M38A1 CDN3 106mm recoilless rifle Garage find

[army brat]

Hi
New to the forum and military vehicle ownership.
Was an army brat for 16 years and always wanted a Military jeep.
My father was in Transport, Artilary and with the Field Engineers so I was always around military vehicles and lots of Jeeps.
I was selling a boat I had recently and was contacted by a person who asked me if I would consider trading for an "Old Army Jeep that has been stored for nearly 20 years" I bit, and within a week I had a 71 M38A1 CDN3 in very solid shape with 11000 original miles showing. Now the M38 had been sitting but has been mucked with a bit, roll cage added (Going to get cut off) also has been painted Red at one time but was told it was used as a tug on an Airforce base but who knows (Or mule as my Dad called it) and other little bits missing.........not bad though.
I thought I had gotten just a plane old Military Jeep but it had a few peculiarities.
The first thing I noticed right off was that it had no tailgate at all back end was wide open. I had done my research and knew that the M38's had a solid tailgate.
After looking at the windshield I could see where there had been a piece welded into the top just right of center.
The last thing was how high it sat it in the backend, I though maybe there was a lift kit or something on it at 1st but saw nothing but a set of helper springs in the back.
After contacting a collector close to me (Thanks Gordon) he agreed to come up and have a look at the Jeep and he deemed it a 106 carrier.

Now I am told that this is a rare bird.......kind of scares me a bit considering I just wanted a Military Jeep I could run around in and maybe run through some mud with my girls.

What do I do? Change the windshield throw on a tailgate and call it good? Or is that like drawing a mustache on the Pope? Maybe I need to trade it for an M38a1 of the garden variety.

Thanks for your input in advance

P.S Is there anyone who can help me get the history on it from the DND?
It came from Chatham so I am guessing that it could have been in London with the RCR's

[NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)]

Hi,
Do you have a pic of the jeep

[Paul Singleton]

Nice find! Too bad you didn't have the gun. Those jeeps certainly look intimidating!

The picture is from this site,

http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22675

Paul

[rob love]

A small number of these were sold here in Manitoba. The windshield was not popular as it let the cold air in when driving in the fall/winter. It was common for guys to replace the windshield with a standard one and re-weld in the missing portion onto the back of the body. There were actually about a dozen windshields and the cut out back plates laying out in the local mil salvage yard.

The recoiless rifle jeeps were usually low mileage trucks. About the only real problem I saw with them when they were being sold was that most had their original engines (somewhat tired) whereas the normal M38A1s with around 35,000 miles usually had new replacement engines.

There is a collector on this site who has the recoiless rifle for his Jeep. Not something you would want to take offroading, but certainly makes for a nice display.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have a 482 page PDF document from DND with 'some' information. Each line in this document covers a single vehicle. Not all CFR are represented, only those that remain in the DND system.
Insofar as the 106mm recoilless rifle is concerned, here is what the list includes.

[servicepub (RIP)]

What's a thread without photos?

42-36 M38A1CCDN3 Jeep with M40A1 106mm Recoiless Rifle. Courtesy Ed Storey


Courtesy CF Image Library


Courtesy CF Image Library


42-8 M38A1CCDN3 Jeep with M40A2 106mm Recoiless Rifle - rear right oblique view Government Conference Cent. Courtesy Ed Storey

[army brat]

WoW There it is 99853! It's official. Thanks for all your help guy's I really appriciate it. I'll have to find out where it went in it's life to get the correct markings for it when I get it finished.

Here are a couple of pic's in its former home, I'll get some more pictures as soon as I start to work on it
Thanks again for all the info

Mark

[Craig S.]

Hello army brat -

Well I had a look today for info on your find. Here's what I found:
1970 Truck Utility 1/4 Ton 4x4 CDN3 Willys M38A1CDN3 106mm Rcl Rifle
CFR#-08733
Serial No. 99853
ECC 121310
Original UIC 0113 CFB Borden
Acquired date 01 Jan 1970
ERN 30104
Holding unit history shows -
01 Jan 1970 to 31 Jan 1983, UIC 0105CFB/ASU Gagetown and
31 Jan 1983 to 26 June 1986, UIC 0113 CFB Borden
Modification history is listed as 2 mods completed but no description of what they were. Modification publication reference is 30-010-000/CF-002 and 30-010-000/CF-003
Completed Work Orders are shown for period between 30 Sept 1977 and 08 Nov 1983.
- 30 Sept 77, UIC 2208 ADM(Engineering and Maintenance) branch owned it, Gagetown UMG performed work, in for preventative maint.
- 30 Nov 77, UIC 2037 CTC HQ owned it, Gagetown UMG performed the work. 2104 miles and $17.00 in parts. In for corrective and preventative maint.
- 12 June 78, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, BMS Gagetown. 3504 miles and a whole $2.00 in parts. This particular corrective and preventative labour shows Trades 101,105,302 and 411 having performed the work. I'm only familiar with trade 411 as being the code for vehicle technicans. Unsure what the other codes are. Trade 101 is quite frequent in the other Work Orders as well.
- 16 Nov 78, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG. 4630 miles, $5.00 in parts and 9.0 hours preventative miant.
- 16 Nov 78, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, BMS Gagetown, 4627 miles and $38.00 in parts. 24.5 hours labor for this one. BMG and UMG it would seem at the time, performed some jobs the other didn’t(?) and vice-versa.
-16 Jan 79, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG, 4931 miles. In for 2.0 hrs Preventative maint.
- 07 June 79, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG, 5628 miles and $10.00 in parts. Both preventative and corrective maint.
- 27 Nov 79, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG, 6495 miles and $113.00 in parts. First modification listed at this time and it took 1.5 hrs by trade 101; the rest of the labour was preventative and corrective.
- 13 Feb 80, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG, 6566 miles and $68.00 in parts. Second modification was done by 411 in 2.0 hrs. Preventative and corrective maint followed.
- 18 Feb 81, UIC 0105 CFB/ASU Gagetown, Gagetown UMG, 7986 miles and $352.00 in parts. 10 hrs preventative and corrective maint by trades 101 and 411.
- 08 Nov 1983, UIC 1113 CFB Borden owned, Borden BMS worked on it. Went from 7986 miles to 26273 miles in the long period of time since the last Work Order record. Bet the Jeep didn’t know what hit it compared to previous travels. Only $49.00 in parts and 17.5 hrs labour.
That’s it for info on Work Order details.
VMO No. DP358790 for disposal cut 08 Feb 1987.
Disposed of 23 July 1987 in Serviceable condition for $1635.00.
Last holding notice dated 02 Feb 1988.

Now you’ve got some history on your new to you Jeep. Cheers,

Craig

[jeep_teck]

totally awsome


you guys certainly know how to get guys going.......this is an awsome find I have been working and restoring mine for the last 5 years,and with the help of all you fellows ,it has been the most wonderful trip down memory lane....
hope the pics followed



p.s.
guns are still available for restorations..

mark.

[maple_leaf_eh]

You guys are just too cooperative just giving away the goods. If you were running a brothel, you'd go broke!

Clive: Any comments on when the CFR lists will be available in a more complete form?

[army brat]

I have to thank everyone for all the information on the M38.
It's so great to have the history for the life of the M38 during it's time with the DND.
I will be sure to post pic's as soon as I start to work on it.

Thanks again

Mark

[servicepub (RIP)]

OK, I don't have my copy of "Staff Duties in the Field" close at hand. Who can ID the tac sign on the bumper?
Also, it appears the the Equipment Classification Code (ECC) is incorrect. It should read 121310

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Clive: Any comments on when the CFR lists will be available in a more complete form?

Ooops! Missed this post somehow
It took me almost 30 minutes to crop the three pages of M38A1/106mm data and merge as a single image. This is because of my really old version of Adobe. So with over 400 pages I am not looking forward to the task ahead.
I need DND to clarify why they included "M151" in the category description and "M38A1CDNx" in the ECC Description. Once that is clarified I may offer the CD, with appropriate images, on a CD at a reasonable price, to the general public. Of course this will include an obscene profit margin.

[army brat]

Well
I started to strip the paint and bondo off the M38 and I have to say it is in good shape so far!
I took of the roll bar... 1st thing to go! and started in the back end and worked my way forward.
Man the guy that use to own this was a master with bondo! Did you know if you slather it on thick enough you can fill bolt holes! Well at least he didnt braze them!

I'll post more as I go, I am hoping I can get away with a little filler and some high build. I'll have to do some fab work in the back, nothing a brake won't handle.

[maple_leaf_eh]

The tactical sign is airborne infantry. Crossed bandoliers with a "gull" wing airborne inside the bounding box. Probably CAR in Cyprus or 3 Mech Cdo (but did they do a Cyprus rotation?), since the battalions did not have airborne companies like they do today.

Originally Posted by servicepub

OK, I don't have my copy of "Staff Duties in the Field" close at hand. Who can ID the tac sign on the bumper?

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by servicepub

... Also, it appears the the Equipment Classification Code (ECC) is incorrect. It should read 121310

Hi Clive. I was looking through this older thread and was interested to see if you are now able to clarify the ECC issue noted above. The info in your Ramtank site shows the CDN3's as having codes of 121301, same as the code on the bumper of the UN Jeep in the photo. However the table (in post #5) listing all the 106RCL Jeeps uses the ECC 121310. Is it possible that the code listing in that table is incorrect? Im also curious why it references M151 in the category column. Thanks for any new info you can add.

I will send you data and photos of three M38A1's for the website in the coming months. Wayne

[Ed Storey]

ECC Code 121310 is indeed correct for a M38CDN3 with RCL Kit. It was common Ordnance practice to stencil the basic ECC vehicle code on the front right bumper of vehicles and this would not necessarily be painted over when the vehicle was modified.

As for the M151 designation on the listing, chalk it up to input error by DND.

[Wayne Hingley]

Thanks for confirming that information Ed. My next question is; what is the second number used for... It seems the six digit ECC already describes the vehicle and its attributes. So how/why is the following one, two or three digit designation used?

[Ed Storey]

The 1, 2 or 3 relates to the model of M38A1CDN so there is an ECC code for every vehicle type within the M model.

[Wayne Hingley]

Sorry, my previous question was not well worded. I was not referring to the CDN 1, 2 or 3 series, but the other digits listed after the ECC on the list from the ramtank page.

Eg: Under M38A1 CDN2 the list shows:

121201 = BASIC = 616
121202 = W/WINCH = 96

Since the "201" means "BASIC", what is the need for the 3 digit 616, or since "202" means "With winch", then why the two digit 96? And so on...

Why was there an additional set of numbers to describe the equipment?

Thanks, and sorry to be a pain with the questions... (just trying to understand the information provided by the experts).
Wayne

[Grant Hopkins]

Wayne, I think that refers to quantity in stock.

[Ed Storey]

It does indicate stock quantity.

[Wayne Hingley]

Makes sense! Thanks Gentlemen.

[army brat]

Well after a long hiatus I'm back at the Jeep.
Brakes done all new lines, wheel cylinders and master, trans back in it with a new clutch. Re built the back sheet metal it was a horrible mess. Tons of work finding and fitting, blasting and priming. Just a bit more blocking and she's ready for paint. It's ready to fire but I'm going to wait until I have the paint on it.
I will post pics shortly

[army brat]

I know it looks like a horder garage but I just picked it up after being kept remote for 3 years

[army brat]

Well more work on the jeep, my friend and I got ambitious and decided to get it going, after almost 30 years of sitting it fired up, just needed the points gapped.
Lots of oil smoke ( I'd been putting oil in the cylinders and turning it over a few times a year) my fuel tank repair even worked. I was thrilled! We even drove it around, it was so neat to see my jeep actually moving under its own power.
Lots of work to get it to this point but very rewarding.

[army brat]

Back in the garage after a long day.
I think we must have put 10 miles on it running around at my buddy's farm.
No leaks and all working.

[army brat]

It's been a good couple days, I have the fenders hung, and inners painted, I shot the front frame rails, board filed and blocked the passenger side and straightened out the back.
I'm going to shoot the inside of the tub tomorrow and paint some of the bits jerry can holder, spare holder footman loops etc.

I'll post more tomorrow

[army brat]

Well here it is, at its 1st car show.

Still need the correct tires but it got a ton of attention.

I will post more pics soon

[Robin Craig]

The 106 recoiless kit was, I am led to understand a pre-existing piece of engineering that was first carried out by our dear American cousins.

If that basic fact is true then I would ask the question in what way was our set up different from the American version?

I note a hard radio mount in one of Ed Storey's pictures on top of the rear right fender.

I was speaking to an older and quite accurate former soldier who recalls his unit having these jeeps in his unit (I think PPCLI) but they had a man pack which resided in front of the passenger and the grab rail was spaced off with some kind of extenders and the manpack dropped into that slot. He and I both wondered what stopped it from dropping out of the bottom.

As we are both scale model makers at times, him more these days than me, we happened to be stood in a hobby shop and were looking at the AFV Club 1/35 kit and were considering building it as a Canadian vehicle.

I would welcome comments and debate. I have posted a link to some images of a completed kit.

I look forward to replies.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling.../t/130830.aspx