Vehicle Door Numbers Canada

[Bill Alexander]

Is there any reference for the vehicle numbers as found on the doors of CMP's, etc that stayed in Canada during / after the SWW? (The overseas serials are well documented.)

[rob love]

I would like to know more about this subject myself.

All I have seen is that from pre-war until 1942, the numbers took the form of
41-1-1234.

The 41 was the year the vehicle was accepted into service, the 1 seemed to always be in the equasion, and the next batch of numbers (could be one, two or three or 4 digits) was the unique number assigned to that vehicle.

From what I could observe looking through some unit history here in Shilo, it appeared the numbers were possibly assigned at the local level, since many of the vehicles seemed to be numerically in close order, and for differing vehicle types.

In 1942 it seems to have changed to a different format such as 68-123. I have no idea what the meaning is to this numbering system. Vehicles already in service with the old numbering system were (usually) painted over to the new numbering system.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

I would like to know more about this subject myself.

All I have seen is that from pre-war until 1942, the numbers took the form of
41-1-1234.

The 41 was the year the vehicle was accepted into service, the 1 seemed to always be in the equasion, and the next batch of numbers (could be one, two or three or 4 digits) was the unique number assigned to that vehicle.

My ex Ford 15cwt 11 cab that came from Shilo still had the pre-1942 markings on the door. Only the '1' in the middle was a 'Z' which I always took for truck like in the later system.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Originally Posted by Bill Alexander

Is there any reference for the vehicle numbers as found on the doors of CMP's, etc that stayed in Canada during / after the SWW? (The overseas serials are well documented.)

NOTE: Please use "WWII" not the revisonist "SWW" as some people are now doing. Most people do not know what the new abbreviation "SWW" refers to. I had to ask about a month ago and I have been collecting WWII stuff for about 50 years! World War II has been abbreviated as "WWII" for over 70 years. Likewise for WWI.

I have been studying the Canadian military vehicles markings for about 35-years.

The numbering systems used on military vehicles in Canada (and sometimes seen overseas e.g. on Rams with both D.N.D. and W.D. numbers showing or on an RCAF HUP) in WWII were called D.N.D. numbers. There were two forms - OLD and NEW. It is complicated and the following explains only the basics.

OLD D.N.D. NUMBER SYSTEM

Old D.N.D. Numbers were painted in flat white sold numbers (no webs as appear on stencils) and were 1-1/2" high. They used dashes. There may be versions with the stencil webs, especially if repainted before the end of 1942.

e.g. 42-1-5561 or 42-123

This decodes as follows:

42 = year vehicle was taken into service, usually the year it was made, however a vehicle made in late 1941 for example could have a 42 number if it was not taken into the sytem until early 1942.

-1- = means it was NOT an R.C.A.S.C. vehicle If the -1- is absent, then it was an R.C.A.S.C. vehicle.

5561 = 5,561st vehicle taken on strength that year. Started at # 1. This one happened to be my Dad's Harley-Davidson WLC while overseas in Newfoundland in 1942.

In Saskatchewan in the 1970s I was finding ex-military vehicles with original markings still showing or where I uncovered them by careful scraping as these early markings were painted over. Early vehicles such as Cab 11 DND / CMP trucks and a some early 1942 jeeps had the unit name in abbrviated title in white above the D.N.D. number. e.g. "HAL RIF" [i.e. Halifax Rifles] was on one of my F8 trucks when found (under later green paint). Another F-8 I found had "HQ 11 CDN INF BDE" as I recall clearly visible as the later paint had eroded. Mickey Zwack in Prince Albert ended up with that one as I recall.

No MVs have been seen by me in person or in photos with "Old D.N.D. Numbers" starting with 43 but many 1943 vehicles have been seen (and I have owned several) with the "New D.N.D. Number System" (below)

NEW D.N.D. NUMBER SYSTEM

These numbers were also stencilled in white, about 2" high, and the stenciels left webs (gaps where strips linked portions of the numbers). Various fonts were used.

This system appears to have come into use at the beginning of 1943 and remained in use until the last of the WWII vehicles left the military - as far as I know the last was a 15-Cwt MACH KL out of CFB Chilliwack in the early 1970s. Newly accepted vehicles were assigned these numbers. Vehicles already in the system had numberes allocated and appliced by the holding units. There was confusion of course. There is NOT, repeat NOT, a correlation between the old and new numbers. Proof was found in the Archives of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Museum and Archives when I was Curator there in the form of documents showing old and new DND Numebrs for vehicles. e.g.
For the following Ford F8 Cab 12 trucks on issue to the 2nd Bn Seaforth of C in Vancouver, BC

OLD DND No._____NEW DND No.
42-1-32105______Z.51-105
42-1-3513_______Z.51-106
42-1.3414_______Z.51-107
42-1-3515_______Z.51-108 SEEMS to be a pattern but is is a local blip
42-1-3523_______Z.51-109
42-1-3562_______Z.51-110
42-1-3567_______Z.50-973 Pattern really broken
42-1-3587_______Z.51-111


Only very rarely one can find old army documents such as an inspection repport or accident report that will give more information. (Inspection Report from Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Museum and Archives) e.g.

" Ford 8 cwt Personnel" D.N.D. Reg. No. 42-1-3562 (later renumbered Z.51-110) Chassis Mo. 21570 Engine No. 2G-46393F Licence N.D. 39K (note the licence number changed each year until about 1970).

Under the "New D.N.D. Number" system, R.C.A.S.C. held vehicles ceased to be a separate listing and were now part of the "B" vehicle census (basically softskins as opposed to armour which were "A" vehicles).

A Canadian Army Manual (1 July 1944) explains something of the "New D.N.D. Number" system.

"Vehicles other than motorcycles. will be numbered consecutively irrespective of type or year of issue commencing with D.N.D. number 50-001." In reality as the stencil sets did not have a dash, a period was used.

"Motorcycles will be numbered consecutively irrespective of type or year of issue commencing with D.N.D. number 2-001."

Vehicles brought back to Canada after WWII were renumbered from the British WD number system to the "New D.N.D. number syste,. Thus the "Crerar Trailer" in the Canadian War Museum has a new D.N.D. number. If they were to carefully sand down they should find the original W.D. number. CX____________. The Staghound Armoured Cars were also renumbered.

On 1942 (including Willys W-LU 440-M-PERS-1 ("jeeps" with a small "j") and earlier vehicles one SHOULD find both sets of numbers. On jeeps it was usually applied over the rear wheelwells, rarely on the sides of the hood (bonnet for our UK readers), rarely on the centre of the windshield panel and occasionally on the sides under the doorwells (probably post-war in 1950s).
The RCAF had their own variation - of course! They had the 20,000 and 30,000 number rnages as I recall. They also used a two letter code above the new D.N.D. number. This was usually the first and last letters of the station's name e.g. CX for Comox For two word names they might use the first letter of each word e.g. SI for Sea Island.

As well one has the identifying letters for the category of vehicle e.g. Z for truck, M for Motor Car which system was used for both number systems, as well as overseas. There are confusing examples and changes e.g. easrly categories of Dragoon, Van (NOT a sigs van as we would think today but a typical 15 Cwt for example where cargo box can have a FLAT tarp but no bows to hold tarp up high!) and a new categaory part way through the war "P" for Amphibious (Ford GPA and DUKW but not Duplex-Drive Shermans).

CANADIAN ARMY REGISTRATION NUMBER SYSTEM

About 1951 the Canadian Army Registration Number (CAR) was introduced for NEW vehicles. 1951 Willys M38 jeeps were numbered 51-______. 1952 Ford M38CDN were numbered 52-3_____. There was a system.
1/4 ton = 30,000
3/4 ton = 40,000
2-1/2 ton = 50,000
trailer = 70,000

Later on, by 1967, they had given up on the broad 10,000 number batch groupings. Old number relmained in use but new numbers appear to be more random, using unallocated numbers.

After unifcation this number continued but was renamed Canadian Forces Registration Number (CFR). About 1970 it ceased to be applied to the outsides of vehicles and the last five digits were then applied to the new DND (later CANADA) licence plates with peel and stick decals e.g. my old M100CDN 1/4 ton trailer 53-70216 had licence 70216. On many vehicles the full CFR number was marked inside the cab roof or on the dash, often in peel and stick white numbers. These were later painted over before 1986 but could still be read.

[Bob Carriere]

Wilf

This is from a snapshot home picture Rob Clarke found at a militaria show and gave me.

It is a C8 possibly taken early in WWII in Farnham PQ.....

Took me a long time to understand that ........ R. De Chaud ...... meant

Regiment de Chaudiere
Z
40-1-703

Colin .......I understand the WWII issue but not being ex military what is the meaning of the RCASC abreviation and the significance of NOT being RCASC

...never to old to learn.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All


Just to add to the fun and maybe the knowledge base take a look through the old photos I bought on e-bay several years ago of CMPs in Service in British Columbia. Where visible they many seem to Z two numbers then a dash and then three numbers. But not all of them follow that pattern.

http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/C...20Columbia.htm

Cheers Phil

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Phil

#2 Provost jeep appears to have unit sign of 40 (would be white on black) and that was for Divisional Headquarters

#3 Gun is a 40mm Bofors Anti-aircraft Gun

#6 Spence's Bridge (not Spencer's)

# 15 Cwt Cab 13 (1942-1945 production)

#6, #9, #11,#12 #14 all appear to be of the same accident where a towed Gun, a 40mm Bofors Anti-aircraft Gun slipped off the road onto a down slope ("some ditch!" as Churchill might have said) You can check your original photos to see if the towing vehicle is a 60 Cwt GS Lorry (New DND number would start with L) or a 30 Cwt. LAAT (Light Anti-Aicraft Tractor). If the latter, the New DND number should start with H for Tractor.

#13 CMP Cab 12 15 Cwt. The NEW DND number Z57-092 means it was Z = Truck, and the 7,092nd (or 7,091st? as numbering started at 50-001) vehicle recorded on the new system which started about January 1943. This particular truck would have had a n OLD DND number previously.

The convoy appears to be heading North up the Fraser Canyon from around Military Camp Chilliwack towards Prince George, BC.

There are two options:

1. That this is part of the 8th Canadian Infantry Division (Northern British Columbia), Mar. 1942 - Oct. 1943 Divisional troops based in Prince George
14th Infantry Brigade (Terrace)
16th Infantry Brigade (Prince George)

2. That it is one of the special winter exercises during the war.


Colin Stevens

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All


Just to add to the fun and maybe the knowledge base take a look through the old photos I bought on e-bay several years ago of CMPs in Service in British Columbia. Where visible they many seem to Z two numbers then a dash and then three numbers. But not all of them follow that pattern.

http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/C...20Columbia.htm

Cheers Phil

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

My ex Ford 15cwt 11 cab that came from Shilo still had the pre-1942 markings on the door. Only the '1' in the middle was a 'Z' which I always took for truck like in the later system.

When using the Old DND number system one sometimes had three lines of letters/numbers

Ficticious example as photos are buried right now:

HAL.RIF.
______
Z
_____
41-1-1234

I have never heard of the -1- in the middle of a number being replaced by a "Z".

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

Bob:

Good question.

R.C.A.S.C. = Royal Canadian Army Service Corps

The truck in your photo is apparently a C15, not a C8. Note the step below the door. Front axle appears to be straight so would be 4x2 not 4x4.

The abbreviation does mean Regiment de la Chaudiere but as seen in the photo it is abbreviated

R.DE.CHAUD.
Z
40-1-703

Z = truck
40 the year it came into Canadian Army service
-1- - It was NOT on special issue to the RCASC which had their own number systemwhich was silly as there could be a truck with 40-703 as well!
703 = 703rd vehicle taken on strength in 1940.

The unit abbreviated name would have been painted over in 1942.

This unit later landed in Normandy but this truck almost certainly never left Canada and was used during training. For D-Day. mostly new Cab 13 vehicles were used.

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Wilf

This is from a snapshot home picture Rob Clarke found at a militaria show and gave me.

It is a C8 possibly taken early in WWII in Farnham PQ.....

Took me a long time to understand that ........ R. De Chaud ...... meant

Regiment de Chaudiere
Z
40-1-703

Colin .......I understand the WWII issue but not being ex military what is the meaning of the RCASC abreviation and the significance of NOT being RCASC

...never to old to learn.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Bob's picture is an early 1940 cab 11 C15 with the wooden 2A1 box. Note no air vents.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Colin

Stand corrected on the C15......

But I still do not understand the significance of NOT being on special issue to the RCASC......

... who did it belong to then ????? it was assigned to a Canadian Regiment

.... what would have been a "special issue" a unit..... ??? sent oversea..


Still puzzled......

Bob

[derk derin]

Here are the original markings found on the doors of my Ford 3 ton cab 13 CMP.With some searching I finally found a tag on my steering box with a date 1-43 so I now know when it was built.We had discussed these markings on my door in the past but I would have to search back to see what was said.
Derk.

[Bill Alexander]

The top line, A 19 CASCTC is for A 19 Canadian Army Service Corps Training Centre, originally organized in 1938 as Permanent Force Training Centre 1. It was alloted the A 19 designation on February 15, 1941.

[rob love]

A-19 will be the designation for the Canadian Army Service Corp Training Center that the truck belonged to. L is for Lorry, and the remainder is the DND number assigned to the truck.

The date on the steering box is a casting date. It may have been a while before that casting made it onto the truck, so that may not be the best way to date the vehicle. It is also possible the steering box got changed out at some point. However, since your truck has the holes for the bumper reflectors, and does not have the FORD script on the cowl, that date is possible.

[Gordon Yeo]

Here is a door number in the Chev 60 cwt that was a signals truck. What would the door numbers represent on this vehicle?

[servicepub (RIP)]

From the 1920s to approx 1942-43 the Canadian Army operated two parallel vehicle fleets. The first was managed by the Master General of Ordnance (MGO). These vehicles were issued to individual units/schools.
The second fleet was the RCASC fleet and consisted of vehicles operated solely by the Royal Canadian Army Service Corps. These included staff cars, base maintenance vehicles, buses, specialty vehicles such as ploughs (plows) but not vehicles unique to a Corps (Engineers, Ordnance, etc.), transport and supply vehicles and others. RCASC vehicles were operated by RCASC personnel.
Clear as mud?

Clive

[Bob Carriere]

...must be getting dummer with old age....

..... or was it a ploy to Kornphuse the enemy ????

what is the differece between a RCASC truck picking up parts from a Railroad depot to a truck from the R. DE Chaud. picking up similar parts from the same RR depot...?

all these years in the Pubic Service should have thought me something...?

Bob C

[servicepub (RIP)]

Bob,
You should know better than to try to find logic in the Army!
Obviously there is no difference in the scenario you identify. However, in most cases it is the role of the RCASC to pick up parts from the RR station while the R de CHAUD vehicle was there to support unit training. This doesn't mean that the Chaud CO couldn't order his driver to do a pick up but if the goods were in the military supply system and had to go via the QM Stores prior to unit/individual issue then it is most likely an RCASC lorry that would be dispatched, by the QM, to pick up the goods.
To over simplify the difference between the two fleets, MGO vehicles were issued to units to provide support to the unit while RCASC vehicles were to provide support to the Army.

Clive

[Bob Carriere]

.....it's starting to make sense.....

I am leaning toward a not RCASC marking for my truck..... such as.....
R. DE Saleberrie (aka regiment de Hull) which was an armored corp. ...... will need to contact the archivist for the regiment to see what they were issued in 1940..... or even waht status it had in 1940.....

Bob C

[Bill Alexander]

Hi Bob, The R de Hull were converted to armour on April 1, 1946. They were organized as an infantry battalion and served as one during the Second World War, when mobilized on July 29, 1941.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

When using the Old DND number system one sometimes had three lines of letters/numbers

Ficticious example as photos are buried right now:

HAL.RIF.
______
Z
_____
41-1-1234

I have never heard of the -1- in the middle of a number being replaced by a "Z".

Ahhh...I misunderstood. You're talking about the "1" in the lower number, I was talking the "Z" in the middle between the two white lines. The Z seem to follow the overseas system where "Z" is truck, "T" is tracked, etc.