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My Father's War - looking for details
Hi,
A couple of years ago I obtained my father's service record and have been researching the units he was with and where they were during WW2 to gain an insight into his service as he didn't talk about it much. Sadly, he died in 2003 so I cannot discuss it with him. So I thought I'd ask on here and see if anyone can fill in some background; where he was and what he did. I'm OK with most of the abbreviations and terminology as I am ex-services (British Army - Royal Corps of Signals). My father was Lt (later Capt) Malcolm Harold Thomas-Peter (also known as Philip Bruce). He was a Royal Canadian Signals officer but served with a number of units during the Normandy campaign. His brief service record (and questions): He joined up on 18 July 1940 in Saskatoon and reported for duty on 20 Aug 1940 at Bassiefield Camp, Kingston. Posted to "L" section, 3 Coy, 3 Div Sigs. Attached to 7 CIB at Debert Camp 15 July 1941 and embarked for England on 28 Aug 1941 arriving 13 Sep 1941 - How do I find what ship he was on? From Sep 41 to May 44 he seems to have been shuffled from unit to unit as part of 1 CSRU and 1 CRU - (is there a difference between these two units?) On 9 May 1944 he is attached to 5 A/Tk Regt RCA, this becomes a transfer (SOS/TOS) on 12 Jun 1944. He embarks for France on 21 Jul 1944 and disembarks either on 23 or 28 Jul (both dates appear in different parts of his record). Where were 5 A/Tk based in the UK and what ship would he have travelled on? Does anyone have details of 5 A/Tk Regt and know which part my father served with and where they were? I know generally he must have been part of Totalize and Tractable but I'm looking for a bit of detail about the unit. On 28 or 29 Oct 1944 he is transferred to 28 CAR as A/Capt. Again I'd like to know a bit of detail, hopefully which part of 28 CAR he was with and where they were. I know this was the period of the Battle of The Scheldt but I can only guess as to what part he played. He is transferred to 4 CADSR on 12 Dec 1944 and apart from a period on the X3 list (2 Feb to 8 Feb 1945) he stays with them until Jun 45 when he is again on the X3 list and comes back to England and is admitted to 4 CGH. My father did mention that the only time he was wounded it was because his unit was bombed by the Americans. An Armoured Div Signal Regt is a big place and though I have tracked where 4Canadian Armoured Div were and what they were involved in, it would be good to know what the Div Signal Regt did and possibly what part of it my father served with. Most grateful for any information and happy to provide more information if you need it. Thanks Paul |
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Hi Paul;
Welcome to the forum. Two questions that will help me formulate a reply to your questions regarding your father's service in the Canadian Army (R.C.C.S.): 1. - Was your father a member of the Non-Permanent Active Militia of Canada at the time of his attestation into the Canadian Active Service Force on 18 July 1940? 2. - Are you yourself located in Canada or the UK? Cheers
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Mark |
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Hi Mark,
The best answer I can give to the first question is "I'm not sure". His record shows that in 1938 he was in the COTC (at the University of Sask) and it also shows he did a "Lieut Sigs" course in 1938 in CSTC. He was working for the Hudson Bay company from 1939 - 1940. On his Canadian Active Service Force Attestation Paper (Officer's Declaration Paper) dated 15 Jul 1940; para 12 asks the question "State unit in active militia in which you are serving or have served" it states "12th District Signals, RCCS" present rank 2nd Lieut. I'm in the UK. Many thanks Paul |
#4
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Quote:
Yes, your father was a member of the Non-Permanent Active Militia of Canada at the time of his attestation into the Canadian Active Service Force on 18 July 1940 - being a Second Lieutenant on strength of No. 12 District Signals, R.C.C.S. - a unit of the Non-Permanent Active Militia of Canada, localized at that time at Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, within Military District No. 12. Cheers
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Mark |
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Re: Your questions
Hi Paul;
To answer some of your questions: - 1. - Quote:
Upon attestation into the Canadian Active Service Force your father was sent to the Canadian Signals Training Centre located at Barriefield, Ontario. Because most of the Signals Officers for the Canadian Active Service Force had been drawn from the pre-war Permanent Active Militia and the Non-Permanent Active Militia, most only had to complete a refresher and qualifying course at Barriefield before posting to their respective units, but by the time your father reached the Canadian Signals Training Centre, the refresher and qualifying course had took on the aspects of a purely qualifying course as it became apparent that the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals would have to assimilate men of little military experience. Accordingly, the 20 week course was broken down into four Groups of Instruction and as candidates successfully completed one group, they passed on to each of the succeeding groups in turn. The first four weeks were spent in the Basic Group, during which the fundamentals of Motor Transport, Electricity and Magnetism, Signals Procedure and Operating were covered, after which the candidate passed on to the Line Group for the next five weeks of training during which the fundamentals of Line Instruments, Field Cable and Line Transmission were covered. The next seven weeks were spent in the Wireless Group, where Wireless Theory, Wireless Operation and Maintenance, and Wireless Laboratory were covered along with conducting Wireless Exercises. The last four weeks were spent in the Tactics Group where the fundamentals of Tactics, Organization and Administration were covered. It was felt at the time that this system of ‘Group Instruction’ would give Signals Officers the sound practical knowledge they would require to make intelligent use of the men under their command 2. - Upon completion of his training he was posted to Serial 726Q - "L" (Infantry Brigade) Section, No. 3 Company, 3rd Divisional Signals, R.C. Signals, C.A.S.F. 3. - Quote:
The information regarding what ship he sailed to the UK on is not readily available, but he would have embarked on Convoy T.C. 13 from Halifax on approx. 28 Aug 41. If you know someone in the Ottawa area, perhaps you could have them do some research for you at the Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH) of National Defence Headquarters (Ottawa), the information regarding Convoy T.C. 13 can be found in Canadian Military Headquarters Report No. 59 of 29 Jan 42.: Title: Situation of the Canadian Forces in the United Kingdom, Winter, 1941-42. Part III: Growth of Canadian Military Force in the United Kingdom, September 1941 - January 1942. Date of Publication: 29 Jan 1942 Type: CMHQ Report Report #: 59 Author: Stacey, C.P 4. - Quote:
The National Archives Kew hold the following copies of the War Diary of No. 1 Canadian Signals Reinforcement Unit from Jul 41 to Dec 44: Title: War Office: Canadian, South African, New Zealand and Indian (United Kingdom) Forces (Dominion Forces): War Diaries, Second World War Series WO 179 WO 179/632 - WD for 1 Signals Holding Unit - Jul to Dec 41 WO 179/1570 - WD for 1 CSRU - Jan to Dec 42 WO 179/2463 - WD for 1 CSRU - Jan to Dec 43 WO 179/3794 - WD for 1 CSRU - Jan to Dec 44 1 CRU - no such unit, could this perhaps read 1 CGRU? 5. - Quote:
Reference: RG24, National Defence, Series C-3, Volume 14567 Serial: 1992, Access code: 90 File Title: 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Canadian Artillery Outside Dates: 1944/05-1944/12 Finding Aid number: 24-60 Unfortunately, I can find no reference to a copy of their War Diary being held by The National Archives Kew. 6. - Quote:
Serial 1992A - Headquarters, 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. Serial 1992B - 96th Anti-Tank Battery, R.C.A. Serial 1992C - 65th Anti-Tank Battery, R.C.A. Serial 1992D - 3rd Anti-Tank Battery, R.C.A. Serial 1992E - 14th Anti-Tank Battery, R.C.A. Your father while serving with 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A., would have been posted to RHQ (Serial 1992A - Headquarters, 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A.). H Troop, No. 2 Squadron, 4th Canadian (Armoured) Divisional Signals, R.C.C.S. (or a detachment of) would have been attached to 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. at this time. For details of the part played by 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. in Operations TOTALIZE and TRACTABLE see their War Diary (held by Library and Archives Canada): Reference: RG24, National Defence, Series C-3, Volume 14567 Serial: 1992, Access code: 90 File Title: 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Canadian Artillery Outside Dates: 1944/05-1944/12 Finding Aid number: 24-60 7. - Quote:
Title: War Office: Canadian, South African, New Zealand and Indian (United Kingdom) Forces (Dominion Forces): War Diaries, Second World War Series WO 179 WO 179/3011 - WD for 28 Armd Regt - Jan to Dec 44 and at Library and Archives Canada (Ottawa): Reference: RG24, National Defence, Series C-3, Volume 14292, Reel T-12764 Serial: 932, Access code: 90 File Title: 28th Armoured Regiment (British Columbia Regiment) Outside Dates: 1943/10-1945/02 Finding Aid number: 24-60 8. - Quote:
9. - Quote:
Headquarters Headquarters Squadron Q Troop (Administration) M Troop (Technical Maintenance) No. 1 Squadron A Troop (Main Div HQ (Wireless)) B Troop (Rear Div HQ (Wireless)) C Troop (Cable) D Troop (Despatch Riders) O Troop (Signals Office) No. 2 Squadron E Troop (Field Regiment) F Troop (Field Regiment) H Troop (Div RCA HQ and A/Tk Regiment) No. 3 Squadron R Troop (Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment) J Troop (Infantry Brigade) N Troop (Div RCE HQ) No. 4 Squadron V Troop (Motor Battalion) W Troop (Armoured Brigade HQ) X Troop (Armoured Regiment) W Troop (Armoured Regiment) Z Troop (Armoured Regiment) with an approximate strength of: 26 officers and 697 other ranks. Copies of the War Diary for 4th Canadian (Armoured) Divisional Signals, R.C.C.S. for the period that your father served with them (approx. May 44 onwards) can be found at Library and Archives Canada (Ottawa): Reference: RG24, National Defence, Series C-3, Volume 14946 Serial: 1926, Access code: 90 File Title: 4th Armoured Divisional Signals, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals Outside Dates: 1943/09-1944/11 Finding Aid number: 24-60 and Reference: RG24, National Defence, Series C-3, Volume 14947 Serial: 1926, Access code: 90 File Title: 4th Armoured Divisional Signals, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals Outside Dates: 1944/12-1945/12 Finding Aid number: 24-60 and The National Archives, Kew holds a copy of the War Diaries for the year 1944: Title: War Office: Canadian, South African, New Zealand and Indian (United Kingdom) Forces (Dominion Forces): War Diaries, Second World War Series WO 179 WO 179/3226 - WD for 4 Armd Div Sigs - Jan to Dec 44 I hope this helps. Cheers
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Mark Last edited by Mark W. Tonner; 06-07-09 at 17:16. |
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Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for this excellent information. I'll certainly follow up the items at the National Archives and hopefully have a trip to Canada for the others. Much appreciated. Paul |
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Re: 5 A/Tk Regt RCA in Operations TOTALIZE and TRACTABLE
Quote:
The following will give you an idea of the roll played by 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. during Operations TOTALIZE and TRACTABLE, it is taken from: REPORT NO. 169 - HISTORICAL SECTION - CANADIAN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS CANADIAN PARTICIPATION IN THE OPERATIONS IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE, 1944 PART III: CANADIAN OPERATIONS, 1 - 23 AUGUST - dated: 14 Jan 47 APPENDIX "A" THE ATTACK FOR FALAISE BY 2 CDN CORPS (OPERATION TOTALIZE) ORDER OF BATTLE 4 Cdn Armd Div 10 Cdn Inf Bde With under command: One Sqn 1 Lothians Two Btys 17-pr A.Tk (Towed) (from 5 A/Tk Regt RCA) One Tp 17-pr A.Tk (S.P.) (from 5 A/Tk Regt RCA) With in support: 15 Cdn Fd Regt One Sqn less One Tp 87 Sqn A.V.R.E. One Tp 8 Cdn Fd Sqn 4 Cdn Armd Bde With under command: One Sqn 1 Lothians One Bty A.Tk (S.P.) (from 5 A/Tk Regt RCA) With in support: 23 Cdn Fd Regt (S.P.) One Bty 17-pr A.Tk (S.P.) (from 5 A/Tk Regt RCA) One Tp 8 Cdn Fd Sqn The Order of Battle for Operation TRACTABLE was substantially the same as the above except for the following changes: 4 Cdn Armd Div With under command: 8 Cdn Inf Bde (for Phase I only) 1 Lothians (Flail Regt) 'A' Sqn 141 R.A.C. (Crocodiles) 19 Cdn Fd Regt (S.P.) One Sqn A.V.R.E., 5 Aslt Regt As you can see, 5th Anti-Tank Regiment, R.C.A. was more or less evenly split between the Infantry Brigade (10 Cdn Inf Bde) and the Armoured Brigade (4 Cdn Armd Bde) of 4th Canadian Armoured Division for both Operations. Cheers
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Mark |
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Just to round this off, I looked at the various war diaries and couldn't find any mention of my father during his time with 28 CAR.
However, I did locate the war diary for 5 A/Tk Regt at the National Archives and found many mentions of him which has given me a much clearer insight into his wartime experiences and actions. He had told my elder brother that the only time he was wounded was when the Americans attacked them by mistake, and there it was in the diary! And on his birthday too! Those war diaries make for fantastic reading too as they give a day by day report on each unit's activities that isn't influenced by hindsight or any wider view of the war. In the 5 A/T diary it was interesting to get a feel for how their attitudes changed as they went from training in the South of England to the Docks at Tilbury and then arrived in France. From anticipating war to being shot at. One early entry has a complaint about the poor organisation of the landing at France, they seem to have overlooked the fact that they arrive a month after D-Day and paperwork by then wasn't top of the list of priorities! A big thank you to Mark as well for all his help. Cheers Paul |
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review
Thank you Mark
The devil is in the details, I wish you were my next door neighbor. I find the advice and support on MLU amazing. lurking in the shadows I have learned many things not possible anywhere else. Thanks to all who post both answers and questions. |
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5th Anti-Tank
Hi there everyone,
This is my first post and i am just having a little difficulty navigating around but I'm sure I will get it. I want to thank you for allowing me to join and become part of the group. I am more than willing to share any/all of my info with anyone who ask. I have done about 2 years of research on the 5th A/T more specifically the 96th Battery. Safe to say thoough i have run across info on the other 3 Battery's as well. I am in possession of almost a complet set of the War Diaries for the 5th A/T as well as the Regimental book 'The History of the 5th A/T. Then there is another book called 'The 5 Days of November', and then the hilight of my collection is a personal account written by Capt Jack Connor of the 14th Battery. I have spoken also with John Honsberger who was in the 3rd Battery. I have done a complete reconstruction of sorts of the travels of the 5th A/T form when they left England thru to Dec 1944 and am still working on it. I have a 3-foot long photo of the entire Regiment as well as one for the 96th Battery. It has been a real honor to keep the memory of this unit alive. Best regards, Scott |
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Thanks in advance, Tim |
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