combat wheel info

Corey Myronuk · #1 25-11-09, 04:54

Hi all, i'm working on an F60L cab 13 and i need to replace a few of the studs and nuts that hold the two halves of the wheels together.I was wondering if anyone had specs,or a source for a suitable replacement/part number or what have you.
A friend of mine says they look like 7/8" British Fine thread, is this true?
I'm going to need ten of each.

I really want to get this one rolling...

thanks

Grant Bowker · #2 25-11-09, 11:58

My measurements say your friend is correct, that the thread is a 7/8 fine Whitworth. Unfortunately, I haven't found a modern source for the studs or nuts. The nuts are sometimes available from people who are scrapping a rim that would be unsafe for use. If I were scrapping a rim, I would also recover the studs since I don't know another source for them (but it would be an effort to remove and clean up the studs). Even cleaning the threads isn't as easy as you might think because the taps and dies seem to have pretty much disappeared too.
Have you tried contacting LWD Parts?

BCBlitz · #3 25-11-09, 14:48

I know this is not 100% original , but why could a more modern fine metric thread or a SAE thread be used as a stuff ?, the average guy would never know as well there may be a modern source to get new ones for a newer truck ?

sure would be easier dont you think ?

Does anyone have a pic and measurnments of a NOS one to see exactly what the measurments are ?, I bet if you do enough searching a person could find a replacment and save alot of hard work ??.......... maybe

Grant Bowker · #4 25-11-09, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCBlitz

I know this is not 100% original , but why could a more modern fine metric thread or a SAE thread be used as a stuff ?, the average guy would never know as well there may be a modern source to get new ones for a newer truck ?

sure would be easier dont you think ?

Does anyone have a pic and measurnments of a NOS one to see exactly what the measurments are ?, I bet if you do enough searching a person could find a replacment and save alot of hard work ??.......... maybe

I've considered turning the appropriate studs from modern bolts (SAE so that the same set of wrenches fit everything on the vehicle) or using modern studs, if suitable exist, for the 20 inch wheels. You've probably seen and measured enough to know the studs are different on the 16 and 20 inch wheels. (not the threads, just the heads, different welding to the whhel half as well)
If you go to modern threads, consider doing enough so that the whole vehicle, or your whole collection, are the same so you don't have to remember which nut fits which wheel.

gjamo · #5 25-11-09, 21:08

A quick web search reveals many suppliers of BSF wheel studs. Here is just a couple of examples.
They also tell me that Scania trucks use this thread form.
Cheers,
Graeme

http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle/hubs_...tuds_nuts.html

http://www.laxmiautofasteners.com/bolts.html

Grant Bowker · #6 25-11-09, 21:46

Is BSF the same as Whitworth Fine 7/8-14? (don't the Whitworth threads have a 55 degree form instead of the more normal 60 degree?)
The shortest knurl length I saw on the Alko page for 7/8 BSF is 17 mm, much longer than the thickness of the two parts of a CMP rim. But the web sites do make a starting point. At least the wheel half joining threads are all right handed.
See Tony Smith's note on the thread below - I was working from (presumed faulty) memory when I wrote the above.

Tony Smith · #7 26-11-09, 00:40

The thread is on the wheel halves is 7/8-11 aka 7/8 BSF.

And I have also heard that Scania and MAN trucks use this size as wheel nuts.

E-bay UK regularly has listings for BSF and Whitworth taps and dies, so if a wheel stud with a long knurl is available, you could turn down the knurl on a lathe and re-thread it.

And have you contaqcted Dirk at LWD? He may have NOS ones in stock?

Corey Myronuk · #8 26-11-09, 02:10

i have some inquries out to the suppliers in the links you posted.maybe they'll be able to line us up with spares from the India pattern trucks lol.

worst case i'll head over to a friends place,try and get him to cnc us some.
does anyone have any intreest in these or other small parts we can bang out?

if so let me know.

thanks for your responses.

Bob Carriere · #9 26-11-09, 22:36

The stud / nut problem for CMP rims is a problem shared by a lot of us..... if a suitable replacement could be sourced or made with CNC it would be popular.

We have given up trying to find the elusive taps and dies from EBay..... would be nice if someone spots them to post on the For Sale section......

We have numerous rims at the banr that have damaged studs...... some were so rusted....see welded with road salt..... that when we applied heat and the torwue wrench the nuts came off but the thread had "galled" almost smooth on the nut and on the stud.

Our searches for available modern truck wheel studs showed they were not available in the ODD 7/8...... 3/4 and 1 inch were available.

On a 20 inch rim the studs have a mushroom cap and would be more readily removable than the 16 tappered flush welded studs which would require fancy drilling.

I acquired a rolling Ford F15a rolling frame a while back... on all 4 16 inch rim the rim studs had been replaced with large course thread bolts and nuts.... looks weird....but... the bolt head on the back side did not intefere with the rims installation..... we are using them as yard tires for moving frames carcasses.

Boob

BCBlitz · #10 26-11-09, 23:37

So does anyone have actual measurments or pics of a good or NOS one to use as a example ? both for 15cwt and the larger 30 and 60 cwt ?

there has to be a stud out there that would work bot o 15cwt and larger trucks

Now the search is on, I love a challange to find stuff, any more info and pics or measurments would help.

Grant Bowker · #11 27-11-09, 02:08

15 and 30 cwt both used 16 inch rims and to the best of my knowledge, the same studs (almost flush on the innner face). The 60 cwt and FAT used 20 inch that had mushroom headed studs. Feel free to post the dimensions from your best studs for our benefit. When you find a modern source there will be many appreciative CMP owners. Even better if the source has branches in North America, Europe and Australia and elsewhere so we don't have to pay large for shipping, handling, Customs etc.

Lynn Eades · #12 27-11-09, 03:41

BSF is the fine thread as opposed to whitworth which is the coarse British thread. both have a 55 degree included angle.with a rounded valley, and flat crests, while UNC/UNF have a 60 degee included angle, with flat valleys and flat crests. Thats how I understnd it anyway.
On thread forms. A turned thread from a lathe etc, will not be as strong as a roll formed thread (which the originals probably were) because the "grain' in the metal is cut by the lathe tool, whereas the grain in the roll formed thread follows the profile of the thread.
I think many "British Motor Lorries" have used 7/8 BSF threaded wheelstuds.(often 10 stud)

cletrac (RIP) · #13 27-11-09, 03:44

Maybe it's the prairie climate but I haven't come across a stripped or broken stud yet on my collection of CMPs. One rear wheel on the HUP had come off on the previous owner when hauling about 100 bushels of grain and he welded in standard bolts to replace them. I just found another complete hub setup to fix it. The wheel came from Yellowknife (1300 miles away) but you can't let something like that stop you.

Tony Smith · #14 27-11-09, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

The stud / nut problem for CMP rims is a problem shared by a lot of us..... if a suitable replacement could be sourced or made with CNC it would be popular.

We have given up trying to find the elusive taps and dies from EBay..... would be nice if someone spots them to post on the For Sale section......

Boob

Robert Pearce has done just that for you Boobie

Grant Bowker · #15 27-11-09, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

BSF is the fine thread as opposed to whitworth which is the coarse British thread. both have a 55 degree included angle.with a rounded valley, and flat crests, while UNC/UNF have a 60 degee included angle, with flat valleys and flat crests. Thats how I understnd it anyway.
On thread forms. A turned thread from a lathe etc, will not be as strong as a roll formed thread (which the originals probably were) because the "grain' in the metal is cut by the lathe tool, whereas the grain in the roll formed thread follows the profile of the thread.
I think many "British Motor Lorries" have used 7/8 BSF threaded wheelstuds.(often 10 stud)

I think I'm starting to understand better, but I have seen references to BSW fine (usually with the word obsolete included) one web site is http://www.gewinde-normen.de/en/whit...ne-thread.html
I'm with you that I wouldn't choose a cut thread for maximum strength, but I might be willing to turn the head of a rolled bolt to make a mushroom or tapered head to weld to the rim. After all, the metallurgy can be altered by the act of welding the stud in place onto the rim so this might not cause a serious loss of strength. Also, the weld is as much to stop the bolt from turnig as it is to stop it pulling through the rim.

Paul Singleton · #16 27-11-09, 23:25

Dormer still lists a die in their catalogue.

http://www.dormertools.com/

It is on page 23 in the catalogue.

http://www.dormertools.com/sandvik/2...et/s003591.nsf

F350

BSF TPI e-Code
7/8 11 22.23 2“ 5/8 F3507/8X2

● Adjustable Dies ●

Paul

Corey Myronuk · #17 11-12-09, 05:49

what Lynn was saying about rolled threads is correct.But would the high speed ball milling of the cnc making a round bottom thread root create the same kind of stress riser as a lathe cut thread?They should also be post forming heat treated too right?hmm....

rupert condick · #18 11-12-09, 06:29

lwdparts have some studs nos, if they are the right ones,
i would not worry about the welding in as the original metal was probably very poor anyway compared to today, i would use allen bolts if i was really worried. and fit a collar on the end, and weld that in.
regs
rupert

Grant Bowker · #19 11-12-09, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUUANE

what Lynn was saying about rolled threads is correct.But would the high speed ball milling of the cnc making a round bottom thread root create the same kind of stress riser as a lathe cut thread?They should also be post forming heat treated too right?hmm....

The issue isn't just the shape of the thread root but the rolling process forms the grain stucture of the metal as opposed to interrupting it as a cut thread does.
As comment, they did experiment with press in studs on the CMP wheels and found that the wheel material was too thin to properly hold the studs (hard to believe when we see how heavy the CMP wheels are compared to modern, but they ran tests and had failures...) so they found they had to keep the welded in studs.

Corey Myronuk · #20 22-01-10, 04:01

ok i have a source for the bolts that hold the wheel halves together

,7/8"BSF,9 threads per inch, in 1 3/4" and 2" overall length.grade 8. PM with your needs.
still working on the nuts...

will let you know what i turn up.

cheers
corey

Bob Carriere · #21 22-01-10, 04:26

....are you sure of the thread count........ 7/8 BSF should be 11 t.p.i.

Keep looking for the bolts the TPI will ot matter if we can find matching nut to the bolts.

Strange discovery at the barn.... Grant has some 20 inch rims that have the tappered/recessed bolts similar to what you would find on a 16 rim..... usually the 20 inch rims have a flat mushroom head bolts welded on the insed back rim.

Has any one seen that before...??

Boob

Corey Myronuk · #22 23-01-10, 05:49

i'm not up on the bsF thread count but what i have here sure looks like 9 per inch unless im counting it wrong...

Thats what they have waiting for me...i'll take a couple of nuts with me when i go to check them out.

I managed to straighten out the windshield and get the roof back on today.
sorry for the lo res pics.Seeing the windshield laid back like that really bugged me.They bent the roof to fit their crazy plan too.

mafiamike · #23 03-02-10, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUUANE

Hi all, i'm working on an F60L cab 13 and i need to replace a few of the studs and nuts that hold the two halves of the wheels together.I was wondering if anyone had specs,or a source for a suitable replacement/part number or what have you.
A friend of mine says they look like 7/8" British Fine thread, is this true?
I'm going to need ten of each.

I really want to get this one rolling...

thanks

Hi duuane,
ibelive these may be avalibale from holland N.O.S will try and find the address if you are still interested.reguards Mike

Corey Myronuk · #24 03-02-10, 22:06

yes mike any info would be great.thanks. the nuts too if they have them..

if we strike out i guess it'll be the cnc shop.

cheers

corey

Bob Carriere · #25 03-02-10, 22:46

.... that certain employees of the Big three were making some on the factory CNC.....apparently in there spare time..... the big job is writing the program.... then you just feed the machine with free raw stock......

I got 8 of them..... and they are not cheap....and they are almost too beautiful to install on a CMP..... and have asked for 100s more on behalf of all of you.... If they become available I will let you know..... or if you see GM going broke you will know why.....

I am thinking of welding mine on so they can't be stolen....hihihi

Bottom line ....yes they can be made......

You can torture me .... but I can't say anymore....

BooBee

Max Hedges · #26 03-02-10, 22:47

The Bolt with the round head is 2inch long

The other is 2 3/16 inch long

Max

Max Hedges · #27 03-02-10, 23:15

Bob

Just though I would torment you blokes

From down under
Max

Tony Smith · #28 04-02-10, 00:36

Each wheel has 2 starter threads that are slightly longer than the other six (in both styles, Countersunk head and Mushroom). The long studs are 2 3/16" and the short are 1 7/8".

Bob Carriere · #29 04-02-10, 02:31

...you are a sick puppy.....

Where did you found those....? NOS....

How many tons of them do you have..... hahaha .. is that your retirement plan?

Now you are going to tell us the boxes are marked Oshawa, Ontario.

Surprised Dirk does not have them in barrels..... he did chime in at one point indicating he had the smaller drum bolts and studs I beleive....

On the studs..... the mushroom caps are the most commonly seen on 16 inch rims. Interesting that we found some on 20 inch rims.

In your picture the recessed heads seem to be relieved on each side like plow bolts..... or was that done for welding penetration....?

BooBee..... envious.

Always something else to discover.

Lynn Eades · #30 04-02-10, 10:42

.............It sounds like you did......Nice nuts.