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  #31  
Old 22-12-06, 13:32
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default New info

A 5th July 1942 memo relating to vehicles for the 9th Australian Division from GHQ, MEF, refers to releases, and mentions "To this total must be added some 50 lorries 3-ton portee issued with the AT guns". As at August 1942 there were "W.E." 118 AT 3-ton Portees, with 74 on strength, 44 deficient, and "3-ton with winch" were issued in lieu of the deificiencies. There were 144 FWD Artillery Tractrors "W.E." of which there were 123 on strength, 21 deficient, and again 3-ton with winch were issued in lieu. Do I take it that the 3-tonners were actually 2-pounder Portees which we know were "3-tonners"?

The following Chevrolet 2-pdr Portees were issued to the AIF:
L 4623008, L 4623053, L 4623061, L 4623452, L 4623541 plus
L4516072 L14418712 L4516466 L4514359 L4516492 L4413524 L4514782 L4514865 L4514809 L4514803 L4412964 L4412889 L4514860 L4412893 as @ 25/07/1941 L4516467
[thanks Shane!]
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  #32  
Old 22-12-06, 22:07
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Default Re: New info

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
Do I take it that the 3-tonners were actually 2-pounder Portees which we know were "3-tonners"?
As the artillery tractors were marked as FWD and the 3 ton lorries with winch were not then I assume the lorries were 4X2 and not 4X4. This plus the fact that they were called 'Lorries' and not many of the 4X2 vehicles were fitted with winches (wreckers/breakdown excluded) would point towards these being 2lb portees rather then normal GS lorries.

Still wondering though if any of these Chevrolet portees were 'YS' 160in wheelbase models rather then the 'WB' 158in wheelbase.

Cheers
Cliff
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  #33  
Old 22-12-06, 23:44
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Default Thoughts

Cliff, I looked again at the papers and it does not state whether the "Lorries" i.e. ober 1-tonners, were 4x2 or 4x4/FWD or not. I think that the fact that as we can prove that 2-pdr Portees were issued to the AIF, the suggestion that the issues of these from stocks has grounding. I am no expert, so ask what other 3-ton CMPs had winches other than .... the 3-ton S/M 2613 C60L 6-pdrr Portees but in the absence of any known delivery dates I can only suggest that they were summer 1942-on assembly, with delivery months later. The only fly in the ointment is that the 2-pdr Portees were officially 30-cwt lorries, and yet we know from the Canadians rated the FAT chassis on which they were based as 3-tonners. I assume that the rebuilds to G/S lorries were also 3-tonners, and not 30-cwt.
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  #34  
Old 23-12-06, 00:53
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Default

I have a photo of 12 cab CMP portee's in convoy formation in the middle East so they could be these.

But why mark the artillery tractors as FWD (four wheel drive or 4X4) and not the lorries with winch?

The marking of one as FWD and not the other is why I assume the lorries with winch are A/ 4X2 and B/ because they are 4X2 and have a winch they are more likely to be portees.

In British english were CMP's generally know as 'lorries' either GS (General Service) or otherwise or Lorries FWD?

Cheers
Cliff
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  #35  
Old 23-12-06, 07:19
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default AWD

The War Department used FWD to describe tractors such as the Quads..Guy/Morris/AEC/Chev/Ford etc. from at least 1938. Lorries were up from 1 ton capacity, Trucks were up to 1 ton, and it seems "Bantams" were Jeeps in this 1942 paper! The bodies were listed then under types, so Lorry 3-ton GS, or ....Water... or stores, etc.
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  #36  
Old 26-12-06, 15:03
Shane Lovell Shane Lovell is offline
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Default Use of /A and /B on Portees

Cliff

If you are basing your comments on the use of /A and /B on Portees on the 1942 3 Aust A/T Regt material I sent you, I have another theory.

It is that the they were used to differentiate 2 pdr and 6 pdr equipped portees on paper. Thus, the /A were 2 pder fitted while the /B were 6 pdr fitted. I assume the fittings needed for both carriage of the guns and ammunition were different.

cheers

Shane
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  #37  
Old 26-12-06, 22:44
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Default Re: Use of /A and /B on Portees

Quote:
Originally posted by Shane Lovell
Cliff

If you are basing your comments on the use of /A and /B on Portees on the 1942 3 Aust A/T Regt material I sent you, I have another theory.

It is that the they were used to differentiate 2 pdr and 6 pdr equipped portees on paper. Thus, the /A were 2 pder fitted while the /B were 6 pdr fitted. I assume the fittings needed for both carriage of the guns and ammunition were different.

cheers

Shane
No I am not basing this on the material you kindly sent me Shane but rather on some material you sent David where it refers to artillery tractors as 4X4 but trucks with winches as neither 4X4 or 4X2. (look at David Haywood's 3 post up from here)

My question is are these trucks noted as 3 ton with winch accually portees and or MCP's or CMP's. If CMP's why are they not also designated as 4X4?

Still trying to find out if any 1940/41 model YS Chevrolet 160inch wheelbase 4X2 trucks were used as portees.

Cheers
Cliff

PS> I hope this post is understandable
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  #38  
Old 27-12-06, 02:14
Shane Lovell Shane Lovell is offline
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Default Portee material

Cliff

Understandable. For your info I probably should explain where I have been and what I have from a research perspective.

I started from the perspective of wanting to build a model of a CMP portee with a 2 pdr gun.

Looked at war diaries of 1, 2 and 3 Australian A/T Regts. Of these, only 3 A/T Regt has any info, and it is very detailed. 1 A/T Regt went to Greece, however, there are no entries for their time there. Pity really, as I'd love to know more about any possible use of portees in this campaign. 2 A/T Regt is also pretty slim.

71 LAD (att 3 Aust A/T Regt) is a corker. They generally include copies of their monthly work load. This includes the WD no, unit and work carried out for each vehicle duirng the month. Ohh for all AEME diaries to have this material, especially the armoured units.

I then went and looked at Liaision officer reports. Quite a bit of material her, primarily related to difficulties equipping units, and the use of captured Italian pieces.

The CO of 3 Aust A/T Regt has his personal papers lodged at the AWM. Unfortunately, these have not yet been access examined, though I have commenced the process. We'll see what they provide.

Hope this helps. Email me your snail mail address to work and I'll send you copies of everything I have.

cheers

Shane
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  #39  
Old 27-12-06, 11:47
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Default

Thanks Shane I will do. I would like to build a 1/35 scale model of a 'YS' model Chevrolet Portee using the Tamiya LRDG Chev kit as a base but want definate proof they were used as well as the 'WB' 1940 Chevs.

I also find this very interesting history wise and while I originally started off collecting information to make models I now find myself looking and collecting any information I can on WW2 Australian Forces vehicles, especially softskins.

Cheers
Cliff
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  #40  
Old 28-12-06, 00:52
Shane Lovell Shane Lovell is offline
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Default Aussie softskins

Cliff

I know exactly what you mean regarding being drawn further into the historical research area. I find it happening to me all the time and even though my principal interest is Australian armour I have diverged to include Portees and Tank Transporters. Worse yet, I find myself drawn into further into 'B' vehicles when I find material of interest to David Hayward.

Can't add anything regarding the conversion of the tamiya LRDG Chevrolet, however, in reviewing my hard copy material on 1 Aust A/T Regt, noted they were issued Bedfords to carry their 2 pdrs whilst in the UK. They were an element of the Australian forces that went to the UK and didn't arrive in the ME until early 1941, which explains why they missed Operation Compass.

The real core problem from a portee perspective is the lack of an injection molded 2 pdr at a reasonable price. Are you aware of the injection Bofors 37 mm. You can also get an ABER etch set for this kit.

cheers

Shane
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  #41  
Old 28-12-06, 01:05
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Default Re: Aussie softskins

Quote:
Originally posted by Shane Lovell
Cliff

The real core problem from a portee perspective is the lack of an injection molded 2 pdr at a reasonable price. Are you aware of the injection Bofors 37 mm. You can also get an ABER etch set for this kit.

cheers

Shane
Yes there is only the Sovereign 2000 resin/whitemetal kit for the 2lb gun and a kind US friend sent me one of the plastic 37mm bofers kits which I have not opened yet.

I emailed my address to you at the work addy. The home addy one bounced back to me. Just working through the Northern Command war diaries on line at the AWM and tracking down 5 Motor Regiment which was based at Gympie in 1941/42. 1 Lt Field Ambulance appears at Gympie in Jan 1942 as well. Will look locally for more info as well.

Cheers
Cliff
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  #42  
Old 02-01-07, 14:50
Shane Lovell Shane Lovell is offline
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Default Cliff - I was wrong...

Cliff

I was wrong in saying that no Australian units during operation Compass had 2 pdrs or portees. I have been looking at the 6 Aust Div organisation on another site and found that the anti - tank companies of 16 and 17 bdes had some; 16 A/T Coy had 9 and 17 AT Coy had 2. Further investigation in the 16 bde on line war diary for Jan - Feb 1941 categoriacally states the use of one gun from a portee. I need to investigate this further.

cheers

Shane
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