WD Numbers, CAR, CFR

[Michael Dorosh]

Just a quick question - when did War Department numbers first become applied to Canadian Army vehicles? 1939?

When did the WD number stop being used and what was it replaced by? Would I be correct in assuming 1954, and replaced by the Canadian Army Registration (CAR)?

The CAR was replaced by the CFR (Canadian Forces Registration) in 1968?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My research shows that the pre-war system as applied by the Department of National Defence applied to domestic vehicles, e.g.

1938 Model Chevrolet G/S 15-cwt truck DND number Z 38-1-20 serial # 815312825 was photographed in February 1940 in Delville Barracks, Cove, Hampshire with a broken right headlamp and had Ontario number plates, allocated to The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, who were brigaded with the PPCLI. Its driver at the time was Private George Kenyon. Either this truck or a similar one painted the same colour was photographed in England in May 1940, when the Governor-General of Canada, the Earl of Athlone visited the 1st Canadian Division. It was given the Census Number CZ 4205515.

So, the "Z [YEAR] - 1 - [SEQUENTIAL]" series continued it seems to ..'45? for domestic vehicles but those sent overseas acquired the WD-style numbers from say Spring 1940, just after they landed, applied by the Vehicle Census Branch- Borden of the RCOC [1 Det, at Borden, Hants, then Aldershot] from March 1940.

[Michael Dorosh]

So is it a Census number, or a War Department number?

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh
So is it a Census number, or a War Department number?

Same thing. Census number is the more accurate term.
Canadians, forming the 1st Canadian Division (and later 1st Canadian Infantry Division) were part of 7 (Br) Corps - although this formatioh was commanded by a Canadian , Lt-Gen AGL McNaughton. As a component of the British Army, and one whose MT was exclusively of British supply, all vehicles conformed to the British census regime. At an early point the prefix "C" was added.
This numbering schene was limited to the CA(O).
In Canada, the census style yy-n-nnnn (year/number) was maintained. The yy represented the year of acquisition of the vehicle while the n-nnnn represented the sequential number of the vehicle acquired that year.i.e., 38-1-243 represents the 1,243rd vehicle obtained in 1938. I aminformed that this changed in 1942 but I am unsure of this. Postwar it appears that the CAR was yy-nnnnnn where yy is the year of acquisition and nnnnnn is a sequential number - but not related to the number of vehicles acquired in any given year, i.e, a deuce-and-a-half would show 52-537829. When the CFR licence plates came into effect, the same 2 1/2 ton would display a licence showing the 537829 only.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by servicepub
Same thing. Census number is the more accurate term.
Canadians, forming the 1st Canadian Division (and later 1st Canadian Infantry Division) were part of 7 (Br) Corps - although this formatioh was commanded by a Canadian , Lt-Gen AGL McNaughton. As a component of the British Army, and one whose MT was exclusively of British supply, all vehicles conformed to the British census regime. At an early point the prefix "C" was added.
This numbering schene was limited to the CA(O).
In Canada, the census style yy-n-nnnn (year/number) was maintained. The yy represented the year of acquisition of the vehicle while the n-nnnn represented the sequential number of the vehicle acquired that year.i.e., 38-1-243 represents the 1,243rd vehicle obtained in 1938. I aminformed that this changed in 1942 but I am unsure of this. Postwar it appears that the CAR was yy-nnnnnn where yy is the year of acquisition and nnnnnn is a sequential number - but not related to the number of vehicles acquired in any given year, i.e, a deuce-and-a-half would show 52-537829. When the CFR licence plates came into effect, the same 2 1/2 ton would display a licence showing the 537829 only.

Err...Clive...

CAR and CFR numbers consisted of only 5 digits, not 6, i.e. 29264 for a 1 1/4T SEV, 80888 for a 1/4T, 30334 for an AVGP, etc.

CARs were of course prefixed with the 52-, 53-, 54-, etc.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Err...Clive...

CAR and CFR numbers consisted of only 5 digits, not 6,

Thnx, you are correct and my memory is quickly fading....(I'm sure I can find a use for the extra digit )

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I forgot to mention that the Canadian forces, in line with say Dutch and Czech, were allocated certain Census Number blocks, e.g. 42....., and photos often show "C"-prefixed numbers as well as WD-style without prefix.

It would appear that any Canadian vehicles acquired by the British, e.g. in 1940, would have been re-numbered into the British system. This would appear to be very few though at this stage.

Until Census Numbers had been allocated by the RCOC, all vehicles on assembly in the UK to Canadian contract acquired "CMD" prefixes with numbers in batches allocated to each assembly point. This stood for Canadian Mechanization Depot, although there were only two CMDs...and Southampton was bombed 30 November 1940 leaving just Citroen Cars, Slough, premises, as the sole CMD. However Canadian Mechanization HQ remained at 2,3 & 4 Cockspur Street, London SW1 behind the Canadian High Commission. It must have seemed logival to retain the "CMD" prefix...which acted as a "trade plate" to move vehicles around without Census Numbers.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by servicepub
Same thing. Census number is the more accurate term.

The Vehicle Data Book published in 1944 by CMHQ says "These numbers are officialy known as War Department Numbers and commonly referred to as Census Numbers."

???

Why is Census Number more accurate then?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

applied by the Vehicle Census Branch-

The Census Number was just that: a serial number allocated by in the case of the WD Chilwell, and then put on to a record card etc. In other words it was part of a general census of all vehicles, trailers, etc. The record cards that exist show contracts, serial number batches, purchase price, etc. including for theatres other than the UK. Up until say 1940, WD vehicles in the UK had Census Numbers as well as civilian-type registrations in the Middlesex County Council Government-allocated blocks. I am not sure about the Air Ministry but wartime photos seem to suggest that they too used Middlesex and even London County Council numbers, although purely RAF vehicles would have "RAF..." Census Numbers. The Admiralty did their own thing, with "RN". I imagine that they too used Middlesex civvy regos pre-war but I have not seen any photos to check.

Outside the UK, say in Egypt and Palestine, local civilian-type registrations seem to have been used in Arabic and English. e.g. with "WD" as a suffix.

[Rich Payne]

This is an image taken from "Classic Motorcycle" showing a Norton WD16H outfit in RN service. Based on the unusual "pannier" tool boxes, it must be from contract C.6653 or C.7353 - mid to late 1940 - The machine does indeed carry a Middlesex registration.



Civilian number plates seem to have disappeared early on from machines carrying War Department census numbers. Did the Air Ministry and the Admiralty carry on using them ?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The Census Number was just that: a serial number allocated by in the case of the WD Chilwell, and then put on to a record card etc. In other words it was part of a general census of all vehicles, trailers, etc. The record cards that exist show contracts, serial number batches, purchase price, etc. including for theatres other than the UK. Up until say 1940, WD vehicles in the UK had Census Numbers as well as civilian-type registrations in the Middlesex County Council Government-allocated blocks. I am not sure about the Air Ministry but wartime photos seem to suggest that they too used Middlesex and even London County Council numbers, although purely RAF vehicles would have "RAF..." Census Numbers. The Admiralty did their own thing, with "RN". I imagine that they too used Middlesex civvy regos pre-war but I have not seen any photos to check.

Outside the UK, say in Egypt and Palestine, local civilian-type registrations seem to have been used in Arabic and English. e.g. with "WD" as a suffix.

How much of that applies to vehicles in Canadian service?

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh
The Vehicle Data Book published in 1944 by CMHQ says "These numbers are officialy known as War Department Numbers and commonly referred to as Census Numbers."

???

Why is Census Number more accurate then?

"Census number" is the title used on the WWII CMHQ files dealing with this issue, therefor, although "War Department Number" may be the official term I stand by my comment that "Census Number" is more accurate as this was the contemporary term in daily useage.

[rob love]

Originally posted by servicepub
Same thing. Census number is the more accurate term.
Canadians, forming the 1st Canadian Division (and later 1st Canadian Infantry Division) were part of 7 (Br) Corps - although this formatioh was commanded by a Canadian , Lt-Gen AGL McNaughton. As a component of the British Army, and one whose MT was exclusively of British supply, all vehicles conformed to the British census regime. At an early point the prefix "C" was added.
This numbering schene was limited to the CA(O).
In Canada, the census style yy-n-nnnn (year/number) was maintained. The yy represented the year of acquisition of the vehicle while the n-nnnn represented the sequential number of the vehicle acquired that year.i.e., 38-1-243 represents the 1,243rd vehicle obtained in 1938. I aminformed that this changed in 1942 but I am unsure of this. Postwar it appears that the CAR was yy-nnnnnn where yy is the year of acquisition and nnnnnn is a sequential number - but not related to the number of vehicles acquired in any given year, i.e, a deuce-and-a-half would show 52-537829. When the CFR licence plates came into effect, the same 2 1/2 ton would display a licence showing the 537829 only.

Clive
You've missed one batch of numbers. The early war numbers (ie 41-1-1085) started in the 30s and ended as you mentioned in 42. In 43 the vehicles were re-numbered to a different system; the vehicle noted above changed to 52-XXXX (numbers not legible). These number types continued until the more familiar CFR type (CAR ) numbers were adopted postwar.
re the 52-XXXX number, the first two digits did not represent the year, but may have been a regional designator. I have not really noticed a pattern to the numbers. It definately is not the year as the truck it came off was sold off in 46. There are also many of these numbers beginning with prefixes like 68-030 ( a UCmk1), or 56-749 (another UCmk1), and I've noted some in the 80s.

The early number style (41-1-1085) seems to have been assigned by areas. While researching my truck at the Shilo Artillery museum, I noted that sequential numbers (ie 41-1-1083, 1078) were assigned to substantially different vehicles like a 3 ton and a staff car.

CFRs (or CAR numbers back then) were initially assigned in blocks to the SMP fleet, and over the years, as the CFRs get used up, they will skip the blocks still in use. They are now assigned sequentially as vehicles are obtained, but for major purchases blocks of numbers will be reserved. Also, I believe the first 10000 numbers are reserved for overseas vehicles, as I've only noted these low numbers on things like DND owned landrovers or other one off locall procured vehicles.

I'm not sure when the CFR/CAR numbers came to being. I seem to recall an old fire truck we had in Portage la Prairie having a 48-XXXXX prefix.

Peter Ford's old info-ex was a good source for comparing many of these numbers, and the cutoff date for the early to late wartime registration numbers could be clearly seen.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Thnx Rob, I knew that in 1942-43 the numbering scheme had changed but was unsure of what the chamge entailed.
I disagree that 52,53 or 54 are from different regions but I have nothing to base this on other than we had more than three Areas in the post 1950's era.
I think that some of the numbers, relating to older equipment, were special blocks set aside for older stuff.
I have been prowling the halls of Archives and diving through musty stacks of brittle documents in the hopes of putting together the ultimate book on markings - in conjunction with Don Dingwall and Steve Guthrie. However, this will be years away so don't send any money.

[rob love]

Clive
I'm not sure there is any significance to the first two digits. (I'm talking the pre 50s numbers; the post 50s numbers were of course the year, with the exception of guns, which had 00 for the prefix) The difference I have seen in them (some go up to the 80s) must have some rational. As an example, the jump between the two mk1 carriers (51 269 to 56 749) represents 5000+ vehicles. Another carrier from the same batch had a number of 68-030. If these were just carriers or armour, it certainly represents a large holding here in Canada.
I suppose I could try and look in the war diaries at the museum and see if the later numbers were similar within the unit,or by vehicle type.

When I was researching my first CMP, the war diaries for the trucks unit (A4-RCATC) were held in the RCA museum. Basically it was just a compilation of the routine orders. Fortunately, there were entries like: Lt Bloggins is directed to conduct an inquiry into an accident where 15cwt 41-1-1084 struck a gun.

I searched for 2 hours and while I found many census #s close to mine, I didn't find my particular truck. I ran out of time, however, and only read through about a years worth of orders. It was, however, fascinating reading.

Also, regarding the 1 in the early vehicle numbers, (XX-1-XXXX) I have never seen any number besides a one in this location. I would suspect that 38-1-243 would be the 243rd vehicle assigned a number that year. This style of numbering went to 4 digits, so could represent up to 10, 000 vehicles per year held domestically.

Regarding the 1943-1950 type number, I may have made an error. I think they were 5 digits in total (ie 68-123) and not six like I showed in my earlier posting.

A sum up (for clarification) of domestic number systems:

41-1-1085 number type used from 30's until end 42/early 43(?). 41=year, 1=?, and 1085 sequential assigned that year

58-123 number type used from 43 until about 1950, relevance unknown

51-31234 number style used from around the 50s until present. 51 is the vehicles production year, and 31234 is the sequential number assigned to the vehicle, regardless of the year.
For the SMP vehicles in the 50s, each type was in a 10,000 block of numbers, ie jeeps in the 30000 range, 3/4 tons in the 40,000 range, and deuces in the 50000 range, etc. Later, this block style of assigning numbers was discontinued, and numbers were assigned sequentially regardless of the vehicle type. A number could not be used a second time if the vehicle or equipment which was assigned that number was still in service. Blocks could be reserved for larger aquisitions. Also, CFRs can be assigned to high valued technical equipment or any other eqipment for which loomis data (parts cost, manhours repairing) should be captured, upon direction of NDHQ.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I forgot to remind that just as in the UK, up to say 1940, Canadian DND vehicles had civilian registrations, and they were registered in the Province where they were first allocated at one stage. In addition Ontario "Trade Plates" were also used by the DND for trials vehicles. I have thought that the Trade Plates were used later than 1940 for testing vehicles not yet allocated a Census Number but does anyone know better? A photo of a GT in Spring 1940 is the last I can recall.

I have never thought that the middle "1" meant 1,000.....there were jusat not enough vehicles at the time to justify it. I have a complete list of all the 1938 Chevrolet G/S trucks and this seems to confirm my personal opinion.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
In addition Ontario "Trade Plates" were also used by the DND for trials vehicles. I have thought that the Trade Plates were used later than 1940 for testing vehicles not yet allocated a Census Number but does anyone know better?

Ontario licence plates that did not include the suffix "F" (indicating Federal) were placed on vehicles that still belonged to the plant, i.e. trial, experimental, etc... and which had to go on public roads. These vehicles had not yet been turned over to DND so it would be misleading to say that these were "used by DND not yet allocated a Census Number"

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Interesting Clive. I have some of the 1938 G/S Chewvrolet regos, and it may be that PC used "F" for federal as well? However I note from my records that photographic evidence of several 1939 Ford GS 4 x 2 Trucks, has shown that one was registered with 2310 F that was trialled at Camp Borden [no problem there] as well as one registered 1259 C: this latter truck was given a 1940 DND census number Z 40-1- : photographs being taken it is thought in March or April 1940 after the thaw had set in. Another Ford GS truck was registered with 1278 C.

A photograph of that in Dr Gregg's book I think of 1938 Ford Marmon-Herrington truck shows that it carried an Ontario 1938 license plate, 862 C and DND Number 38-1-55, being allocated to ‘B’ Battery, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery [presumably] at Camp Borden. This DND number was just after the last of the 1938 GS Trucks. The Ford - Scammell FAT was registered in Ontario with 962 C, and the Chevrolet - Scammell 963 C, though there are no discernible DND numbers in the published photographs.

So sorry if I was confused!

To add a bit of interest perhaps, on 25 July 1937 Sid Swallow at Ford in Windsor sent the complete registration form for the 1937 Ford 15-cwt pilot truck [see Dr Gregg], and mentioned that the truck was in the paint shop at that time. Delivery would be ‘as soon as possible’. The Ford truck was registered as a ‘FORD’, 1937 manufactured [registered with a 1937 Ontario dealer plate, 856-M] Serial Number C-4800, Engine Number C-4800, with a ‘box’ body, single rear wheels, 4300 lb. empty weight and 7,800 lb. Gross Load. So, what I would call "Trade Plates" were in fact "Dealer Plates". I must correct myself therefore!

[Rob Beale]

were they a single series of numbers covering all vehicles, with the prefix letter added to indicate the vehicle class, or did each class have its own series of numbers?

Basically could two vehicles have the same number but different letter prefixes? ( say a Lorry with H and a carrier with T)

Given that some had seven digit numbers I suspect it was a single series, but I've never seen it in print!

Rob

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The WD series was split up into allocated blocks, and that inclujded number batches for Canadian, Czech, Polish, Dutch, FF, Belgian and Norwegian forces, plus various theatres etc. There were also numbers allocated for rebuilds. So far as I know unless there were re-allocations of old numbers, they did not clash and the prefix, which could change e.g. "H" to "L", determined the classification. As we have said before some Canadian vehicles had "C" prefixes, and others relied on number batches allocated to Canadian forces.

Points to add that come to mind: Canadian vehicles sold to the British, and there were some, must have I believe changed their Census Numbers except if no Canadian CN had been allocated, e.g. a vehicle still carrying a C.M.D. number. Also, as we now know vehicles issued to the AIF. NZEF, IA, et al and then sold to the Governments continued to carry their WD Census Numbers until re-numbered.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Further to all of the above.

I have a picture dated Apr 59 showing several of our vehicles in a compound. There is a Chev Panel identified as 57-11711, beside it sits a WIRE-5 identified as 81-881. At the time we also had M37s and M152s in the 54-xxxxx configuration.

Also, to further muddy the waters, I have before me a pamphlet published by the QMG, AHQ, Ottawa, Mar 60. It is catalogued as NSN 7610-21-102-1826, and titled "Canadian Army Catalogue of Ordnance Stores Generic Listing of Vehicle and Tracked Equipments...Showing Census Code Numbers".

Note 2 in its preface reads...CENSUS CODE: The 6 digit code replaces the 4 digit code for all purposes.

Some examples:

Truck, Utility,1/4T, 4x4, w/e, old code 2230, new code 121110, i.e. a Jeep

Truck, Van, 15 cwt, 4x4, FFW, old code 2510, new code 172105, i.e. a C15-A WIRE-5

Truck, Cargo,3/4T, 4x4, w/e, old code 2502, new code 122101, i.e. an M37.

So what has therein been described as a census number is in actual fact our current Equipment Configuration Code (ECC) which catalogues equipments by type rather than in a true, accepted meaning of the word "census".

I can see now the thrust of Mike Dorosh's question and his confusion.

[rob love]

The mix of old style and new style CFRs during the 50s was common. I believe some of these vehicles retired in the 70s still with these numbers. By the 80s, any remaining vehicles (trailers mostly) were given the normal CFRs. I recall both a WW2 Ben Hur trailer and a Compressor trailer (which I now own) still in service in Manitoba during this time period.

Now just to muddy the waters even further, the census code was also painted on most of the vehicles during the 50s. Not on the doors mind you, but usually on the front of the vehicle or trailer. I have an origional painted M100 which still shows this number, and It was also on the cowl of my KL, along with many of the other vehicles I have restored from the 50s. I have seen the ECC used the same way, although not as frequently.

[Rob van Meel]

I think that there were two different series of British numbers around: "B" vehicle census numbers as discussed here, but also a "A" vehicle census number serie for AFV's with a T prefix.

(also with two diffrent AB's (army books) called active service log books: AB 412 for B vehicles, and AB413 for AFV)

Rob