Universal carrier pulling a 17pdr.....HOW? Arnhem

[Alex van de Wetering]

A good friend is preparing a new Market Garden book. While doing research, he found multiple accounts of Airborne MkIII Carriers being used to pull 17pounders from their positions around Arnhem.
I hear you say....."the Morris C8/AT was the tractor for the 17pounder, not the carrier"..... and that's exacty that why I am posting it here! From the accounts it seems more than one Morris broke down and carriers were used as replacement.....but how?

As far as I know the Airborne carriers had their towing hook removed, so how would they have pulled a 17pdr? I don't think they would go to the trouble of removing the towing assembly from the Morris and putting it on the carrier....so....could they have used chains or a cable to secure the gun to the rear axle? or maybe the loops on the front armour and pulling it backwards? Any ideas?

There are rumours that airborne carrier crews were trained to use rope or chain to move different loads, including guns. Is anyone able to confirm this?

Last but not least....a 17pdr is a pretty heavy gun, if a carrier is used to pull it, wouldn't it point towards the stars with the nose, due to the heavy load???

Guys, any ideas are more than welcome.

regards,

Alex

[Niels V]

Didnt the carriers have two "eyes" on the rear, I think with rope/wire/chain it should be possible to two a gun specially if it had a jockey wheel.
The regular 17Pdr QF AT is pretty damm heavy, I move one regularly, and would imagine that a carrier would struggle, maybe the use the same principle as the Germans and lashed two carries together when towing?
But I am guessing that they didn't think much about if the carries would struggle, and in the situation just did what ever it took

[shaun]

Yes, The 17pdr is a heavy gun , but very well balanced.infact the 6pdr is far heavier on the hitch than a 17pdr ( I have both )
A carrier would not bat an eye lid at towing a 17pdr. Easy to hitch up with chains ( I doubt at the time in action they would be to worried about scratching some paint on the tool plate)

[Petr Brezina]

The "airborne spec" carrier from the rear. Seems to be possible to chain up 17pdr to the lifting eyes. I think it just needed a tricky driving when using the brakes - to not to damage differential, other parts were not important.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Niels, Shaun, Petr,

Thanks for your comments and ideas. Very much appreciated!
We did indeed speak about the lifting eyes...I just wasn't sure they were beefy enough to take the weight of the 17pdr.

Yes, The 17pdr is a heavy gun , but very well balanced.infact the 6pdr is far heavier on the hitch than a 17pdr ( I have both )

That's interesting Shaun....so that would mean the Carrier would stay pretty level with the 17pdr hooked up(?)....or would it still climb with the nose, when the crew started actually pulling?

Alex

[Jim Burrill]

Holland is Flat!

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Jim Burrill

Holland is Flat!

Not so much around Nijmegen... and there are bits around Oosterbeek which are a bit hilly.

[charlie fitton]

...and the carrier may well sit level enough, but when you pull off...

[shaun]

If you look at WW2 photos of carriers loaded hi with kit the sprocket is near on the floor . Carriers pull 17pdrs easily ..... I. At get the carrier out and hang the gun on and post a little video

[Ben]

We towed a 17pdr with a T16 earlier this year, obviously slightly different to a MK2 but it was no problem at all. It's a relatively heavy gun but very easy to move as it's well balanced.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Guys,

Thanks for all your comments, thoughts and ideas.....very much appreciated!
Tim is correct that even though Holland is pretty flat, certain areas do show some hills....and also the soil in certain regions is quite soggy, which was a big problem with tanks in 1944/45. I presume soggy ground and heavy 17pounders is not an ideal combo either.

I. At get the carrier out and hang the gun on and post a little video

Shaun....that would be awesome!


By the way....just out of interest....is there anyone who has a restored carrier configured to Airborne specs? I don't think I have seen any in Nigels books. I do know I have seen one or two in airborne markings at the Arnhem Remembrance, but I don't think those had the airborne modifications (or omissions).

regards,

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Some of you asked about the book I mentioned at the start of the this thread. Sorry if my post was a bit misleading, but the book will not centre around Allied artillery (there already is a book on that subject), but will focus on the German part in Market Garden.

Marcel Zwarts is the author. Marcel already did a small book on German units at Arnhem for Concord publications a long time ago, but this new book will be published under his own name . It will describe the German units involved and will cover in detail the vehicles and contraptions they used in the fight, including maps and sketches describing fight on street level and info on the Allied "enemy" they faced.

As German sources for info are limited, Marcel also studied allied sources and that's where the story of the 17pdr's pulled by carriers comes in. New info has been uncovered that gives a great view of each specific troop, members, battle locations etc. of 17pdr's and 6pdrs.
Some of this info will be included in the book, but as it's a bit out of the scope for the book, the remaining info will be made available in PDF format for those interested (and if the contributors of the info agree on it's publication)

There is no release date for the book yet; as you know these specalised books are often written in spare time and Marcels book is no exception.


Alex

[Petr Brezina]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

....is there anyone who has a restored carrier configured to Airborne specs?

As there are almost none surviving (or known) british welded Mk.III's I doubt about it. Mine would be fine for that, but Im restoring her to the standard spec. For now

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

I know from a Market garden veteran that a Morris with 17 pounder was pulled out of a Hamilcar wich, was tipped over, with a carrier, to rescue te crew , perhaps they put the 17 pounder into use and pulled it with the carrier. Or the story was so changed in the years that the pull out of the Hamilcar is changed in pulling the 17 pounder?

Groet.

Hendrik

[Rob van Meel]

Interesting to hear. Could be akward as carriers came under each of the infantry battalions, and the anti tank Bty fell under CRA, with the 17-pndrs were in individual troops attached to each of the three brigades and the fourth troop to div HQ if I remember correctly.
Would be interested in seeing the sources of the statements as to see to what extend these described the change-over from Morris to Carrier. The post Arnhem CRA reports do not mention anything towards this, nor did any of either of the Arnhem AT bty veterans in the years that I took the Morris up.

But never too old to learn.