get another opportunity at this model of truck.

Congratulations Jack. You have a nice piece. The suspension and drivetrain was my main worry about purchasing it, as I'll assume these were unique units made specifically for this truck. A set of spares will certainly offer piece of mind.

[Robin Craig]

Dear All,

I have been speaking with Jack by phone today and just wanted to chime in a bit here.

I think it is important to note a few things about this truck and it now finding a home with Jack for the meantime.

Obviously I am delighted that my trolling the net and taking the time to copy and paste the link to the vehicle for sale has led to it being purchased by Jack but it would also be grossly unfair if we did acknowledge that "Andre", from whom Jack has bought it also deserves much credit.

Andre has preserved and loved the vehicle for many years and has kept all the spares dry and intact and has not butchered it. Infact he has had several opportunities to sell it but upon vetting the prospective buyers has decided not to sell it. Andre has to be credited with fashioinng a new exhaust but doing so without drilling any holes or welding anything on. He really took care of it. Anything he did remove, such as the shielded wiring, has not destroyed the vehicle as he has kept all the parts and it is all reversible.

Having met Jack Innes myself, I can tell all of you who have not had the honour, that he is a very informed and passionate man in our hobby. It is a very good match.

My hat is off to both Andre and Jack.

Robin Craig
Howe Island

[Robin Craig]

I also can not help but strike out on a tangent a bit and show you all a couple of pictures of one of the Land Rover 101 FC 1 Tonne trucks that were under test around the same time.

I have many more pictures and all the test data.

R

[Jack Innes]

Here are some pictures of test vehicle #3 as it is now.

The rear differential shows the cooling system that involves a 2" spacer between the housing & pressed steel cover with hoses to pick up & return the oil, a belt driven gear pump & a small radiator in front of the main radiator.
This was the end result of several attempts to cool the axle. Part of the testing process involved driving the vehicles from Montreal to Quebec City repeatedly at 62 mph - the overheating is understandable.

The brake calipers are Chevrolet.

The front axle is almost the same but hard to access. It does not have the cooling system since it is disengaged for highway use. To do the brakes or any other maintenance on it the manual directions begin with " remove engine & transmission". This will happen in the spring.

The opening above the fuel tank should have a Pioneer kit rack. I understand the M series vehicles have a standardised rack that measures 39" X 12". Is this correct? Hopefully one will be easy to find.

In the side view you will see the 9.00 X 20 tires on a skid. If you look at the bottom 3 you will see experimental grooves cut into the tread. These look like they would be more effective than the standard tires. The rear 16.00 X 20s on the truck have the same grooves. In the test results there is a notation that the truck can become unstable at speed on a newly wet road.

The current project is to free up all of the cables that control the 4wd, winch, etc.

[David Dunlop]

Fantastic vehicle, Jack. Good to know it is in good hands. The unique aspects of it certainly make it an item worth preserving, although I am certain that same unique quality is going to stress your hair follicles sooner or later.

Curious about the cab. It looks to be a lot deeper than the other survivors. Is there any indication this is original to this particular truck as a 'crew cab' test, or does it look like a post service modification?

David

[Jack Innes]

Thank you David.

The cab was built post service. It looks like someone capable of aircraft work built it & it is very functional. The original trucks had either a fiberglass hard top as you described or a soft top. This truck has evidence of the soft top.

Jack

[rob love]

A cooling system for a differential sounds very much like a technical failure to me. While common on controlled differentials, I don't think I have ever seen it on a normal diff.

I wonder if today's synthetic oils might control the over heating.

[Jack Innes]

Rob,
There is a lot of discussion in the daily test results on the diff trouble & the efforts to overcome it. The end result seems to be the cooling system with the pump and the use of GM differential fluid available at that time. Both axles have limited slip devices. It is obvious that they went to great lengths to sort this out. One of the spare axle housings has 7 inspection openings machined into the casting & fitted with Plexiglas windows so they could observe what was going on inside in use.

I am sure you are correct on the advantages of modern oil meant for the job.

I also doubt that the vehicle will be expected to travel all day at 62 mph any time soon.

Jack

[rob love]

Also possible that the diff, with no airflow since it is located within a hull, would be subject to overheating no matter what oil was used. There would not be the dissipation that an external differential would have. A fault like this must have weighed very heavily against the vehicle. If the fault was consistant on all the vehicles, could you imagine a 600 mile roadmove? It would be almost as bad as the LSVWs, with them littering the sides of the highways.

Notable that on something like the LAVs, the diffs are outside the hulls.

[Jack Innes]

Rob,
I would agree that a long road move could tax the axles. Having the brakes directly coupled to the diff housing would transmit even more heat. Perhaps a full time bilge blower drawing from the rear diff area would serve two purposes.


I replaced the rear brake pads today ( had them on the shelf) & took the truck for its first drive. About a mile down the road & back through a very muddy field with deep ditches. I do not think much would stop the vehicle.
The steering ratio is about 24 to 1 so you can steer it with one hand but need to get used to a lot of turning.

Jack

[rob love]

Jack
I am envious. Congratulations...you have one neat truck.

[45jim]

Diff coolers are very common on race cars, you'll find plenty of sites where they warn of diff oil exceeding 280F during use. On diffs exposed to the airflow a finned aluminum cover is usually enough to deal with excess heat build up. With Independent rear ends where the diff is tucked up out of the airflow a small cooler with pump and fan are often placed in a remote location in the airflow for races. With this diff being all buttoned up and totally isolated from the airflow the addition of a cooler would be a common requirement. I am sure the diff with the windows was to determine where to locate the pickup tube. When you install one its important that the pump not suck air as that will aerate the fluid further degrading its lubricating qualities. The normal method is to use a plastic diff cover while the vehicle is run on a dynometer and see where the fluid is, and isn't.

[Jack Innes]

I have found a little more history on these vehicles on reading some of the hundreds of pages of information.

The missing vehicle is probably No. 1 which was kept by Chrysler as the "datum" or sample vehicle.
Number 2, now at Camp Borden, was delivered September 1969,
Number 3, in my possession, was delivered August 1969,
Number 4 was delivered December 1969,
Number 5 was delivered September 1969
Number 6 was delivered November 1969.

Of #4,5 & 6, one is at the Swords & Plowshares museum, one was dismantled during the test period & one is rumoured to be in Western Canada

Number 1 was very likely scrapped by Chrysler once the program came to a close.

[Jack Innes]

Update;

RAM No. 03 is now back together & after yesterday's Hydrovac rebuild, made its first successful test drive. It is amazingly smooth & is capable of the speeds discussed in the test reports. At 50 mph it handles like a regular pickup truck. I am afraid to go faster on the old tires but it is very willing. The 62 mph governed speed is quite believable. Last fall I tried it off road a bit with impressive results - that was before the power pack came out for a major refit. Hopefully it will see water before summer ends!

Jack

[gordon]

Nice work there Jack, a bit of video wouldn't go amiss for us foreigners.

I hope you kept that added top too as it looked very suitable, but maybe it just doesn't get as cold and wet where you are.

[Jack Innes]

Thank you Gordon, There is still much to do to the truck, tires & painting the wheels being a major item. The top needs to be painted before refitting it. I also want to try the vehicle in the water but not with the top in place. There is not an escape hatch in the present top!! I am in Southern Ontario & it does get very cold & wet here in the winter.
A video will take some outside assistance but may happen.
Jack

[Jack Innes]

Tires: It always seems to be a mystery in fitting mv tires. I have been through the M37 - CMP differences in the past but now am learning that there are similar variations in more modern tires. It seems there are 2 types of rims in use with regards to the bead area, the Industrial rims are most common but the MPT rims are around as well. I have attached pictures showing the difference. The narrower vertical bead lip is the MPT type, the wider one is the Industrial type. I may be wrong but from trying to digest many discussions on this, the MPT tire/rim assembly is designed to run at varying pressure while the Industrial setup is meant to run at a set, usually high, pressure.
The MPT tires often are odd sizes 12.5R20, 14.5R20 for example. Metric sizes are less obvious; 365/80R20 is the same as 14.5R20 I am told.
The RAM truck has MPT rims & hopefully the set of MPT 14.5R20s in the pickup will fit. They are about 3" larger in diameter & slightly narrower than the original 16.00X20s.

[Jack Innes]

Update on RAM progress; New-ish tires now installed & conservation painting done. The graphics were barely visible but readable - the new stencils were cut to be an exact duplicate of the originals.

[rob love]

Gorgeous. That vehicle has been on my must have list since I was a young Private in Borden.

[charlie fitton]

I also want to try the vehicle in the water but not with the top in place. There is not an escape hatch in the present top!!


Let us know when this happens...I'd make the trip

f

[rob love]

This is an older thread, but with some new development. Last night, after dark and in a rainstorm, a clandestine delivery was made to my property here in Manitoba. There were two pieces, one for me and one for my neighbor, but the one for me is something I wave wanted for over 40 years.

RAM serial 3 is now part of my collection, and I want to thank Jack for his stewardship on the truck. I aim to give the same stewardship towards this piece. Once a few minor details are rectified, I aim to make the bows and tarpaulin for both the cargo area and the cab. I have also sourced some new 16.00-20 tires to replace the michelins that are on it now, but that may wait a few months for me to recover from the expenses involved up to this point. I have to head outside soon to see, in the daylight, what I have received.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Waited for over 40 years? Must be your first true love…

Congrats on the acquisition, Rob. It is a fine piece of Canadian engineering and should have become the “Son of CMP”.

[rob love]

Not my first love, but certainly my longest yearning. I was 19 when I drove my m38 jeep the 1200 miles to Borden in March when I transferred to the regular army as an army mechanic. Prior to that, I drove a dodge m37 to high school for a couple of years. I was already well hooked on military vehicles when I visited the museum in Borden, but something about this truck attracted me. The heart wants what the heart wants as they say.

[rob love]

So with a little more knowledge under my belt, I can offer the following rationalization on these 6 trucks.

Serial no 1: retained by Chrysler and used after the trials ended. Fate unknown
Serial no 2: Borden museum.
Serial no 3: currently with me.
Serial no 4: likely the one destroyed in testing by LETE
Serial no 5: converted to Cummins diesel and for sale out of Calgary. Tan in colour.
Serial no 6: swords and Ploughshares collection

[Wayne Hingley]

That summary really puts it in perspective, Rob. Truly a rare vehicle. Fortunately it has been looked after and preserved in good condition by Jack and others over the years. It certainly continues to remain in good hands.

[rob love]

As I went through the bins of the truck, I came across the waterproof distributor. Sorry, I forgot to take a photo, but I'll add one hopefully tomorrow. Anyway, the distributor was the same manufacture and style as the M38A1 jeep, and similar to the M37 and M151 vehicles. The difference was that the distributor cap has 8 terminals to work with the V8 engine. I have never seen an 8 cylinder distributor like this before, and after a bit of brain-wracking, figured out that the only 8 cylinder gas engine in an M-series vehicle that I could think of was the original M113 APC with the Chrysler 361 engine. Sure enough, it matches. I have to imagine the starter may also be from the M113.
I found one on ebay, but pricey.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/29307686051...3Avlp_homepage
So if I decide to revert back to the original distributor, there is some hope for spare parts. I also saw the original carb which appears to be a Holley similar to the old deuce. More research is needed.

[Bob Carriere]

Congrat Rob you have a real keeper.

I have driven that truck a few time ...... it out performed anything else int he 4x4 club.

On the Distributor caps...... I have seen early mid 50s hemi engines in USA Compressor and Generators and also on stationary engines for military pump/generators using 283 GM blocks..... they all had special waterproof carbs, plugs and dizzy........ all where located in a junk yard in Butler Penn. .....strange coincidence as Butler is the birth place of the early Jeeps. I was married to an American at the time and working for PPG and every trip was and excuse for loading up the back seat of the Camero........ they had stacks of NOS Cargo boxes for the Jeep Military pickups, cord wood stacks of NOS large Axles for the trending Monster trucks of the period........ plywood cased stacked to a dangerous heights as the lower levels were collapsing... for fording kits of M37 and Jeep Gladiators.... it was easy picking the bags of nuts and bolts from the sides of the bottom cases and quart containers of OD green putty for gumming up the waterproofing of batteries, cables, etc.......
....complete aircraft slide in air to air refueling system on skids including the flying tail booms, rubber tanks, pump hose reels,...... and a fleet of forward control Air Force jeeps all without engines...... the engines.... 3 cylinders Listers removed and sold to local Mennonites to power barn milking equipment and sawmills......

The store sign was an actual real space capsule used scarred and battered..... with blown hatch.

Use to belong to the "Independent Mountain Men of Pennsylvania" a black powder thing at the time.....amazing what you can bring back in a hard top camping trailer.

The good old days....... the yard is gone and so is the American wife!!!!!!! .......not sure which I missed the most or cost the most..

[Bob Carriere]

Rob the Industrial 361 was a de-stroked beefed up 383 block....some where used as replacement engines in International single axle tractors early 60s with an Adapter plate...... the Inter 348 C.I. had a bad run with engine problems and replaced with Chrysler engines so parts for a 361 may still be floating around..... they had mechanical RPM linked to the Civvy distributor..... not fast revving but real torkers!!!

........had pimples in them days!!!!!!

[super dave]

Originally Posted by rob love

As I went through the bins of the truck, I came across the waterproof distributor. Sorry, I forgot to take a photo, but I'll add one hopefully tomorrow. Anyway, the distributor was the same manufacture and style as the M38A1 jeep, and similar to the M37 and M151 vehicles. The difference was that the distributor cap has 8 terminals to work with the V8 engine. I have never seen an 8 cylinder distributor like this before, and after a bit of brain-wracking, figured out that the only 8 cylinder gas engine in an M-series vehicle that I could think of was the original M113 APC with the Chrysler 361 engine. Sure enough, it matches. I have to imagine the starter may also be from the M113.
I found one on ebay, but pricey.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/29307686051...3Avlp_homepage
So if I decide to revert back to the original distributor, there is some hope for spare parts. I also saw the original carb which appears to be a Holley similar to the old deuce. More research is needed.

Also the V100 Cadillac Gauge has the same 361 so more than likely the same waterproof ignition in it as well.

[rob love]

Right you are. I did see something about the v100 and Ontos having the same power plant. I suspect it is still going to be hard to find the 8 cylinder specific parts for this distributor. It looks like the top cover, the cap, and the rotor are all unique as will be the lobe section (including weights and springs). I'll have to see if there is an online parts manual for the commando or the early M113, or just as likely for that powerplant. I did just see the rotors on ebay so have a pair of those on order: let the hoarding begin. I also see an interesting cap for the M880 dodge which is basically a regular 318 cap inside a metal shell which has the threaded parts for the shielded wiring. That might also be an option.

I am in no rush though. The engine sounds good as is, and I'll be parking it away for the winter. I pulled the roof out of the back so I could view the spare parts stowed in the back as well as access the aux fuel tank to top it off