Knowledge of the Canadian Army on 6 June, 1944

[Mark W. Tonner]

This may be the wrong place for this but, I've had a subscription to Military Modelling Magazine since 1972, but this morning, after receiving the latest issue, I just bit my tongue and muttered a whole bunch of CENSORED words.

The reason being is this, one of the articles is about a model of a Sexton 25pdr SPG (with deep water wading trunk) that was submitted by a modeller in the United Kingdom (I presume). It is suppose to represent a Sexton that was used by one of the Canadian Artillery Regiments of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division on D-Day.

This is where I have a problem:

1. - the 12th, 13th and 14th Field Regiments, R.C.A., along with the 19th Army Field Regiment, R.C.A., which was attached to the 3rd Cdn Inf Div on D-Day, were all equipped with the 'M7 Priest 105mm How.' self-propelled guns and not with Sexton's.

2. - it goes on to say that the British, more or less, came up with the idea of the 'M7 Priest Kangaroo' for Operation GOODWOOD which took place in July, 1944 - me thinks that Simonds would be rolling over in his grave over that one! The idea for the 'M7 Priest Kangaroo' was CANADIAN - their first use was in Operation TOTALIZE in August, 1944, by Second Canadian Corps.

3. - as an aside, the markings on the model are also wrong, except for the formation sign - which is the correct one for the 3rd Cdn Inf Div, but the Arm of Service marking is for the Junior Infantry Battalion of the Infantry Brigade in an Armoured Division (1944) (63 on green background), the Battery Quarter shown, is that for the 1st Battery (the red square upper right), but the tac 'C 2' is for the second gun in "C" Troop, which would mean that the Battery Quarter for the 2nd Battery (the red square bottom right) should have been used.

I little research on the part of the modeller, into the Royal Canadian Artillery regarding the equipment used by the Field Regiments of the 3rd Canadian Divisional Artillery, would have told him that they were equipped with the 'M7 Priest 105mm How.' equipments on 6 Jun 44 and not with 'Sextons'. Where he got that the British were the first to employ the 'Priest Kangaroo' during Operation GOODWOOD in July, 1944, I haven't a clue.

Anyways, rant over. I've included a photo of the finished model, which the modeller put a lot of work into, but which is also very historical flawed. I know we only had the one beach on 6 Jun 44, but the information regarding the Canadian's and what we used or didn't use on Juno is out there........

Cheers

[DaveCox]

I picked up the marking, but not the fact that the Sexton wasn't even in use then by the regiment concerned. The AOS for an artillery unit would be red over blue surely. I was told some time ago by Chrissie's cousin (a 15th Field veteran) that their 'sister' regiment in 4th Canadian Armoured Div. was the 19th, and that they had Sextons, but not what date they came into use.

I have other issues with the model, mainly over paint colours.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DaveCox
I picked up the marking, but not the fact that the Sexton wasn't even in use then by the regiment concerned. The AOS for an artillery unit would be red over blue surely. I was told some time ago by Chrissie's cousin (a 15th Field veteran) that their 'sister' regiment in 4th Canadian Armoured Div. was the 19th, and that they had Sextons, but not what date they came into use.

I have other issues with the model, mainly over paint colours.

Hi Dave;

Your right, the AoS for the R.C.A. would have been red over blue and yes, eventually the 19th was equipped with the Sexton, and they had originally been equipped with Sextons in the U.K., but for the landings and quite a period after that, they were equppied with the 'M7 Priest 105mm How.' equipment. Regarding the paint colours used, I have issues with that to, but thats another story

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Write them a letter, Marko. Detail everything without seeming offensive. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear. You may use MLU and 1CACR.ORG as references if you like.

Salaam,

G.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Write them a letter, Marko. Detail everything without seeming offensive. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear. You may use MLU and 1CACR.ORG as references if you like.

Salaam,

G.

Been there, Done that (by e-mail).......... NEXT! ...........

It just bothers me....... ...oh well..keep'm honest.....

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DaveCox
"was the 19th, and that they had Sextons, but not what date they came into use."

Dave;

The 19th exchanged their 105mm SPs (M7 Priest) for 25pdr SPs (Sexton) in August, 1944.

Cheers

[DaveCox]

That would figure, thanks Mark. The gentleman in question landed on D+3, and went through to the end, via Holland I believe.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Dave;

The dates that the 12th, 13th and 14th Field Regiments, R.C.A. and the 19th Army Field Regiment (Self-Propelled), R.C.A. converted to towed or self-propelled 25pdrs from the M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs:

12th Fd Regt, R.C.A.:
11th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44
16th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44
43rd Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44

13th Fd Regt, R.C.A.:
22nd Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44
44th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44
78th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44

14th Fd Regt, R.C.A.:
34th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - First week of Aug 44
66th Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44
81st Fd Bty, R.C.A. - converted to towed 25pdrs - 1 Aug 44

19th Army Fd Regt (S.P.), R.C.A.:
55th Fd Bty (S.P.), R.C.A. - converted to Sexton 25pdr SPGs - 24 Aug 44
63rd Fd Bty (S.P.), R.C.A. - converted to Sexton 25pdr SPGs - 24 Aug 44
99th Fd Bty (S.P.), R.C.A. - converted to Sexton 25pdr SPGs - 24 Aug 44

A note concerning the turned in M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs of the 12th, 13th and 14th Fd Regts, R.C.A. - these were the 72 equipments that were converted to M7 Priest Kangaroo APC's for Operation TOTALIZE.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by DaveCox
I was told some time ago by Chrissie's cousin (a 15th Field veteran) that their 'sister' regiment in 4th Canadian Armoured Div. was the 19th, and that they had Sextons, but not what date they came into use.

The 19th Army Field Regiment was never part of the 4th Cdn Armoured Div. The SP Arty Regt in 4CAD was the 23rd Field Regt (SP).

The 19th Field Regt (SP) was originally the SP Regt in the 5th Cdn Armoured Div. However, because it training was not advanced enough in the fall of 1943, it switch places with the 8th Army Field Regiment when 5CAD was sent to Italy. It became the 19th Army Field Regiment and was part of the 2nd Cdn AGRA.

[DaveCox]

John,
You are quite correct. I've checked back on a letter that he sent by email a few years ago, and on some other files. This is the reference to the 19th that I 'misremembered':

Would you believe that I never knew the SP was called a Sexton.. We just referred to it as "The SP" Of course, the main reason for that is my Regiment, which was the 15th Field Regt., did not have those. We used the regular towed 25 pounder and the Quad vehicle. They sure were an excellent weapon. The 19th Field Regt had SP's though and one day, when 2 of them got separated from their own moving column, they wandered into a real battle in one of the small towns we were trying to take and I am sure they saved our necks..

[Bill Alexander]

Does anyone know what became of the main guns removed from the sp's? Seems odd that that number of weapons would just be surplus and left sitting in an ordnance depot.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
"I was told some time ago by Chrissie's cousin (a 15th Field veteran) that their 'sister' regiment in 4th Canadian Armoured Div. was the 19th, and that they had Sextons, but not what date they came into use."

The 19th Army Field Regiment was never part of the 4th Cdn Armoured Div. The SP Arty Regt in 4CAD was the 23rd Field Regt (SP).

The 19th Field Regt (SP) was originally the SP Regt in the 5th Cdn Armoured Div. However, because it training was not advanced enough in the fall of 1943, it switch places with the 8th Army Field Regiment when 5CAD was sent to Italy. It became the 19th Army Field Regiment and was part of the 2nd Cdn AGRA.

Originally posted by Dave Cox
You are quite correct. I've checked back on a letter that he sent by email a few years ago, and on some other files. This is the reference to the 19th that I 'misremembered':

Would you believe that I never knew the SP was called a Sexton.. We just referred to it as "The SP" Of course, the main reason for that is my Regiment, which was the 15th Field Regt., did not have those. We used the regular towed 25 pounder and the Quad vehicle. They sure were an excellent weapon. The 19th Field Regt had SP's though and one day, when 2 of them got separated from their own moving column, they wandered into a real battle in one of the small towns we were trying to take and I am sure they saved our necks..

John/Dave;

John - you are right, the 19th Army Fd Regt (S.P.), was never part of the 4th Cdn Armd Div Arty - but, on numerous occasions, they were 'under command' of the C.R.A. 4th Cdn Armd Div - two examples: Phase II of Operation TOTALIZE (Aug 44) and Phase II of Operation SWITCHBACK (Oct 44)

Dave - when Chrissie's cousin referred to the 19th as a 'sister' regiment, the context of that statement isn't really to far off the mark, when you consider how many times the 19th was 'under command' of the C.R.A. 4th Cdn Armd Div during various operations throughout the campaign in North West Europe - 1944-45, which would more or less find the 15th and 19th working side by side, so to say.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Alexander
Does anyone know what became of the main guns removed from the sp's? Seems odd that that number of weapons would just be surplus and left sitting in an ordnance depot.

Hi Bill;

See Hanno Spoelstra's post "Kangaroo AWD site near Bayeux",
Link (scroll down the page to the post), here on the Forum, for some interesting information regarding your question.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

It is my understanding that the M7 Priests were borrowed from the US Army for the D-day landings, and were to be returned to the Americans by the end of July.

The Following is from the official history of the Canadian Army in the Second World War “ The Victory Campaign” by C.P.Stacey (p210):

“General Simonds asked the Army Commander to obtain American permission to utilize for the purpose the U.S. "Priest" self-propelled guns which had just been withdrawn from the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, and General Crerar did so.

The urgent task of converting the "equipments" in time for the operation was undertaken by an ad hoc Advanced Workshop Detachment, 250 strong, known by the code name "Kangaroo", the name subsequently applied to the armoured personnel carrier. The Officer Commanding, Major G. A. Wiggan, R.C.E.M.E., wrote, "There were 13 units represented in this AWD but in spite of long hours and exhausting work there was not only no friction but a wonderful spirit of co-operation from first to last."The work began actively only on 3 August, the day on which the intention to undertake "Totalize" became firm, but by that evening a pilot model had been completed and sent to Simonds for inspection. The guns and mantlets were removed and armour-plate welded over the openings. When the supply of armour-plate gave out, two sheets of mild steel were substituted, with the space between them filled with sand. (General Mann recalls that the Navy complained at this time that Canadian soldiers were cutting pieces of plating out of craft stranded on the beaches.) Thanks to the "Kangaroo" men (among whom there were some British soldiers) the carriers were ready well ahead of the time for the operation. By the morning of Sunday 6 August, 76 Priests had been converted.”

The return date was pushed back to the end of September. After the fall of Boulogne the Priest Kangaroos were withdrawn from service, the guns remounted and the M7s returned to the Americans.

[Bill Alexander]

In the 4 Canadian Armoured Troops Workshop short history, published at the end of hostilities, the following is noted:
(August 4,1944.)
Captains G. F. Grainger and A. B. Otto with 60 men. left on a composite AWD to Bayeux to modify the armoured vehicles that later aided in the break-through at the Falaise Gap.
From the kangaroo thread that has a related discussion, it appears that the 105mm howitizer barrels were written off? (Speculation. The barrel wear would make these guns less than desireable, and it really was the carriages that were the asset. In this respect disposing of the barrels was not a significant waste of weapons.)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi John;

There were a total of 76x M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs converted to Priest Kangaroos before the launch of Operation TOTALIZE, but only 36 were allotted to each assaulting division (2nd Cdn Inf and 51st (H) Inf Div)(36 + 36 = 72), I haven't been able to figure out where the other 4 were used or who they were allotted to, possibly they were held in Corps reserve.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

The following is from the bottom of Para. 47 in CMHQ report 141:

“Many of the replaced 7 equipments in North-West Europe were converted into armoured personnel carriers by removing the guns, and under the name of Kangaroos rendered valuable service (para 96 below). The guns were later replaced and the equipment turned over to the Americans.”

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/Downl...hq/cmhq141.pdf

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

We know that 72 were used as troop transport (as per Mark's comments), and I suspect the other four were used for command & control. Each of the 76 was assigned ONE driver/mech - no other crewmen - but there were supposedly six officers assigned to the new unit from the Elgins. With two attached to Corps HQ, that would leave four for the "extra" Kangaroos.

Next point: By the Boulogne operation, there were only 53 operational Kangaroos left, but we don't know the disposition of the remainder as yet. Of the 53, we know some were kept on and converted to armoured command vehicles; and the fact is, the rest may not have been in any condition to "return to the Yanks". Although some records indicate they were to be turned back, I suspect many may have been written off, possibly due to wear and possibly due to good ol' Canadian subterfuge...

[Mark W. Tonner]

For some additional information regarding the intial 'Priest Kangaroo APCs', see my post "Re: Kangaroo AWD site near Bayeux", located here Link.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
- but there were supposedly six officers assigned to the new unit from the Elgins. With two attached to Corps HQ, that would leave four for the "extra" Kangaroos.

Geoff;

Dumb question: Do we know if the "six officers from the Elgins" were "Badged Elgins" or were they "C.A.C. officers" being held by "E" Sqn, 25th Armd Del Regt (The Elgin Regt) has "C.A.C. reinforcements", just curious....

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Dose anyone know what happen to the 24 M7 Priests that were turned in by the 19th Army Field Regiment on the 24th of August?

I don’t think that the M7 gums used in Normandy were that badly worn. They did not run up that much mileage, maybe only a few hundred miles. Also the gun barrels were designed to be quickly replaced when worn. An extreme example of this occurred with the 5.5in guns. These guns only had a barrel life of 2400 EFC. In August 1944, 1st Cdn Army was replacing an average of eight 5.5in gun barrels a day.

Also if you look at the M7s of the 8th Field Regt RCA in Italy; these were already well used when 5CAD took over these guns from the British 7th Armoured Division in early 1944, but they continued in use until they were replaced by Sextons in April 1945, in NWE.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Dose anyone know what happen to the 24 M7 Priests that were turned in by the 19th Army Field Regiment on the 24th of August?

John;

To the best of my knowledge, the M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs of the 19th were also turned into the Royal Artillery reorganization centre located at RYES, northeast of BAYEUX, where the 12th, 13th and 14th had turned in their's at the begining of Aug. I'll confirm this.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
To the best of my knowledge, the M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs of the 19th were also turned into the Royal Artillery reorganization centre located at RYES, northeast of BAYEUX, where the 12th, 13th and 14th had turned in their's at the begining of Aug. I'll confirm this.

John;

I can confirm that the M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs of the 19th Army Fd Regt (SP), RCA were in fact turned into the RA re-org. Centre at RYES on 24 Aug 44. What happened to them after that, I don't know. A source that may be able to tell us is actually due to be published this year, which is the volume of the history of the Royal Regiment of Artillery dealing with North West Europe, 1944-45.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

MY LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF MILITARY MODELLING MAGAZINE:

The Editor
'Despatch'
Military Modelling
PO Box 6017
Leighton Buzzard
LU7 2FA

Dear Sir;

A comment regarding the model of the Sexton SPG with deep water wading trunk (by Jay Laverty), which appeared in Mil Mod Vol. 34 No. 7 (a picture of which is also on the front cover). The craftmanship of the modeller, I have no problem with, the problem lies in the historical context of the model's setting itself. Mr. Laverty makes reference to the Sexton SPGs being used by the Canadian's on D-Day. This is historical wrong, the Field Regiments, R.C.A. (12th, 13th & 14th) of the 3rd Canadian Divisional Artillery, along with the attached 19th Army Field Regiment, R.C.A., were all equipped with the 'M7 Priest 105mm How.' equipment on the 6th June, 1944 and continued using this equipment until late July/early August, 1944, when in the case of the 12th, 13th and 14th Field Regiments, R.C.A., they converted back to the towed 25pdr equipment and the 19th Army Field Regiment, R.C.A., converted to the Sexton SPG (August 1944).

A note concerning the markings of Mr. Laverty's model, the Formation Sign of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division is correct, but the Arm of Service marking he used (63 on a green background) is that of the Junior Infantry Battalion of the Infantry Brigade of an Armoured Division (1944). The Arm of Service marking for Field Regiments, R.C.A. was Red over Blue with the applicable Serial in White, which for the Canadian Field Regiments involved on D-Day would have been 42, 43 and 44 for the 12th, 13th and 14th Field Regiments, R.C.A., respectively and 45, with a white Bar below the AoS itself, for the 19th Army Field Regiment, R.C.A. In the case of the 19th Army Field Regiment, R.C.A., the Formation Sign used, would have been that of First Canadian Army, since they were Army Troops, First Canadian Army, attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division.

In regards to the Battery Quarter used, the one shown on the model, is that for the 1st Battery (the red square upper right), but the 'C2' Tac is for the second gun in "C" Troop, which would mean that the Battery Quarter for the 2nd Battery (the red square bottom right) should have been used. There being six Troops in a Field Regiment, two Troops per Battery: "A" & "B" Troops - 1st Battery; "C" & "D" Troops - 2nd Battery and "E" & "F" Troops - 3rd Battery.

Near the end of the article that accompanied Mr. Laverty's model, there is a comment, that more or less states, that the British came up with the idea to remove the 105mm Howitzers themselves from the 'M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs' and using them has APCs for Operation GOODWOOD (July, 1944). This is also historical wrong. The idea of taking the 105mm Howitzers out of the 'M7 Priest 105mm How. SPGs' and converting them to APCs (M7 Priest Kangaroo) was a Canadian idea (Lt.-Gen. Guy Simonds, Corps Commander, Second Canadian Corps), which came about when planning Operation TOTALIZE (August, 1944). The first use of the 'M7 Priest Kangaroo' occurred in August, 1944, when Second Canadian Corps launched Operation TOTALIZE, to carry forward the assaulting Infantry of the 4th Canadian Infantry Brigade, 2nd Canadian Infantry Division and 154th (Highland) Infantry Brigade, 51st (Highland) Infantry Division. Each of the two assaulting Divisions had 36x M7 Priest Kangaroos each.

These are just some points that I felt should be brought forward, from a historical context. I've had a subscription to Military Modelling Magazine since 1972 and this is the first time I've felt it was neccessary to write to the Editor concerning an article published in the magazine.

Thank You.

Mark W. Tonner
Retired; Canadian Army


THE REPLY FROM THE EDITOR: NOTE, NOTICE WHO ELSE WROTE CONCERNING THIS ARTICLE.

Dear Mark,

Thanks for your comments on the Sexton article in Issue 7.

I will endeavour to use your letter in Despatch in the next available issue. Ed Storey who is still serving in the Canadian army wrote in the same vein.

Best wishes

Ken Jones
Editor
Military Modelling magazine

[Mark W. Tonner]

The following is taken from Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Volume III, The Victory Campaign, The Operations in North-West Europe, 1944-1945 (pages 209 - 210): "The other innovation was the use of what have since come to be called armoured personnel carriers, which made in "Totalize" what seems to have been their first appearance on the battlefield*."

This is what the footnote for * has to say: "In 1947 an application was made to the United Kingdom authorities for an award to General Simonds as having suggested the introduction of the armoured personnel carrier. The Inter-Departmental Committee on Awards to Inventors did not recommend an award, since the idea was considered as being a valuable improvisation falling within General Simonds' normal duties as a commander."

So, in black and white, more or less, it states that the use of the M7 Priest Kangaroo APC, in Operation TOTALIZE was the first battlefield use of an armoured personnel carrier and that Gen. Simonds was the, more or less, 'Father' of such.

See what I mean, when I wrote earlier that the information is out there, all you have to do is look for it..........

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Due to the amount of information posted on the MLU Forum here regarding "Priest Kangaroos and Ram Kangaroos", and just so nobody gets lost or totally confused, here are the links to most of what can be found herein:

In the WW2 Military History & Equipment - Kangaroo AWD site near Bayeux and Photos needed

In The Armour Forum - Kangaroos?

Cheers

[Jordan Baker]

HI everyone

Not wanting to open up a big can of worms but I just picked up the latest issue of Military Modelling (Vol 34, No11)

There were a couple of responses in the letter's to the editor section in regards to Ed Storey's and Marks W. Tonner's letters.

I guess these two readers weren't happy about Ed's and Marks very well thought out letters on Canadian markings.

Sincerely
Jordan Baker

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jordan Baker
HI everyone

Not wanting to open up a big can of worms but I just picked up the latest issue of Military Modelling (Vol 34, No11)

There were a couple of responses in the letter's to the editor section in regards to Ed Storey's and Marks W. Tonner's letters.

I guess these two readers weren't happy about Ed's and Marks very well thought out letters on Canadian markings.

Sincerely
Jordan Baker

Hi Jordan;

I've seen the responses in question, I love the bit when the one says, more or less, 'who cares about accuracy, just as long as it looks good'.

Myself, when modelling, I try and make em as accurate as possible in every detail.

To each his own I guess.

Cheers