"Falaise" Otter number 2

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Does anyone know the outcome of two recent MV auctions this last April and May?

There was the April 27 Dundee Motor Pool Collection in Michigan (I think this is the one with the F60S Bofors truck and a Windsor carrier) and the May 31 Aiolis & Partners Auction in Caen, France that included two Otter hulls.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

....the May 31 Aiolis & Partners Auction in Caen, France that included two Otter hulls.

Bruce,

The two Otters were auctioned by AIOLFI & Partners. Maybe the results will be published on their website http://www.aiolfipartners.com?

Hanno

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Maybe the results will be published on their website http://www.aiolfipartners.com?

I looked there first and didn't see anything.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I looked there first and didn't see anything.

It typically takes a few working days to process the results.

[James Gosling]

Hi Bruce,

I bought the one without the turret. I prefered it as it was on its original chassis, with gear box and transferbox. The other one was on a C15a or gun tractor chassis and had been cut in front to fit.
About 10 years ago Michel Leloup, owner of the Falaise museum showed me the two Otters and I was told that the one I have now had original wartime damage to the roof and drivers footwell. The big question will be how to restore it and preserve the damage.

Here's my one.

James

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

Hi Bruce,

I bought the one without the turret. I prefered it as it was on its original chassis, with gear box and transferbox. The other one was on a C15a or gun tractor chassis and had been cut in front to fit.
About 10 years ago Michel Leloup, owner of the Falaise museum showed me the two Otters and I was told that the one I have now had original wartime damage to the roof and drivers footwell. The big question will be how to restore it and preserve the damage.
James

I see the pack is growing, glad to hear it!! Do you know where the other one went? and (don't answer if you want) but did they go anywhere near the catalog price?

[James Gosling]

Trying to find out about the other one. Will keep you informed if I do.

[Stefan Leegwater]

Hi James,

Congrats with your new treasure!!!

See you at the new Beltring?

Cheers,

Stefan

[James Gosling]

Thanks Stefan,

Yes I'll be there, see you for a beer!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

I bought the one without the turret. I prefered it as it was on its original chassis, with gear box and transferbox. The other one was on a C15a or gun tractor chassis and had been cut in front to fit.
About 10 years ago Michel Leloup, owner of the Falaise museum showed me the two Otters and I was told that the one I have now had original wartime damage to the roof and drivers footwell. The big question will be how to restore it and preserve the damage.

Well done on saving it, James

Are you going to restore it as a turretless Otter?

As for the wartime damage, I'd suggest to carry out the repairs as they would have done during WW2. I'm sure there is (REME?) manual out there describing how to repair damaged armour.

Hanno

[James Gosling]

Hi Hanno,

Yes, Turretless again! This time maybe an artillery FOO vehicle. I just can't decide about the damage. In some ways it seems wrong to repair the damage. I will just have to get her home and sit and ponder the question with a large glass of malt. James

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I'm sure there is (REME?) manual out there describing how to repair damaged armour.

Got said manual here! James, I can copy it for you if your interested

[James Gosling]

Richard, many thanks, that would be great.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

Richard, many thanks, that would be great.

OK James, I will get it done and bring to W&P.

regards, Richard

[Alex van de Wetering]

Results of the Caen auction are online:

http://www.aiolfipartners.com/catalogues/

It seems most of the auction items from the Falaise museum sold. The Canadian Dodge and CMP from the other collection didn´t. Selling Prices seem pretty realistic for most items, at least in my opinion.

Alex

[James Gosling]

After 5 months, all the peperwork was complete and we collected the second Otter from Normandy last week!

[Andrew]

ok you teased us with a nice pic but how about more info on it

[James Gosling]

It originally came from the collection of Michel Leloup who owned the Falaise museum in Normandy. For many years it was at his woodyard near Aigle with another Otter, his Panther and the remains of several other vehicles.
When this closed down it was moved up to the museum and was stored behind the museum. On his death it went into the auction in May.

Mr Leloup rescued many vehicles from around Normandy and he told me this was one of them. It has bomb damage to the roof, a shrapnel hole in the drivers footwell which you can see from the photo and also the fuel tank has exploded.

Big question now is what to do with the damage?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Andrew

ok you teased us with a nice pic but how about more info on it

Andrew, see

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...790#post180790

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...661#post178661

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...0023#post70023

HTH,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

Mr Leloup rescued many vehicles from around Normandy and he told me this was one of them. It has bomb damage to the roof, a shrapnel hole in the drivers footwell which you can see from the photo and also the fuel tank has exploded.

Big question now is what to do with the damage?

James,

Good to see you have it in the UK now! Re. the damage, I like your idea to restore it and preserve the damage (as discussed during "Beltring-on-Sea"). If that proves impractical - or impossible to drive - I would carry out the repairs as they would have done during WW2 as per the REME manual provided by Richard. They would still be very visible and serve as a poignant reminder of the damages of war.

Hanno

[James Gosling]

Hi Hanno,

At the moment it looks like it will be driveable as is, If a little breezy! However I do like your suggestion.

I will post some pictures of the damage tomorrow so you can get a better idea.

James

[tankbarrell]

It's always a tricky one. I don't agree with those who leave range damage and say ''it's part of the vehicles history'' when they have restored it to an in service condition, i.e. before it's time as a target.
Similarly, removing real battle damage seems a shame but sometimes it can be too bad to leave unrepaired.

I like Hanno's suggestion, not something I'd considered before!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Leaving range damage is like not repairing after a car accident or years of neglect. It was not "earned" legitimately. Battle damage is another category altogether. For example, some fellows I know are working on a Saracen armoured car. It suffered from split welds, water ingress and rust damage. But, after priming they found a bullet-like gouge in the plate beside the driver's hatch. This vehicle was used in Northern Ireland, so it is not unimaginable that some unhappy Irishman fired a shot at it.

In the case of the Otter, I like the suggestion replicating the Battle Damage Repair techniques. The inventive use of existing or salvaged parts to make urgent repairs should be the story, not the question of how it was damaged.

[Ganmain Tony]

Strewth James, you're a glutton for punishment!

Well done, its certainly in the right hands what ever you decide to do

Must be starting to get a bit chilly over your way now too

[James Gosling]

Hi Tony,

The day I picked it up, we woke up to snow on the ground and a 5 hour blizzard. Most unusual for Normandy! I think I beat my best loading time that day, 30 minutes from ramps down to loaded and strapped ready for home. A bit warmer with you I think?
James

[Robin Craig]

Congratulations on your trophy and thank you for being the temporary custodian of such a great piece of history for future generations.

R

[eddy8men]

nice project, good luck with it.
the battle damage raises a good question as to how to go about restoring it. I left some of the damage on my cromwell turret from it's time as an artillery target as I thought it added a bit more interest to the vehicle and it just didn't seem right to grind it off and bog it up. there's a strike on the turret roof where it meets the vertical side armour and a piece of the round has been sheared off and is lodged in the gap. not particularly historical but interesting non the less.

[James Gosling]

Here are some pictures of the damage to the footwell, roof and the blown out fuel tank.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

Here are some pictures of the damage to the footwell, roof and the blown out fuel tank.

James, your question re. the Otter bracket reminded me of this thread.

Looking at the damage on your Otter, there are a couple of basic options for its restoration:

1. Leave in as-is Normandy battlefield relic state
2. Repair to minimal running condition with all damage and rust retained (much like the Pirbright M3 Grant Tank)
3. Restore to in-service battle-damage repaired condition
4. Restore to factory-new condition

As stated before, my preference would be to go for option 3.

Seeing the damage, I wonder if this Otter could have sustained this type of damage without being written off immediately? In reality it was of course written off, which is why it could be recovered in this state by Mr Leloup after the war.

But: what if there is a reasoning that could be made that this Otter sustained severe damage, but could have been repaired to running order within, say 48 hrs? If the chassis and running gear was not damaged, it could have been repaired and quickly returned to service if there was a need but no replacements available, right?

The scenario could have been that after removing casualties (*) REME LAD crews could have worked round the clock, patching the armour, rigging up a new fuel tank and get it back in action as a turretless recce car. As Terry worded it aptly, restoring it as such you would tell the story of the inventive use of existing or salvaged parts to make urgent repairs in wartime conditions. This would highlight the performance of front-line soldier-mechanics, and put a tangible exhibit in the field to demonstrate the astounding amounts of repair/conversion work carried out in very short periods during WW2 (like the conversion of M7 Priests into Kangaroos).

I wish you all the wisdom with the choice of the options you have with this Otter, and look forward to seeing the end result. I know my boys and Tony will line up again for a ride

Hanno

(*) To get a graphic picture of what was entailed to get battle-damaged tanks back in action, I would recommend reading the book "Death Traps" by US 3rd Armored WW2 veteran Belton Cooper.

[James Gosling]

Hi Hanno,

Thank you for the suggestions. I do like your idea of the field patch up! It is certainly something to mull over.

Yesterday I cleared out about 4 inches of tree mulch from the inside and found more damage. These holes are right below the blown in section of roof. I'm going to have a look underneath tomorrow and see if the shrapnal hit anything else. Hopefully it missed the transfer case! Notice the slice out of the foot ring for the turret basket, its right above one of the holes.
James