MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #721  
Old 09-04-18, 02:38
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colbert, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,420
Default Vickers MMG spent cases

Hi Colin,

Yes, makes much more sense now. The belt feeds from the ammo box in the centre tray attached to the mount which, as you have said, moved with the gun's elevation, thereby retaining the correct belt feed-belt port angle as the cloth belt feeds through the gun, and into the catch tray/box on the left side which fits into the bump-out in the turret wall.

Vickers MMG spent cases were ejected downwards from the centre line of the weapon, and would normally be collected in a canvas catch bag attached to the underside of the gun or down a short chute into a box. They would not be allowed to free-fall into the lower reaches of the turret for obvious reasons.

As I understand it, the Vickers .50 HMG was essentialy an MMG on steroids - ie fed the same way, so both weapons in the MkVIA fed from the right, ejected spent cases from the underside, and fed the empty cloth belt out the left side. NOPE - see edit.....

EDIT: I've just had a look at some images of Royal Naval use of the .50 inch Vickers (common in the early stages of WW2 as a close-in AA weapon on ships), and it shows drum magazines feeding from either left or right, so maybe the .50 in the tank fed from the left side (from the ammo box in the tray fixed to the mount) and the empty belt fed out the right side into the box mounted in the holder mounted on the turret wall, as visible in the AWM RYPA image. That would make the most sense given the configuration of the ammo box holders in the various images.


Mike

Last edited by Mike Cecil; 09-04-18 at 02:51.
Reply With Quote
  #722  
Old 09-04-18, 11:55
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 4,482
Default

From a quick squiz at a Vickers book, the .5" inch cal. is descibed as a MkV gun, which is an AFV gun. It can be used and fed as a right or left fed gun.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #723  
Old 09-04-18, 12:45
George Moore's Avatar
George Moore George Moore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plymouth UK
Posts: 123
Default The Thot Plickens

Colin,
The turret bulge issue looks to be solved, but I think there has been some confusion as to the extractor fan.

Looking again at the drawings, I note that on the page that gives multi view drawings of the turret, I now see the bulge detail is totally different (cannot quote a number).

That drawing is for the Mk VI C, as is probably that one showing the fan.

The Mk VI C had the 15mm and 9.2mm BESA's fitted.

I have one photo of a captured Mk VI C from a Japanese magazine which shows this cover, and is most definitely for extracting fumes. So I think we have mix of drawings.

George.
Click image for larger version

Name:	PIC 217.JPG
Views:	7
Size:	256.7 KB
ID:	99180
Reply With Quote
  #724  
Old 09-04-18, 16:46
George Moore's Avatar
George Moore George Moore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plymouth UK
Posts: 123
Default MkVI C Turret

Click image for larger version

Name:	TanklightMarkVIc6.jpg
Views:	8
Size:	155.8 KB
ID:	99184

This is the drawing I referred to earlier.

George
Reply With Quote
  #725  
Old 09-04-18, 16:52
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colbert, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,420
Default

Thanks, Lynn, for the confirmation.

I think that pretty much confirms that both MGs fed from ammo boxes in the tray fixed to the mount, the .303 from the right, the .50 from the left, with the empty belts going into the 'collector'trays/boxes mounted on the left and right turret walls respectively. Empty cases ejected into some sort of bag or box under each gun: anyone got any references to that aspect?

George - in the Japenese image, the tank seems to have a Wermacht number plate, so an image of a captured vehicle perhaps? Pity I cannot read Japanese. As for the fan, the Besa was renowned for being a 'fumy' weapon - plenty of references to the 7.92 Besa in the Mk3 Centurion producing overpowering fumes - maybe that's why the Besa-armed Vickers needed an extractor fan?

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #726  
Old 09-04-18, 18:38
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 142
Default

The 7.92 Besa was almost universally used as the co-ax weapon in WW2 British tanks so must have been acceptable then.

I note that in the Japanese photo the bowden cable that fires the 4" smoke discharger can clearly be seen coming out of the protecting cover behind it. So that removes any doubt about that.

David
Reply With Quote
  #727  
Old 09-04-18, 18:45
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colbert, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,420
Default

David, I agree with you that the 7.92mm Besa was almost universally used on Brit WW2 tanks as a co-ax, hence its use in the Centurion Mk3 as well (replaced by the Browning .30cal to become a Centurion Mk5).

It was nevertheless well known as a very 'fumy' weapon.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #728  
Old 09-04-18, 22:22
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

That most certainly does clarify a lot of questions and George you have to be spot on with what Mk that drawing is. I have looked at that drawing along with lots of others and not been able to work out what it is. Some of the other drawings I have are for the Mkv1b because of the air intake cover but fortunately there appears to be very little difference between the rest of the A,B and C variants.
Richard, I am quite fortunate to have a couple of drawings of the retractable signalling light and have already found two glass covers that appear to be identical which I will post when I get to that stage. Thank you everyone for sharing your information and knowledge.
Colin.
Reply With Quote
  #729  
Old 10-04-18, 13:02
George Moore's Avatar
George Moore George Moore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plymouth UK
Posts: 123
Default Re photo

The photo is from a Japanese mag, and shows a captured Mk VIC, but I have other photographs of BEF and others, ALL showing the fan cover.
The one I posted was the best of the bunch and not intended to mislead.

George.
Reply With Quote
  #730  
Old 10-04-18, 16:32
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colbert, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,420
Default

George,

I wasn't suggesting such - not at all. I was simply interested to see it was a captured example, that's all.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #731  
Old 12-04-18, 16:22
George Moore's Avatar
George Moore George Moore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plymouth UK
Posts: 123
Default sorry

Mike,
Sorry if I seem to have over-reacted, just that I mistook the comment that being "under new management" it was a conversion made by them rather than a standard fitting.
It would seem then that the MkIV B did not have an extractor fan, as the drawings with the fan plus the one I posted are VI C turret.

George.
Reply With Quote
  #732  
Old 13-04-18, 04:48
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

Now that we have everything clarified I am now into the turret fabrication. The bottom section had to be cut for a flat plate so I made a tracing jig to get the correct angle and it took about an hour to cut the section out and clean up. I will cut the other one before I progress any more.
Attached Thumbnails
20180413_092301.jpg   20180413_120546.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #733  
Old 16-04-18, 11:19
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

A bit more progress on the turrets.
Attached Thumbnails
20180414_120038.jpg   20180414_120100.jpg   20180415_132002.jpg   20180415_132008.jpg   20180415_134651.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #734  
Old 16-04-18, 11:24
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

They are now both sitting on the bearing and roll so easy and level. I have cut the main pieces and will continue with angle iron to join it all together with rivets. Without measuring my M3 Stuart turret I would have to say it could be a little bit bigger.
Attached Thumbnails
20180416_180654.jpg   20180416_180706.jpg   20180416_180710.jpg   20180416_180736.jpg   20180416_181121.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #735  
Old 19-04-18, 12:21
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

Getting much progress.
Attached Thumbnails
20180417_125804.jpg   20180419_070858.jpg   20180419_070916.jpg   20180419_071000.jpg   20180419_071019.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #736  
Old 19-04-18, 12:23
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

And more progress.
Attached Thumbnails
20180419_095056.jpg   20180419_105352.jpg   20180419_133214.jpg   20180419_133232.jpg   20180419_164700.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #737  
Old 19-04-18, 12:27
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,498
Default

I would just like to thank Russ Gregg from Canada who has taken the time to go to the Borden Museum and take a lot of photos and measurements for me. It is help like this that makes this forum invaluable in the restoration of these machines. Thankyou Russ
Attached Thumbnails
20180419_164713.jpg   20180419_181902.jpg   20180419_182056.jpg   20180419_182114.jpg  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FAT cab 13 No 9 resto Jane Doe The Softskin Forum 26 11-02-16 21:26
C15A resto harrygrey382 The Restoration Forum 9 08-06-15 09:40
another CAN m37 resto Steve Wilson The Restoration Forum 11 25-08-12 15:57
m 37 resto in new brunswick pauljboudreau Post-war Military Vehicles 118 07-03-11 22:29
Door Resto Barry Churcher The Restoration Forum 11 23-05-08 16:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016