Repro WS No 19 Cdn battery box

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jeff
\
Thanks for contributing to our visual collection. From the excerpt from the WFTW it would seem that only one would be proper as listed for 19 set....the larger 170 A.H. Although in a front line situation one would use what he had....


Merry Xmas and All the Best for the New Year

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Bob C

[Johnny Canuck]

Put a forward slash after the first ending bracket in the end thingy ma jigger, remove =red , haven't figured how to make it flash, yet.

[color=red]..........[/color]

Merry Christmas from us all

Geoff aka Geoffrey aka JC aka Johnny Canuck



Take a moment to think about those that are away, some never too return.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Joh...anTro.mp4.html

[Jordan Baker]

I think these are the drawings that were mentioned at the start of the thread.

Not sure who made them up or where they came from.

[Ron Pier]

I have sent these drawings to a couple of forum members and also posted on here. I got them some years ago from Mike Kelly in Oz. Ron

[Bob Carriere]

The boxes BSP 6v 100/125 AH mark IV and mark II and the BSP 6 v 170 AH are more suited for the 19 set. They also have the advantage of having lift handles that are still commercially available.

The hinges remain a problem since they will have to be hand made. Slotted screws for the handle and the small slotted screws for the metal strips can be sources from dealers like Spaneour (spelling ?)

Sourcing the wood in the proper thickness will be a hassle but not impossible.... most likely you will have to buy readily available stock of 3/4 or 7/8 in. thickness and waste the better part through a thickess planer...... the width of single boards will also be hard to find....... but with modern glues and some dowels or biscuit or hard wood plines we should be able to work around it ..... that may necessitate to work with a 1/2 in. wall thickness

Nice future project.

Cheers

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Jeff
\
Thanks for contributing to our visual collection. From the excerpt from the WFTW it would seem that only one would be proper as listed for 19 set....the larger 170 A.H.

I don't know where you got that idea from.

The standard power supply for the WS19 Truck & Ground station was the 6 Volt 85 Amp hour battery, issued in two pairs along with Switchboard, Charging, No.5 and a 300 watt charging set so that one pair could be recharged while the other was in use. This was standard for Jeeps and small vehicles (plus Land Rovers later on) and some trailer mounted installations.

Larger vehicle installations (LCV, ACV, etc.) used the 6V 170Ah batteries as size/weight was not such a problem. (Also, the various command vehicles would be making rather more use of the transmitter, with an associated increase in power drain.)

Anything with the WS19HP fitted required 170Ah batteries since the RF Amplifier No.2 drew 24 Amps (Mk.1 or Mk.2) or 18 Amps (Mk.3) on transmit and this would be far too much (especially when you add the 10 - 12 Amps drawn by the WS19 driving it) for an 85Ah battery - it's discharging at around the 3 hour rate which is a very bad idea.

Units near the front line (where noise was a problem and charging sets could not be used, plus the WS19HP Jeep install where there was no room for a second set of batteries and a charging set) would rely on central charging of batteries and daily delivery of replacements along with ammunition, POL and rations, etc. (That was what the 1260 Watt charging sets were used for.)

Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck

Batteries and Accumulators Part 2

I think this is a Canadian item, what it was for.................. I don't know, possibly a R103.

Pattern 5344


Unknown, possibly a homebrew.

Hmm... "Pattern xxxx" sounds more like Naval than army use, might possibly be air force, but that's a fairly small 12V battery pack intended to be hand carried by the look of the strap fixing for a leather shoulder strap. Possibly a signalling lamp?

I think the "homebrew" one is just that, and made from a surplus headset case (they were issued with switchboards to carry the operators headset and breast microphone.) This is probably to run a doorbell.

Best,
Chris

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck

Batteries and Accumulators Part 5

1.5 Volt Cells smaller than the previous 1.5's

Geoff

That's a lot of cells and batteries!

Does anyone have an example of a military cycle lamp battery (the "800" one shown)?

They were used in the standard "Lamp, Electric, No.1" with red filter and blackout shutter (which is NOT a signalling lamp, despite the optimists on eBay), as well as the Lantern. Electric, Traffic, No.2 and a lot of other lamps and torches, not to mention the "bomb disposal" hands-free intercom - a wooden box that took the battery and had a chest strap and fittings to turn a switchboard head/breast set into an intercom for the people with the REALLY nasty job of defusing dropped stuff.

It's annoying that this battery is no longer manufactured, though it should be possible to build one using the cells from the large (996) lantern battery that is still available.

I'll see if I can set up and photograph some of my batteries and cells for the forum.

Seasons Greetings!

Chris.

[Grant Bowker]

The photos already posted give a good idea of the construction of the sides and top of the boxes but are not clear on how the base is attached. Some photos seem to show the base as a simple slab the full size of the case, somehow attached to the sides (possibly multiple screws vertically up into the sides?). Other views seem to show the long sides as reaching to the bottom of the case with the base sitting between the long sides and overlapping the short sides (apparantly screwed horizontally through the long sides and vertically on the short sides). Also, is there any information on whether the base panels were simple square edged panels or was a rabbet (or other formed joint) used to support part of the load?

I'm also puzzled about the metal reinforcing on the box corners. Many boxes, but not all, are reinforced on the vertical corners but I don't recall seeing images of any boxes reinforced around the base. Has anyone noticed a pattern to relate the presence of reinforcing to battery case size, year of manufacture, manufacturer etc.?

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Chris Suslowicz

That's a lot of cells and batteries!

Does anyone have an example of a military cycle lamp battery (the "800" one shown)?

Chris.

I have one somewhere - just moved house though and have no idea which box it is in - suspect it will be many months before it reappears - but when it does, I'll pop some pics here.

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Some more battery box pics for the "collection"... this time... a Canadian box... alas I dont own the box.











Tim

[Tim Bell]

Last one... the handle, which appears to be an amalgamation of both type of handle which exist elsewhere on the other boxes I've seen...



Tim

[Johnny Canuck]

Hello Tim
Can you advise if the box you posted has a metal liner?

Geoff

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck

Hello Tim
Can you advise if the box you posted has a metal liner?

Geoff

Geoff

Sorry - unable to find out.

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Having heard nothing on the progress of these repro boxes am now investigating myself...

Am asking one local company today to quote me to produce the following which are being modelled from box type "P&G and E.S.P Co Ltd - 1945 - 6v 100/125AH MK IV" which is correct for the WS9 and WS19:

1) Strap Hinges
2) Bump straps
3) Branding stamps (Caution notice and manufacturer details)

NB - The Manufacturer details will be a ficticious company, the date of manufacture as 1944.

Handles of a similar design are still available commercially so I will not bother with these.

Am also discussing the box construction with a local carpenter to determine basic cost to have the timber cut to required dimensions - these will be hardwood of a timber similar to the originals

Then I should have an idea of cost price and be able to determine if the manufacture of reproductions is likely to be viable.

Drop me a PM if subject to price you'd be interested in any repros.

Thanks

Tim

[Tim Bell]

All the quotes I had back to accurately repro these boxes have made it a better bet for me to simply get originals... I only need 4...

Here are two I picked up recently... both are empty, bar the pair of labels inside the lids.





Now I need to start thinking about the Battery Carrier No 18... anyone got one of these they can measure please... Drawings in the manual are fairly basic and I guess I can work it out based on the dimensions of the batteries... but would be better to have dimensions from an original if someone has one, just in case there is some detail not shown in the drawing.

Pics of the battery carrier from the WSC WS19 manual.





Pic of a similar carrier - though I think for a single battery, so not the carrier no 18 - from a post Geoff put up a while ago...





Tim

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

I think these are the drawings that were mentioned at the start of the thread.

Not sure who made them up or where they came from.

Me. I scribbled those drawings on some scrap paper. The batteries were found in the Sydney road Coburg yard.

There were Aust. pattern wireless battery boxes which look . A ham I was on air with one night, he was a signaler in Syria . He said they rebuilt the wireless batteries every three months , they used a kero blow lamp to melt the tar sealer out, install new plates , fill with fresh acid .

[Ron Pier]

Ha Ha Mike! Only 3 years late with your reply Ron

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Me. I scribbled those drawings on some scrap paper. The batteries were found in the Sydney road Coburg yard.

There were Aust. pattern wireless battery boxes which look . A ham I was on air with one night, he was a signaler in Syria . He said they rebuilt the wireless batteries every three months , they used a kero blow lamp to melt the tar sealer out, install new plates , fill with fresh acid .

It wasn't quite that simple, the batteries were returned to REME for repair when they reached a certain level of capacity (or suddenly failed). The "Battery Shop" would then test them rather thoroughly and replace any faulty parts, either plates and separators if distorted/sulphated up, or complete cells and containers if badly damaged/cracked. It was not a nice place to work, everyone got a milk ration of 1 pint per day to reduce the risk of lead poisoning.

There are various EMERs on batteries (and the WW2 vintage battery shop manual, I think, with a photo of the "scrap dump" and a plea to treat batteries properly to prolong their life) in the WS19 group archive. (The originals are in one of my gazillion boxes, somewhere....)

Cells could be 'pulled' by centre-drilling the ends of the lead connector bars on top of the battery, then using a counterbore tool to separate the bar and
leave most of the connector post intact. The pitch (Chattertons Compound) was then softened with a steam hose, and the cell extracted from its case.
(Obviously the entire battery had been drained of acid and thoroughly washed out before you started this!) The plate assembly could then be refurbished/rebuilt with new plates and separators as required, then reinserted and sealed with more compound. Finally the connector bars would be dropped back into place and fresh lead poured in to make the connection - using a ladle much like those seen for hand-casting bullets. The battery would then be refilled, allowed to stand for a while for the plates to absorb the acid, then charged and tested before being reissued.

(I read the manual while scanning it for the archive, and a lot of it appears to have stuck!)

Chris.

[Eric B]

The CDN battery box posted by Tim is wood inside. Painted black.

I had the original box and took photos of it before finding a good home for it.

Thanks

Eric

[guy labbe]

collected some BEF battery boxes on the Belgian coast, surely left behind in 1940.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by guy labbe

collected some BEF battery boxes on the Belgian coast, surely left behind in 1940.

Not unless they had a time machine back then: the one at bottom left has a 1944 date on it!

They're almost certainly ones which have been sold off as surplus/scrap post-WW2, because the wooden cases were re-used continuously. Faulty or worn out batteries would be returned to workshops for testing and dead cells would be replaced or the entire battery rebuilt as necessary before being refilled, charged, tested and finally reissued. The boxes represent a considerable amount of time and money and would not be discarded unless damaged beyond repair. They would finally be disposed of in bulk when the army changed over to the steel-cased equivalents in the 1950s.

(If they'd been left behind in 1940 they would not exist now, because once they were useless as batteries the spare plates, separators, and repair facilities would not exist in the occupied territories.)

Having said that, it's a wonderful set of battery boxes, do you have a radio truck to put them in?

Chris.

[guy labbe]

You don't know what still turns up over here Chris , on the way to Dunkirk the BEF left tons of kit behind. for sure there is one box from 1944 but al the outers where found on local flea markets .
Indeed, I am working on a Morris Commercial C4 W/T!

Guy.

Originally Posted by Chris Suslowicz

Not unless they had a time machine back then: the one at bottom left has a 1944 date on it!

They're almost certainly ones which have been sold off as surplus/scrap post-WW2, because the wooden cases were re-used continuously. Faulty or worn out batteries would be returned to workshops for testing and dead cells would be replaced or the entire battery rebuilt as necessary before being refilled, charged, tested and finally reissued. The boxes represent a considerable amount of time and money and would not be discarded unless damaged beyond repair. They would finally be disposed of in bulk when the army changed over to the steel-cased equivalents in the 1950s.

(If they'd been left behind in 1940 they would not exist now, because once they were useless as batteries the spare plates, separators, and repair facilities would not exist in the occupied territories.)

Having said that, it's a wonderful set of battery boxes, do you have a radio truck to put them in?

Chris.

[kevin powles]

Gents,

Anyone know the correct size of battery box which go's in the armoured box on the back of a Mk1 universal carrier ?, I have several battery boxes but they are not tall enough to be clamped down with the installed clamp arrangement. I would be willing to swap what I have for the correct box.

thanks kevin.

[Chris Suslowicz]

What is the battery used for?

If it's a radio set it's likely to be 12V 22 or 75 AH, or a pair of 6V batteries (85 or 100/125 AH). (Depending on if it's WS19 or WS22.)

[Thinks]

On the other hand: if it's for a WS18 then it's the "Static Battery Box" made of bakelite and stuffed full of primary batteries to give 162V (tapped at 12V) and 3V. This is actually more likely as the WS18 was used in the Support Platoon carriers for an Infantry Battalion (not in an Armoured Regiment), with WS19s added for the Armoured Regiment version (as well as lorries for the rifle companies). WS18 battery box is approximately 11.5/8-in high x 13.1/2-in long x 4-in thick. (The latter is guesswork because it's missing the lid and all the fittings, someone converted dozens of them into storage drawers, which is a great pity.)

If it's the vehicle battery all bets are off - check the vehicle manual.

Chris.

[kevin powles]

Chris, it's made for the 11 set wireless. Would that run on 6 or 12 volts ? The metal box on the back of the attached carrier diagram holds the 11 set wireless battery, labelled N014.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by kevin powles

Chris, it's made for the 11 set wireless. Would that run on 6 or 12 volts ? The metal box on the back of the attached carrier diagram holds the 11 set wireless battery, labelled N014.

Hmmm... WS11 can run from either 6 or 12 volts, depending on the supply unit fitted. It can also run (as the Low Power set) from a 6 volt battery for LT and a 240 v primary battery box - WftW Volume 1 reckons that was only used for the ground station, though.

It also reckons that the usual vehicle station used a pair of 6-volt 85 amp hour Mk.II batteries, so would be 12 volts input and possibly the HP version with both supply units.

Either way, Battery Secondary Portable 6V 85AH Mk.II seems to be what you want.

Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Further thoughts.... The box almost certainly holds a pair of 6V 85AH batteries, side by side, as they would also suit the later WS19 installation. See the third photograph in this post: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...16&postcount=1

Chris.

[kevin powles]

Hi, I picked up this 1944 6 volt ZB 11676 battery box 72 ampere hour. It's complete with all fittings and cells inside. I got it for my 11 set to go in the back of the Bren carrier. I will fit in the summer. If anyone needs dimensions or pics, let me know.

[Bob Carriere]

That is a museum piece........ everything should be documented from all angles with dimension of ID/OD and the same for the seemingly original accumulator.

Lucky find.

Cheers