Project PHOENIX

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Rob
This is looking better and better. If you can contact them tell them not to scrap anything else until we look. Blitz with a funny bracket mid chassis. Hmm! I think we'll be talking on the telephone tonight.
Bob

[Keith Webb]

The drums are standard CMP, the offset diff is also, but the flange isn't. It actually looks like the one on the transfer case.

Diffs on CMPs were offset to line up with the transfer case which was on an angle.

You should have no problems getting these items. The wheel cylinders will probably be 1 1/2", easily repaired by sending to a brake place for stainless steel sleeves.

As shown earlier by Tony the tracked Truck used a Chevrolet CMP rear axle.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Keefy
Which brand, Chevrolet or Ford? Do you think that the items Rob has displayed could have come from the tracked truck?
Bob

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi Keefy
Which brand, Chevrolet or Ford? Do you think that the items Rob has displayed could have come from the tracked truck?
Bob

Bob the half track was a Chevrolet so the axles are more likely to have been Chevrolet too although with carrier bogies fitted they may have used a Ford rear axle as well.

Cheers
Cliff

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi Keefy
Which brand, Chevrolet or Ford? Do you think that the items Rob has displayed could have come from the tracked truck?
Bob

All the pics of the tracked Truck have a Chevrolet rear axle.

It's possible the Ford rear end came from the one and only Ford half-track.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Keefy
1/ Do you know if a rear end photograph of the Chevrolet half- track truck exists?
2/ Is the Ford half-track the Marmon-Herrington photograph on this thread?
3/ Can we tell from the ARN the model of the truck? You have suggested C60L which is logical to me but I would like diffinitive proof so that I can build this correctly.

Lots of this, researching, nagging people for answers.

Bob

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi Keefy
1/ Do you know if a rear end photograph of the Chevrolet half- track truck exists?
2/ Is the Ford half-track the Marmon-Herrington photograph on this thread?
3/ Can we tell from the ARN the model of the truck? You have suggested C60L which is logical to me but I would like diffinitive proof so that I can build this correctly.

Lots of this, researching, nagging people for answers.

Bob

Ok...

1/ I have not yet seen a photograph of the rear of the Chev halftrack

2/ Yes, the Ford is the one in this thread - it was the only Ford so converted as far as I know

3/ You'd only find the answer by looking in the book, I'm afraid - possibly it received it's ARN before modification, but I think the book would possibly only list it as a 3-ton.

[cliff]

Just had a look at some photos I have of the MCP Ford half track and the hubs are only 5 stud not 8 as per the drums shown, so therefore the axle and drums could not have come off the one and only (to our knowledge) Ford prototype half track.

Do we know for sure that only one Chevrolet CMP half track was made?

Do we know for sure that a Ford CMP was not converted as well?

Was the axle pictured used under the International prototype half track? (AWM Photo shown below)

There was another MCP Chevrolet (1940 WB model I think) that was converted to a half track and the AWM photo shows a Chevrolet type drive Axle as well.

So could the axle and hub shown have been made up by someone post war to fix something that broke on a piece of modified equipment in some farming or industry situation?

Cheers
Cliff

[Pedr]

G'day Gentlemen,

Just a few observations on my behalf.

1. Firstly, please take notice of the quote that I have posted taken directly from Mike Cecil's article.

"...but checkout MVCSSA's "Olive Drab" magazine February 2002 ( Volume 1 Number 7 )

On page 8 is an article on these exact vehicles written by Mike Cecil. He mentions that it is a C60S, and a 218T Ford and that they also converted a K6 International.

"At least three two wheel drive "lorries" were converted to half-track configuration. These were a 1940 Chevrolet, an International K6, and a 1942 Ford Model 218T. Both the Ford and International were converted to half-track using locally manufactured Machine Gun Carrier bogies and steel tracks,
while the Chevrolet used a combination of Machine Gun Carrier steel tracks and a suspension unit similar to the Marmon Herrington 2-man "Hercules" light tank.""

2. The 1942 Jailbar Ford 218T is/was only 2 wheel drive and doesn't have a Marmon-Herrington all wheel drive kit as the front axle only has a standard hub ( small centre ) as opposed to the Marmon Herrington front axle hub which is somewhat more like the hub seen on the Chev Blitz.

3. It is ( in my opinion ) unlikely that the axle that Rob Dyba has is from the Ford as close inspection of the pictures of this truck will show that the drive sprocket for this conversion is at the front of the chassis and the sprocket itself is of a much smaller diameter - they look somewhat like a Strickland sprocket, although that is not possible due to the timeline of this project and the date of the conversions undertaken by Jack Strickland.

In summary, personally I cannot workout what that axle was originally from, unless Tony Smith is correct and it is from another Tracked, Truck, 1 ton, GS.

Thanks to Cliff for finding and posting a picture of the third prototype that Mike Cecil mentions. I hadn't seen a picture of it before. I am interested in the Chev MCP that you mentioned. This isn't mentioned by Mike, but it would stand to reason that it would have a Chevrolet rear axle.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all
The problem now is that Keefy says it is a C60L whilst Mike Cecil says it's a C60S. There is a 24" difference in the wheel bases The C60S may be possible as I counted the number of track links on a high resolution image and came up with 157, that being 19 links short of a full Carrier track. 19 links equate to 35".

The second problem is, again according to Mike Cecil,

"while the Chevrolet used a combination of Machine Gun Carrier steel tracks and a suspension unit similar to the Marmon Herrington 2-man "Hercules" light tank."

Again through enhancing a high resolution image one can see the mounting methods/brackets utilised to hold the Carrier running gear. This does not look like any type of suspension unit but just bracket substitutes for the Carrier track assembly mounting points.

Over to you all - Bob

[Keith Webb]

That there's no-one who really knows which means you can make it up as you go along

Just kidding!

I'll be seeing the esteemed Mr. C this weekend so I'll have a deep and meaningful on your behalf.

[Rob Dyba]

I've changed my mind, I think my diff came from a 1932 Zundapp motor scooter tramcar conversion.....

Seriously, I don't believe it's a tracked truck diff, the plate looks well made & machined, not a farmer throw together. I can duplicate farm quality engineering, this has been turned up on a rather sizeable lathe by a competent operator....
If it is off a light tank it's perfect for me, but having had a close look at as many piccs of Vickers, Carden-Lloyd and accociated light tanks for a reproduction project I am planning nothing matches up with this sprocket. Except that picture loaded previously of the tracked conversion.........and it is a perfect match.

Rob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Keefy
Thanks for that. But as we all know it's not the length that counts but the quality, of the restoration that is.
Bob

BTW I just spoke to Tony Smith and he gave me the volume number at the AWM that contains this particular ARN. Apparently the information would include the type and chassis length. I'll be emailing Mike with that info. and hopefully someone will look it up for me.

[Keith Webb]

I think Jif went over there with Fiona today.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Rob
Does this mean that the flat plates are of no use to you and therefore surplus to you requirements?
Bob

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi all
The second problem is, again according to Mike Cecil,

"while the Chevrolet used a combination of Machine Gun Carrier steel tracks and a suspension unit similar to the Marmon Herrington 2-man "Hercules" light tank."

Over to you all - Bob

Bob I think Mike is refering to the MCP Chevrolet below rather then the CMP C60? (?at this stage)

As you can see the suspension and bogies is totally different to the others proving I think that Mike was talking about this truck and not the CMP

Cheers
Cliff

Pic from the AWM.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hello Cliff
I agree. There is nothing "suspension unit" on Phoenix whilst the AWM image of the MCP fits Mike's description.
Bob

[Keith Webb]

That pic was taken at Wesley in Melbourne, in case anyone was wondering. That part of St.Kilda Rd would have been a haven for MV spotters!

[Tony Smith]

(Writes with quaking hands)

ROB, I THINK YOU'VE FOUND THE CHEV HALF-TRACK!!!!

The wheel discs are NOT the same as those on the 1 ton Tracked Truck, and that was fitted with a C15 rear diff. The wheel discs appear exactly the same as those in the half-track CMP pics.

As Bob and I discussed at Corowa, the rear axle with the Carrier drive sprocket MUST have a different gear ratio to the Chev CMP front axle with 10.50-20 tyre if this vehicle is to be driven with the front axle engaged. The circumference of a 10.50-20 tyre is approx 128inches. The Carrier track has a link pitch of 1 3/4in, and the drive sprocket has 35 teeth, giving a sprocket circumference of 61 1/4in. We know the front diff of a C60L/S is 7.16:1, so for this vehicle to have the same track ground speed as the front tyres, the rear diff ratio needs to be approx 3.40:1 ratio. Ford didn't make this ratio in the truck sized gears, but DID make this ratio in the 3/4 ton commercial. That drive flange is the same as the type used on the taper type pinion (compared to splined), which co-incidentally is the type on the 3/4 ton commercial!

Rob, can you do us all a favour? Hit the rear part of the diff with a wire brush above and below the fill plug. Look for stamped numbers like 10 34 or such.
If you find nothing there, slide the axle shafts back in.
Mark one point on the hub flange with chalk or paint.
Hold the opposite hub flange firmly in place.
Turn the drive pinion a number of times until the chalk mark makes ONE FULL TURN.
Divide that number by two and tell us the answer ( This will give you the diff gear ratio). ie: I'm hoping it will take 6.8 turns of the drive pinion to turn the hub flange one full turn.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

I must admit that I am totally lost regarding information about diff ratios and the like. But thank God, and MLU, that I have access to so many experts, and in this case Tony & Rob. Not forgetting of course Cliff, Pedr, Keefy and anyone else to date that has posted input and making this project so interesting.

Thanks All and keep it coming.

Bob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

It is time to involve the General.

On the rubber on the nearside track adjustor wheel is the following script - "General Motors Holdens". I have re-oriented the wheel so the scripting is on top.

I think I will prepare a briefing paper and present it to GMH inviting them to become a corporate sponsor in one of their own products.

Optimistic Bob

[Rob Dyba]

610 stamped into the housing near the filler plug. Will need to drag the diff out of the corner to do an axle count to work out the ratio.

On a sideline my good mate & tanker Graham Thomas is on-line with us for the first time tonight- Hello Graham!!!!!! Graham is not very computer friendly, but does have a wealth of knowledge in all things armoured & soft-skinned. Have walked him through step by step on how to look up MLU (by phone) & where to "click". Graham will be making the call tomorrow to acertain the source of the diff as it it his mate who is the 'farmer".

Bob, if you should end up with a skippy 1/2 track from all this you can have the plates providing you can replace them with something that will "turn track".

In the next hour or 2 I will be loading up a couple of teasers to my new "project". Following the "jigsaw' & "peek-a-boo" theme I do feel some pressure to name her- (or him...).



Rob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Rob
Not a problem. Until you tell me specifically what you are after, how about a glossy A3 photograph of me. That will make people turn in their track.
Bob

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Hi Rob
Not a problem. Until you tell me specifically what you are after, how about a glossy A3 photograph of me. That will make people turn in their track.
Bob

only if it is autographed as well!!!!

Cheers
Cliff

[Rob Dyba]

Next years MLU calendar, Mr January is ------ Salesman Bob!!!!! i have loaded my new project on the carrier forum FYI. Note the sprockets I am after Mr January....

Rob

Originally posted by robobmc
Next years MLU calendar, Mr January is ------ Salesman Bob!!!!! i have loaded my new project on the carrier forum FYI. Note the sprockets I am after Mr January....

Rob

Hey, do you have your Ms. APRIL as yet? My birthday is coming up

Ms. Ma Yappy

[cliff]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
Hey, do you have your Ms. APRIL as yet? My birthday is coming up

Ms. Ma Yappy

:idea: Ma Yappy in her Birthday suit for April

cheers
Cliff

I know yet again :dh:

[Pedr]

Ok so I was reading the infamous article from Mike Cecil again yesterday.....and I was wrong.

I had miss read the article where it stated that there had been three trucks converted. On closer inspection there were four trucks converted.

A 1942 Ford 218T
A 1940 Chev MCP
An International K6

AND a "Truck, three ton, GS, 4X4 - C60S Blitz "CMP" ( Bob's Unicorn )

So then I went back and looked at the pictures again....I now believe that the sprockets that Rob Dyba has might well be the correct ones as they seem to match the pictures.

"Sorry Beagley-Beagley"

But I can't explain why a Chev Blitz would be fitted with a Ford rear dif.????? ( Make it a Ford Halftrack Bob! )

Pedr

Originally posted by cliff
:idea: Ma Yappy in her Birthday suit for April

cheers
Cliff

I know yet again :dh:

YIKES ... now THERE'S a scarey image



Ma Yappy

[Rob Dyba]

Pedr, don't think of it as a Ford diff, it is an Australian carrier diff, and was most likely used as it was to hand & the wheel base etc suited the carrier parts bieng used on the conversion. Let's see when the rest of it turns up.....

Rob