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  #1  
Old 08-11-19, 16:55
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Robin Craig Robin Craig is offline
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Default Canadian snow related equipment post WW2

After discussion with Hanno I am posting here for the minute and maybe in the future he might move it.

So, please, one and all, if you have something related to being a soldier sailor or airman that is specific to winter operations and not part of a vehicle, this is the spot for it to go.

Please try to keep on topic and not have thread creep.
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Old 08-11-19, 17:03
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Default 10 man tent pole

I find it fascinating how such a simple piece of kit as a tent pole can end up with some complex and intricate engineering and design.

I have two examples in my collection, the orange one I have two of and will willingly part with FYI

The orange one has a date of 1973 on it but when it first came into service or went out I dont know.

The pole has a cap that unthreads and then sections deploy with a bayonet lug internally holding each section up and final height setting is with a cross pin at the bottom which mine is missing.

The spike on the top has a cross drilled hole for what I am not sure, maybe a washer and R clip.

The bottom has a dimple and I am sure there was a base plate but I do not have one.

It is from an era when all snow kit was orange for finding in the snow
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tent pole 01.jpg   tent pole 10.jpeg   tent pole 08.jpeg   tent pole 05.jpeg  
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Old 08-11-19, 17:11
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Default 10 man tent pole

The second design is mostly aluminum and is equally complex in design and materials and manufacture.

Firstly it has a meaty hing mechanism instead of several sections.

The fine tuning of height or final adjustment is done by means of a threaded section. However for speed, the nylon type locking collar can be slid out of the way and then that section can be telescoped and then slide the collar back and final threading can take place.

I have pictures of them side by side for comparison and size.

I have to thank Eric Booth for very generously giving these to me knowing I am collecting items snow related. Thanks mate.
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tent pole 09.jpeg   tent pole 04.jpeg   tent pole 02.jpeg   tent pole 03.jpeg  
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Old 08-11-19, 17:45
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Default Sled mans or toboggan small

This next item is a bit of a curiosity as I have not seen them before and because of the documentation that Eric Booth gave me that was attached at the time he acquired it. Documentary evidence is always interesting.

It seems this was a small one person toboggan and hauled using a harness rig and some cordage which I do not have but will recreate in due time. The material for the toboggan is fiberglass with that weird engineered pressed wood stuff as the runners held on by rivets.

The green harness is alleged to have been for it. Interesting is the name for it.
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toboggan small 01.jpg   toboggan small 02.jpeg   toboggan small 03.jpeg   sled toboggan harness 01.jpg   sled toboggan harness 02.jpeg  

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Last edited by Robin Craig; 08-11-19 at 18:07. Reason: inclusion of tag
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Old 08-11-19, 18:09
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Default Sled / toboggan disposal tag

I wasn't able to include this above as I had reached my image limit.
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toboggan tag 02.jpg   toboggan tag 01.jpeg  
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Old 08-11-19, 18:13
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The hole on top of the poles was normally for a washer and a cotter pin. The soldiers were forever coming to me for the pins, as they would bend it over each time and wreck them. The reason for the pin you ask? Because the guy who would crawl into the tent to place the pole into the hole (he was called the pole man) would have to stand there until the rest of the guys got tension onto the guy ropes.

At one point I actually made up washers with a little chain and the pin, hoping they would quit losing them. It didn't take long before I quit making those up. Perhaps if I painted them orange.

There were also those little plastic orange tent pegs...useless in the arctic temps with frozen ground. They would be replaced by 10 or 12" steel spikes. Of course, when you went to move the troops would merely toss the guy ropes with nails still attached and fold up the tent. That way, when they set it up again, they could have that planetarium effect of seeing daylight thorough the dozens of holes that were now in the canvas. The mat techs would then scrap the tent, depending on how many holes there were. Remember they got a fresh set of dozens of holes for each teardown and movement.

Re the toboggans, those 100 pound ones could be found in aluminum or fiberglass. There is also a white canvas cover for them, similar to that used on the 200 pound toboggan. Some of the toboggans can be found with the C/l\ on them along with the other nomenclature, although I have only seen post war versions of these toboggans. I used to keep one in my MRT as it was perfect for moving vehicle battery's along the gun line when you had to do repairs on the M109s. .
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Old 08-11-19, 18:48
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Rob, if ever you see a cover there is a home here for it. I understand about the pin and washer on the top of the poles. Understandable.

As far as the pegs and the resultant holes I have seen that first hand when out with the CF and the reaming troops got when the QM staff saw it gong on.

I was about talk about pegs in another post.
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Old 08-11-19, 18:55
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Default Candle holders

At some point candles were issued. This mouse gnawed example is the only one I have, I am looking for another or few.

These holders were both designed I am told, to attach by means of the spring to the tent pole or be pressed into the ground. One is missing it's spring and I will buy something available locally
Attached Thumbnails
candle holder 04.jpeg   candle holder 03.jpeg   candle holder 01.jpeg   candle holder 02.jpeg  
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  #9  
Old 08-11-19, 18:56
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extra picture from previous post
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Old 08-11-19, 21:33
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I've never seen the candle holder...very much like
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Old 08-11-19, 22:48
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Nice start at building up a Arctic Tent group. Find a WW2 heavy canvas sigs satchel and start filling it with the stuff like candle holders, candles, slip joint pliers, flat tip screw driver, Coleman stove generators, Coleman lantern mantles and generators, canvas sewing kit, roll each of gun tape and para cord. You have the orange ground disks for those poles, they tended to freeze to the ground and get overlooked when packing up in the dark. The small toboggan was for the five man Arctic tent and I think/recall the orange pole was a five man tent item also, the top end of the pole with the hole was as Rob L pointed out for a washer and pin, in practice we just left the pole attached though the puckered orifice at the tent apex to save time and effort. Also wrap para cord around the pole 5-6 times and tent apex and tie off tightly to further secure the pole to tent . The green harness is for either the five or ten man toboggan groups..........one size fits all.

Last edited by James P; 09-11-19 at 01:08.
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Old 09-11-19, 01:30
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Rob, James and Charlie thanks for your comments,

I have a tent itself and once repaired I will show that.

Slowly assembling the items is the way any of us gather a collection, but also spread the word that we are looking for things.

I have a really nice piece currently under a purchase process.

A ten man toboggan so far eludes me, I have been offered one locally at a price I just can't afford but I know where it is and if I get enough work on my side job I may be able to put it under the Christmas tree . . .
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Old 09-11-19, 05:08
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Once you get the 200 pound toboggan, you will then need to get the nifty GPMG mount that clamps onto it and an M1919A4 (or C1 or C5A1 clone) GPMG along with T&E and pintle to finish up the ensemble.



I took a photo of the mount we have at work, and will try and post it tomorrow.
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Old 09-11-19, 13:07
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Default Toboggan GPMG Mount

There was a nice condition one for sale at the last Ottawa show - I believe it has found a home (not with me).
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Old 10-11-19, 03:53
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Here is a photo of the GPMG mount. I always thought they were a Canadian thing, but I have since seen American examples of what appear to be the same mount. I have also seen them using the normal M2 tripod head, although this one has a cast head in white.
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  #16  
Old 10-11-19, 12:34
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Rob I wondered how long it would take to bring that subject up.

As Ed Storey said there was one locally for sale at a show I did not attend and now is the in the possession of Mike Calnan who has generously offered it for me to copy.

It looks a fairly simple item, is the centre portion a manufactured part used elsewhere, I am not a big firearms person.

I am wondering if there is a winter warfare manual that shows a toboggan and all its constituent items.

I am thinking an aluminum shovel, the Coleman stove and lantern, the billy can set to name a few.
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Old 10-11-19, 14:08
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The center part is unique in the white version, but can be substituted with the regular black pressed steel version from a normal GPMG M2 tripod. I have owned several of these things over the years, and never had the cast white heads on them, so I can't explain what the real situation was. Mine mostly came from the local scrapyard, so perhaps the removal of the head was some kind of de-milling. It is also possible the the white ones broke and would be substituted with the black ones, which were removed in the end to go back onto the normal tripods. I was combat arms in the militia, but a mechanic for my regular force career. As a mechanic, my time hauling toboggans was quite limited, and I never saw those gun mounts in use. I think they may have been more of a curiosity. I did get stuck onto a sov-op up to Repulse Bay back around 96, and got to experience the coldest that Canada has to offer during a very long and cold week on the tundra.



Other things that went into the toboggan were the snow saw kit, and there was an actual arctic axe back in the day. The axe had a white fiberglass handle with an orange tip on the end. Even with the orange tip, it was the kind of a thing that if you placed it on the ground, it would be lost. I found a few of them in the springtime over the years.



Optional equipment were the mountain stoves, which we would drag along for extra heat. Once you had the coleman two burner going, the lantern going, and the single burner mountain stove, you could get the tent right up to 21°C. You did have to watch out for pink eye of course.



Naptha could either be in their original cans or else the little one gallon green plastic jerry cans. That, of course, would be in the toboggan as well.



I remember kit lists back in the day for the toboggan. The source may have been the winter warfare series of manuals.
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Old 10-11-19, 16:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
Rob I wondered how long it would take to bring that subject up.

As Ed Storey said there was one locally for sale at a show I did not attend and now is the in the possession of Mike Calnan who has generously offered it for me to copy.

It looks a fairly simple item, is the centre portion a manufactured part used elsewhere, I am not a big firearms person.

I am wondering if there is a winter warfare manual that shows a toboggan and all its constituent items.

I am thinking an aluminum shovel, the Coleman stove and lantern, the billy can set to name a few.
We saw the "billy can" (read one gallon tin can from the mess) during Winter Warfare training, used it one day, then chucked it. Find a nice pot set cooking that nest into each other, source a couple of the green naptha cans, a mitt full of 12 inch steel spikes, axe, saw as Rob points out and you would have a cool collection. Never, not once, did I see the toboggan MG mount in use or training, in fact the first and only one I ever saw is the one on display at the CWM.
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  #19  
Old 10-11-19, 18:42
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James and Rob

I think the MG mount is a bit beyond me at the moment but is interesting.

I am so far grateful for all the pointers given and I am attempting slowly to get all the rest of the gear.

Accompanied by my 97 Skandic it should look good when eventually i get it together.

If anyone has any items I am always willing to buy items. My tahnks to Eric Booth for his generous donation of items.
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  #20  
Old 10-11-19, 19:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Find a nice pot set cooking that nest into each other, .

Almost forgot about those. There is the frying pan with the folding handle that also acts as a lid for the pot, and all of it fits into the pressure cooker.
There is also a bent up piece of roundstock that allows you to hang the lantern off the tent pole.



You will also have to find some boxes of rations, and some rolls of the most industrial toilet paper known to man. (For that, you may well have to travel to one of the all-inclusive resorts in Cuba). And, perhaps a roll of the brown paper towel that is totally non-absorbent.



Another item we saw, but I never actually used in the field, are the special boxes with plastic bag in them to make the giant ice blocks that you would use to make defensive positions.



I have a couple of friends who have assembled the winter kit on the toboggan. It ends up taking up a lot of space. Keep looking fopr your stuff locally, and when the list gets shorter, I can likely find the majority of whats left at my favorite scrapyard©.
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Old 10-11-19, 20:10
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One more item to add to the ever growing list of winter field stores is a arctic cam net (more for vehicles), and a white parachute canopy for the tent. The canopy and some branches is a surprisingly effective way to "cam up" a (green) arctic tent.
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Old 11-11-19, 03:58
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I have an artic cam net now, one of several styles, the small holes all the same size over the whole piece. Need to get it out some day soon.

Eric also gave me the lantern hanger, forgot about that, picture attached.

The ice making blocks, yes I have worked with those, would love a few for display.

Just realised Eric also gave me the cooking set described. Again must get some pictures of that.

Again, credit to Eric Booth, I just bought this from ebay for big money. I have a bare scabbard for the same tools for swaps, again from Eric.
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lantern hanger.jpg   snow knife 01.jpg   snow knife 02.jpg  
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  #23  
Old 11-11-19, 15:13
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Snow shoes and bindings are a "sometimes on Princess Auto" sale item to keep an eye open for.
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Old 12-11-19, 00:37
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Ah yes I already have a pair of those.

I am very thankful for all the input being given
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  #25  
Old Yesterday, 01:46
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Default Snow shoes

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Snow shoes and bindings are a "sometimes on Princess Auto" sale item to keep an eye open for.
Classic trail snowshoes made of magnesium and coated aircraft cable. These things will survive the apocalypse along with the cockroaches.

https://www.herooutdoors.com/canadia...es-w-bindings/

The second style of snowshoes are a tragedy only the Canadian procurement system could achieve. They are too small for the surface area required. I forget whether they are lighter or heavier, but they are shorter. Every QM guy I've asked say they break across the foot arch. Step wrong on a hidden log or bridge in a ditch, and they snap. The soldier is left with a birdsnest of coat hangers hanging off his feet. Will post more pictures and the NSN on the packing label when I find the pic.

The candle holder is a more complex one than I remember. Memory says there was a spring clamp that pinched onto the tent pole like a bicycle pants clip. Still flame orange, but different.

And, let's actually praise the system for buying those cylindrical Thermos brand stainless steel insulated bottles. Don't lose the stopper, but the best I've ever found for keeping tea or coffee warm.
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US_snow_raquets.jpg   oval snowshoes.jpg  
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