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  #1  
Old 30-10-06, 02:21
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Riddle for David Hayward....

Bonjour David

Here is the riddle........ while doing a parts recovery at Angus' place a few weeks ago....... my little spied these......

Two C60L.....frame and cab....... on had a huge curved section taken out of the cab on the passenger side to allow a boom to be lowered....... carefully scooped out and curved sheet metal..... side fuel tank was mounted in passenger area..... the second one was complete regular cab. They were fabricated a few weeks apart....... one has a early 40 civilian dask the other has a round face gauge dash.........BOTH are mounted on 16" rims and have the small 15cwt axles front and rear.... rea has typical helper springs.

Here is the first dash plate...
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  #2  
Old 30-10-06, 02:26
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default A week later .....

Sept 22 - 44 they built this one....

Why would this one have an older civilian dash...???

Why would they have been built with the smaller axles and rims....

Would the screws holding the dask plate indicate some attempt at creative vehicle registration....??
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  #3  
Old 30-10-06, 02:32
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Most complete.....

Lastly.... an overall picture of the most complete on with the civvy dash.....
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  #4  
Old 30-10-06, 11:20
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Conundrum!

Bonjour mon ami! Comment ca va?

What a conundrum! Note that these two are Australian contracts, and these are the known ones {known to me}:

4844303101 ENGINE # PR3,998.102 PE-197-12 SEPTEMBER 14 1944
4844303231 ENGINE # PR3,998,204 PE-197-12 SEPTEMBER 18 1944
4844303239 ENGINE # PR3,998,543 PE-197-12 SEPTEMBER 19 1944
4844303420 ENGINE # PR3,999,860 PE-197-12 SEPTEMBER 22 1944
4844303731 ENGINE # PR4,000,888 PE-197-12 SEPTEMBER 29 1944
4844305131

This gives you some idea of assembly rates. I am sure that these were assembled by GM-Holden's but not CKD, as they would have a different sequential number. The assembly dates are in my opinion from the evidence below, the Holden assembly/release dates. The build plates would have been stamped from Canadian blanks in the assembly plant. Note that there is no Plant Code. Compare with these C60S trucks, and the one Plant Code:

48442M60011 ENGINE # PR3,985,819 PE-211-103 MARCH 13 1945 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
4844260046 ENGINE # PR3,935,793 PE-211-103 MARCH 21 1945
4844260050 ENGINE # PR3,985,768 PE-211-103 28 JULY 1945
484422[6?]0112 ENGINE # ? 93 PE-211-103 APRIL 27 1945

These would I suggest have been rebuilt by GM-Holden's after the war. and then re-issued to the services or sold off on the civvy market. I can only imagine that the truck with the round dash has been rebuilt extensively, perhaps after a smash, and has had a new dash put in from the parts bin? Otherwise was it an in-service replacement?

In England GM Ltd in Southampton rebuilt trucks for resale, cannibalising 10 to make 8 or 9, and they also had huge amounts of wartime spare parts in crates. These they then resold on the export market, just about everywhere! How they ended up in Canada, I can only guess....we know that large numbers of military vehicles were acquired by agents who used the cheap Pound to buy up anything that could be re-used and re-sold and trucks were expirted all over the world. Could this have happened in Australia as well? Unless this was part of the reclaim deal that applied in the UK. The Canadian Government reclaimed the best vehicles in the UK and on the Continent and had then shipped back to Canada, leaving the dross to be taken care off under the post-war cash settlement arrangement with the then Labour Government. As we know vehicles then crossed the Pond back again to be issued under the UNRRA plan. Was there a smilar deal with Australasian countries? Note it's an Australian contract, not British Ministry of Supply one FOR Australia.
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  #5  
Old 30-10-06, 11:55
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Keith Webb Keith Webb is offline
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Default Might be an Aussie contract number but...

I don't think these have been South of the equator!

The shot of the complete truck is clearly a Canadian cab, not Austrailan.

The only Aussie cab part in Canada is with GWB... as far as is known.
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  #6  
Old 30-10-06, 12:17
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Not a hundrum Conundrum!

Keith, how do we explain the Aussie contract and the plates that are genuine prima facie? Conversely, what are the plates doing in Canada? Why the smaller wheels?

I am no expert but did Holden always build # 13 cabs? The chassis plates suggest that they were not CKD but rather complete and boxed chassis/cabs. I would certainly expect to see a Holden cab on a chassis with a Holden build plate. That would be when they received a chassis only, and then applied a blank plate, but because it was a kit, a special sequential series starting with # 0001 applied to each of the five assembly plants. This applied through 1958 as well. A Canadian vehicle would have an Oshawa-allocated serial number.

Failing that, all I can suggest is that someone in the past has bought up war surplus trucks in Aussieland, or perhaps a Pacific island or even Malaysia, and then shipped them back to be cannibalised. What is the other truck's cab like?
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  #7  
Old 30-10-06, 12:24
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Default Re: Conundrum!

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am sure that these were assembled by GM-Holden's but not CKD
David. Keith is right. They must have been assembled from CKD, if they were in fact assembled here in Australia, as the photo does show a Canadian type cab.

Cheers
Cliff
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  #8  
Old 30-10-06, 12:36
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default Not CKD?

Cliff, I may be totally wrong but the build plate evidence suggests that some CMPs were not CKD. I am on a learning curve here so bear with me please! Compare the data I posted with:


CLEARLY CKD:
38443P00170 ENGINE # PR3,868,029 1 NOVEMBER 1943 [PERTH-ASSEMBLED]
38443M00221 ENGINE # PR3,933,982 [SYDNEY-ASSEMBLED]
38443M00581 ENGINE # PR3,960,523 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED] 4 SEPTEMBER 1944
38443S01471 ENGINE # PR3,914,461 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]

POSSIBLY SHIPPED COMPLETE:
3844360501 ENGINE # PR3,934,984 E-52-384 [PERTH] OCTOBER 7 1944
3844361290 ENGINE # PR3,946,268 SM-E52-448 SEPTEMBER 22 1944 AUS M [MELBOURNE]
3844361442M ENGINE # PR3,946,252 8 NOVEMBER 1944 [MELBOURNE] SM-E52-448 [WO83S]
3844361308M ENGINE # PR3,94,6264 [MELBOURNE] SM-E52-448 [WO96] 26 SEPTEMBER 1944
3844363565M ENGINE PR3,957,141 [MELBOURNE] SM-E52-448 NOVEMBER 14 1944 AUS M
3844363634 ENGINE # ? [HOLDEN]

Compare build plates:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
CHASSIS C-60448-M
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 3844324971
ENGINE NUMBER PR3940674
ORDER
DATE OF MFG Oct 27 43

HOLDEN-ASSEMBLED:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA LIMITED
CHASSIS MODEL P 106
CAB MODEL [BLANK]
CHASSIS SERIAL 3-8443-60501
ENGINE SERIAL PR3934984
ORDER NO. E-52-384
DATE PF MFG. 10 7 44 [October 7 1944]

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA LIMITED
CHASSIS MODEL
CAB MODEL [BLANK]
CHASSIS SERIAL 3-8443-61290
ENGINE SERIAL PR3946268
ORDER NO. E-52-448
DATE PF MFG. 22-09-44 AUS M


HOLDEN-ISSUED [MUST HAVE BEEN ASSEMBLED]:

CHASSIS WO83S
CHASSIS SERIAL 3-8443-61442M
ENGINE NUMBER PR3946252
ORDER S/M SM-E52-448
DATE OF MFG. 8-11-44 AUS M

Note also the '44 Model truck plates have the Canadian DND designation C-60448-L which leads me to query whether despite previous comments, these two trucks were shipped complete after dismantling by Oshawa, and not assembled from kits of components. Note also please that each Holden plant had its own ideas about serial numbers, plant codes, etc. and one plant (cannot recall which one, possibly Brisbane) usually left off its plant code letter.

Otherwise, open to the floor please!

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 30-10-06 at 12:51.
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  #9  
Old 30-10-06, 13:03
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cliff cliff is offline
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Default

I think I know where you are coming from now David but CKD means Completely Knocked Down which would apply equally to boxes of parts being assembled to a complete truck being dismantled at one end and assembled at the other.

But it still leaves the question of how did these Aussie contract trucks end up in Canada.

Cheers
Cliff
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  #10  
Old 30-10-06, 13:18
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default CKD

Cliff, yes it was General Motors Corporation that is believed to have coined the phrase around 1923. Apart from CKD, which really means kits of parts, loose, crated, and shipped seperately, there was PKD, Partially Knocked Down, which meant say a truck complete and carted but minus glass, paint, body, mirrors, seats, etc. for local assembly, and SUP or Single Unit Packs, where a whole complete vehicle is dismantled and crated up.

So far as we know CKD was tried out on the first 175 Ford and Chevrolet units to the UK of each of C.8, F and C30S, etc. and the problems with lack of components arriving safely led to horrendous shortages requiring re-shipments, parts mixing and matching, etc. After that they went over to PKD although we now know them as the "Packs" starting with "Alpha Packs".

It would appear that as the war went on shipping to certain points was made easier when there was a local Ford or GM subsidiary. It seems that for those destinations chassis only were in some cases sent over, and we know that Holden's built their own version of the # 13 cab and derivations. I tend to call these CKD Cliff, but arguably it should be "chassis only" for local tyres, cabs if apprpropriate, and bodies to be applied. I am at a loss however to suggest:

a) if Holden put together SUP packs as well as chassis-only, i.e. received Canadian-cabbed trucks as well as cabbing/bodying chassis only and
b) how these plates got to Canada!

Can anyone please advise if there was any known form of return shipping of CMPs back to Canada as part of any Canadian-Australian Governmental financial settlement or whether entrepeneurs acquired ex-War Office trucks and then shipped them to Canada for use on the Alaska highway and other projects?
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  #11  
Old 30-10-06, 13:48
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default Maybe.....

David...
Bob may be on to something.....

Would the screws holding the dask plate indicate some attempt at creative vehicle registration....??


What if only the plates were sent back to Canada,the plates then attached to new-used-scrap trucks ,the freight costs bypassed,by the plate owners and the freight costs billed to the government and pocketed..

With war time contracts floating around and post war contracts there was many a scoundrell that would make an easy buck having a buddy in OZ..

Even if the government just brought the plates back for accounting purposes and put on their owm trucks is not inconceiveable..
As a refrigeration contractor and dealer,I would regularly knock the serial plate off and send it in for warranty on DOA compressors that would not be worth the freight costs to ship back to them...so it is an accepted legal business method..
Any thing is possible..
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  #12  
Old 30-10-06, 14:19
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David_Hayward (RIP) David_Hayward (RIP) is offline
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Default How dare you!

How dare you suggest that any Canadian or Australian would stoop so low as to do such a fiddle?

Seriously, I thought about that myself as the second plate looks as though it might have been lifted off in the past, and they are of course screwed down and not riveted. I noticed that all three plates or remnants of them are exactly set out in both cases, and very neatly done. I would have thought that skulduggery would not extend as far as being so neat but who knows? A favourite tale is of a guy who worked for GM ltd from 1947 in the CMP refurb shop. He used to flame-cut open the fuel tanks after syphoning out and selling any fuel, and then derust/paint the interiors before re-welding. He apparently had a marvellous collection of lighters of all shapes and sizes which he used to exhibit to callers. These were found in the fuel tanks, dropped in by squaddies who were dipping their lighters in tanks to top them up, but losing them when the string broke or the Sergeant came along!

The question is: was there a theoretical claim and shipback of Canadian trucks by the Canadian Government in other Commonwealth countries? If there was, then official/unofficial transfer of build plates would make more sense. I have only been hinted to at the sort of money-making scams that went on from about 1948 in the UK as regards exporting WD-surplus vehicles. Circumventing the =C$/US$ exchange must have been one factor.
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