WD / Census Number tags

[chris vickery]

I was reading that vehciles were issued WD or census numbers upon issuance from VRD.

I assume VRD stands for vehicle registration department.

It is also stated that vehicle would have had a tag with the issued number affixed to the steering column via wire and a self locking seal.

My question is this; was this a common practice and has anyone ever found the WD number as issued in this manner?

I have never seen it anywhere on any cmp I have encountered here in Canada. Of course WD numbers seem to be a continental thing once vehs were shipped overseas.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Interesting! After assembly in the UK, Canadian order vehicles were allocated a "CMD" number for transit purposes for delivery to the Vehicle Census branch, RCOC. The CMD series may have started with # CMD 1001 and then in due course each assembly operation was allocated a CMD series as an identifier.

[Richard Farrant]

Chris,

Cannot answer specifically for CMP / Canadian vehicles, but as they were allocated WD Census Numbers from Chilwell, here goes. VRD was Vehicle Reserve Depot, which received new vehicles from manufacturers, assemblers, etc. British made vehicles, sometimes had their census numbers applied at the factory and were issued in order of chassis numbers. This helps us now as a few known numbers, we can fill the gaps in. But..........with Bedfords at least, I think the number was probably allocated at a VRD as they are not in chassis number order, likewise with CMP, it would have been impossible, so those that were shipped to England were allocated groups of numbers to each contract. Take a look at the Chilwell list of B vehicles and this can be seen.

The first VRD was at Donnington Park on the prewar race circuit and surrounding area. Others were situated close to manufacturers for accessibility.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1. However GM Ltd ,when they first started assembly of CMPs, allocated 'GML 1' etc. which was presumably before they knew what numbers were allocated...I assume that they were driven to Chilwell for numbers to be painted on.

2. As regards assembly companies that I know of that assembled Canadian and British vehicles, the photo evidence shows that Census Numbers were allocated as per vehicle as it went down the line, having the numbers painted on after the camo had been put on, presumably in accordance with batch allocations. Canadian vehicles had CMD numbers applied pending Bordon allocating numbers. They were delivered from Southampton, Slough, Liverpool, Goole, we know with CMD numbers. The RCOC Vehicle Census Branch was initially located in Aldershot, as part of 1 Det, RCOC, Aldershot, and then moved to Bordon Camp in June 1940. Vehicles assembled in Southampton were initially issued from around 8th June 1940 at the Mechanical Transport Vehicle Reception Depot at Bordon. After the RCOC had moved into Bordon, vehicles were delivered to what became the 1 Canadian Corps Ordnance Depot (RCOC MT Depot). This, with the Census Branch, transferred from 1 Det to 2 Det in April 1940.

3. As regards Bedfords I can attest from photo evidence that Luton delivered in 1940-41 vehicles with WD census Numbers that had been painted on the line. This was after trade plates were no longer required for delivery.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

3. As regards Bedfords I can attest from photo evidence that Luton delivered in 1940-41 vehicles with WD census Numbers that had been painted on the line. This was after trade plates were no longer required for delivery.

David,

I think things may have changed regarding Bedfords in particular after 1941-ish. Looking a original record cards for that make from around 1942-3 onward, census numbers did not run in any kind of order to chassis numbers. My guess is that any requiring fault rectification or any other hold ups did not arrive at VRD until later hence discrepencies.

[rewdco]

Chris,
Don't know if this can help: I have been wondering for quite a long time what the "data tag" next to the girder forks of this motorcycle was for. Unfortunately, I can't read the exact text on it, but it looks like a number to me... Could it be the same kind of tag you were talking about? Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???
Cheers,
Jan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Richard, thanks for that. I don't know if anyone knew or knows of Tony Beadle, formerly of American Car World, Triumph World, Porsche World? His father worked for the Ministry of Supply from 1940 and was based I think at the AEC works in Southall. He covered the Vauxhall boxing plant cum repair works in Hendon, and various other west London contractors. It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

Going back to spring-autumn 1940, the Southampton CMD was regrettably not immune from the delivery of defective vehicles, and apart from vehicles delivered to Bordon being sent back for rectification work, major problems were experienced with axles that required input from the RCOC in Aldershot to sort out. The return of vehicles from the RCOC depot meant that they were subject to the Luftwaffe's blitz on Southampton 30 Nov/1 Dec and thus lost. The Salvage unit at Bordon then came into its own...which is another story!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rewdco

Chris,
Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???

Jan,

The registration number, GXU... is one of a batch used by Civil Defence and similar organisations. The photo caption say " volunteer DR", they could have been for the National Fire Service perhaps?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, that motorcycle has a London County Council civilian registration, dating it seems to late war (GXU started August 1943 and ran in theory to November 1946). Other m/cs that had civilian registrations included the St John Ambulance and Red Cross, and Auxiliary / National Fire Service. I wondered if the number you mentioned was a stock number for the frame?

Note also the Road Fund Licence holder with no visible, so far as I can see, tax disc. It may have been exempt as being on His Majesty's Service under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Fire, Police and Ambulance vehicles were also 'exempt' (actually as now I think they had to be taxed but had a 'nil' charge) but for different reasons as they were emergency vehicles. Or it was required to be taxed but at the nil rate and removing the disc eliminated any dating of the photo.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

David,

All that makes perfect sense, with inexperienced labour, faults were bound to occur and with parts and facilities at the factory, it makes sense to rectify there, anyway, it is doubtful the MoS inspector would sign them out until they were in order. A thought has just occured, that perhaps the reason that census numbers are out of line with chassis numbers, is that any vehicle held back were not numbered until signed out. The VRD were no more than open storage areas, often on grass. They would accept vehicles, then issue from there once demands came in for that particular type.

[rewdco]

Richard, David,

You're reading my mind... Indeed, I was also pretty sure that this bike was used by the NFS or a similar organisation. But census numbers were issued for each and every WD/CO that left the factory during the war...???

Could it be that these motorcycles originally had a census number, but when they were taken over by the NFS, this number was omitted?

Cheers,
Jan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think this machoine is being assembled for the Civil Defence. It is in the batch of shots of a Civil Defence solo and sidecar-combo school.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

David,

Most of those machines have Royal Navy serials on them

[Rich Payne]

I have seen reference to the Canadian Forces in the U.K. receiving block issues of tags and seals displaying census numbers for fitment as Chris says to the steering columns and the fork parts on motorcycles as a form of permanent identification. These were issued in blocks alongside the WD Census numbers that were block- allocated to Canadian-owned vehicles.

This seems perhaps sensible in a situation where the temptation to 'acquire' a replacement vehicle from whatever source if the original became damaged or lost would have been considerable.

It would seem logical that the seal was removed and returned for cancellation when the vehicle was officially struck off charge.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, War Department Census Numbers were allocated to vehicles that were purchased, requisitioned, gifted to, or whatever and acquired by the Ministry of Supply for the War Office & Air Ministry, and by the Admiralty for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines. Up to 1940 these had to have civilian registrations and the Census Number was just that! From 1940, no tax disc was required, and the requirement to register vehicles (in the Middlesex County Council in practice) was abandoned in favour of reliance on the WD Number.

The Ministry of Supply with the Ministry of War Transport also acquired vehicles of all types for Government users, such as staff cars for official use, Air Ministry staff, Salvage Corps, local authorities, police, fire services, et al. These had civilian registrations either in Government-allocated batches by the Middlesex County Council, or by London County Council, or regional local authorities. In addition there were various ambulance authorities, church and religious groups, Ministry of Food, etc. vehicles that were often military types with civilian or military tyres but carrying civilian registrations.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I count perhaps three with 'RN' on the tank and four with civvy registrations. Given the standard uniforms were they donated m/cs? There are more shots in the series and it seems that an official visit was made to a CD HQ and the training school.

[ted angus]

Certainly looks at least 3 are RN

Regarding GXU : My understanding is GXU was reserved for vehicles purchased via the Office of Works for the Home Office (Min of Home Security) I have the following of the GXU block as Royal Enfield 350cc for the NFS. GXU 112 - 169 ; 307 - 333 ; 765 - 868 ;
NFS vehicles were finished to BS 381 tint 32 Dk Ad grey. In some photos they look very light this is to do with the type of B&W film employed.
In the WW2 emergency servies set up the NFS was the major user of DRs, columns of vehicles moving hundreds of miles with numerous DRs in attendance.
TED

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

I count perhaps three with 'RN' on the tank and four with civvy registrations. Given the standard uniforms were they donated m/cs? There are more shots in the series and it seems that an official visit was made to a CD HQ and the training school.

David,

Interesting photo of a mixed bunch of machines, thanks

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hope these interest

[chris vickery]

If you look closely at the pic Jan provided you will see that there is a number painted on what appears to be a black tag with white paint aside the column. It begins wit 2142xxx, hard to make out.

Back to my original question; has anyone ever seen the WD tags as affixed by VRD on any cmp they have come across???

[rewdco]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

Thanks for sharing this one with us David!

This was the first time that I saw a "normal" picture with the rare "model CO" (not the "WD/CO", only 100 of these model CO's have been built, in two contracts of 50 each for the Royal Navy). I had only seen it in official Royal Enfield publicity pictures before...

Jan

(To Chris Vickery: sorry for hi-jacking your thread Chris... )

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It is handy to have access toi so many photos! The shots are available to purchase as prints or scanned images at very reasonable rates from my contact. They were possibly originally from MOTOR CYCLING or THE MOTOR-CYCLE.

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

Jan, War Department Census Numbers were allocated to vehicles that were purchased, requisitioned, gifted to, or whatever and acquired by the Ministry of Supply for the War Office & Air Ministry, and by the Admiralty for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines. Up to 1940 these had to have civilian registrations and the Census Number was just that! From 1940, no tax disc was required, and the requirement to register vehicles (in the Middlesex County Council in practice) was abandoned in favour of reliance on the WD Number.

The Ministry of Supply with the Ministry of War Transport also acquired vehicles of all types for Government users, such as staff cars for official use, Air Ministry staff, Salvage Corps, local authorities, police, fire services, et al. These had civilian registrations either in Government-allocated batches by the Middlesex County Council, or by London County Council, or regional local authorities. In addition there were various ambulance authorities, church and religious groups, Ministry of Food, etc. vehicles that were often military types with civilian or military tyres but carrying civilian registrations.

David, regarding non military users: vehicles for the Home Office(Min Home of Security) and Scottish Office [i.e.pre- 41 AFS, NFS 41-48, CD rescue services] were aquired through contracts raised by the Office (later Ministry )of Works. In 1938 when the HO needed to start procuring vehicles and equipment to meet the deteriorating international situation, it did not have its own contracts and purchasing dept. With the permission of the Treasury they used the OoW resources for the task, a post -1948 HO report I have an extract from, gives this info and makes a point that the arrangement worked well and continued through the war. In addition all emergency fire fighting vehicles and equipment for use by HM forces and all other HMG ministries and depts for war emergency purposes were combined with HO requirements and contracted by the OoW, not the MoS.

Regarding census numbers you say WD census number ----------allocated for vehicles ...........for the War office, Air Min & Admiralty ?? was this statement a generalisation ?? WD numbers on RAF & RN vehicles ???

TED

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Firstly, the Treasury Exchange Requirements Commmittee papers make very good reading as it relates to provision of imported vehicles and spare parts for them for the forces, including in Egypt, and the UK. These were initialy handled by the War Office and Air Ministry but the MofS took over that function during 1940. However the ERC also handled requests for vehicles from other departments and local authorities, including one I remember for Dodge trucks for the London County Council for salvage work. The

The MofS had to compete for essential dollars with other departments etc. on the Committee and the minutes make very interesting reading as it shows how the requests for vehicles came through the system, including certain well-placed individuals who liked to push through their demands through civil servants. "Whom you know not what you know". I was interested to note your clarifications Ted...clearly there is another element to the procurement procedures that I was not aware of.

The MofS in theory had overall responsibility for supply for vehicles and parts and machinery and this continued of course post-war (except for the Navy in theory who seem to have attempted to retain their independence). It would seem that orders by other departments had to go through committees so that they could be combined if required, and also the MofS handled disposals on paper to government departments or essential users of former service vehicles and machinery. The MofS also processed all Demands for overseas orders for the UK forces and Commonwealth forces. The payments though were handled through the agreed system via the High Commissions and the Treasury.

And I do apologise...'WD numbers' is something I tend to use in conversation with those who would not know what Census Number was...
WD series, Air Ministry series and Admiralty series!

One question keeps niggling me, and I would be interested to know the answer. Did the Scottish Office and any vehicles procured for government departments in Scotland through the Government departments carry Edinburgh registrations as against Middlesex CC ones? Also that Scottish hospitals had imported Canadian / US chassis bodied as ambulances registered in Scottish local authorities. Were m/cs therefore delivered north of the border registered accordingly?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

An explanation for the indifference by certain sections of government departments until and just after ‘Lend-Lease’ is that the Treasury held the purse-strings in relation to dollar expenditure, U.S. or Canadian, through the Exchange Requirements Committee that had been established in September 1939 to regulate the outflow of British currency reserves. In addition on 2 November 1939, as hoped for by the Foreign Office, the U.S. Senate approved the amendment of the Neutrality Acts to allow the U.S. to supply arms and equipment to the Allies on a cash-and-carry basis. The Ministry of Supply was beholden to the E.R.C. for approval of any foreign acquisitions including for forces overseas and that included both Canadian and U.S. [‘North American’] purchases.

It does seem that factions in the MofS and ERC had their own opinions: the MofS and probably other purchasing departments had their own agenda such as deciding that they wanted such-and-such equipment from say the USA. However the ERC held the hand-bag with the dollars in it, and there was often a very close scrutiny with some heated arguments about "Is this purchase with Dollars really ncessary?". Then again there were arguments about US supply versus Canadian...Canadians take our Pounds but the Americans can supply under Defence Aid then Lend-Lease. I shall have to dig out my ERC minutes and start a new thread in the future.

[ted angus]

Committees, committees, committees! numerous committees are mentioned in the report I quoted. Away from the military it was a miracle the civilian services were ready for war when it came. ARP was a local authority responsibility, however for the mass of fire fighting kit the HO envisaged to be required, standardisation had to prevail, they and the OoW also knew to produce all this stuff in the time they perceived as being availible, action was needed not words. Strange there were dissenters even in those dark days there was a least one London borough that took no part in ARP and everything for them was run by HQ 5 region.
The Imperial Defence committee and various others were involved. plus the ERC as hose had to be imported initially from France then from the USA. Lots of legislation had to be passed to enable central gov to pay for all the emergency fire equipment, and then issue it into the care of local authorities. However it all happened and just in the nick of time.
Initially vehicles used by the ARP/CD rescue services, ambulance and casualty services, anti -gas org etc were found by the relevant local authority hence the butchers vans and builders trucks suddenly taking on new roles.
Time progressed several bulk orders for rescue vehicles were placed by the HO and from the info contained in the report I quoted, such orders would again have been through OoW. These included the Austin K3 (and lesser quantity of Bedford OW) column rescue tenders (GUU and GXA and GLY reg).
also smaller batches of Fordson WOA2 light rescue vehicles operated by the GPO and CD services, other light rescue trucks were based on Austin K2 and Fordson WOT3 GS trucks. The CD rescue and Salvage service also had batches of International tippers and Cranes imported from the US. see attached . All the aforementioned were registered in the familiar LCC blocks. In any order placed by the HO (unless an item was to a specific one off requirement), a portion of any order would be for Scotland. Scottish Office reps sat alongside the HO reps at all the relevant committees.
This would cover all the vehicles we have mentioned so those sent north bore the LCC reg- just as vehicles in the post 1948 AFS/CD org did. So this would be the case for motor cycles allocated to CD/AFS/NFS north of the border.
Ambulances came from a variety of funds. Many were converted cars , vans etc and continued to carry their existing reg number. THe war organisation of BRC and St Johns (funded through donations) were able to order (I presume via MoS) a large number of the familiar military pattern Austin K2 , these were used in convoy mainly to move military casualties from ports to railway stations then from the destination station to war hospitals etc. These had LCC blocks of reg numbers. post D Day they operated ambulance convoys from the CCSs to Mulberry running in France with LCC reg numbers.
Another organisation operating LCC registered K2s was the AMERCAN AMBULANCE GREAT BRITIAN org, funded by a USA charity called the US Field Service these vehicles again bore LCC blocks of reg numbers.

I have never found evidence of central buying of Ambulances;
If the vehicles in question were donated to a particular town or city or funded by a local authority I would expect a local registration, It seems throughtout the war, the provision of ambulances remained a local authority responsibility hence they would normally carry a local reg number. Again this practice was to be seen in post 1948 new buys of CD ambulances , thery frequently bore a registration reflecting county or borough of allocation. Time to close
TED

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have just started a new thread with info on wartime civvy Chevrolets which I shall update/improve in due course. The ERC minutes show that by late 1940/early 1941 some members were getting fractious about the surfeit of ambulances that were being donated, or hoisted on to the government departments. They understandably would have preferred chassis and chassis-cabs for essential user work but the US donations were of course hamstrung by the Neutrality Acts. Of course Fords also came over, donated by a host of people and organisations. Recipients of donated vehicles for ambulance, canteen, food drops, etc. included British Red Cross, British-American Ambulance Corps, St John Ambulance, Church Army, Salvation Army, Church of Scotland.

I would be interested to know who was responsible for NAAFI vehicles, as they received Dagenham-built civvy-registered Fordson vans for instance, as well as heavier chassis for mobile canteens. Then there were the Queens Messengers / Ministry of Food Guy Ants, Fordson 7V vehicles...it goes on! Something to be discussed again.

I would finish though by mentioning Red Cross vehicles. It seems that Polish RC Chevrolets, presumably funded in part by Americans, were registered as military vehicles in the Polish series. However, British RC ambulances that I know of had civvy regos but in some cases were driven by FANY drivers, and allocated to military bases.

[ted angus]

Re Naafi vehicles, there were 2 arms to Naafi, during WW2 in UK purely civillian manned, I do not recall seeing anything special about reg numbers possibly all registered from the NAAFI HQ in London. But nothing I have seen leads me to believe they were from HMG LCC blocks.
In operational areas overseas the title became NAAFI/EFI EFI = Expeditionary Forces Institute. under the control of RASC all personnel were in uniform and RASC badged but unarmed. Mobile canteens were supplied by Naafi , all other vehicles by WD so I presume these carried a WD census./ I will have a dig through my pictures.
Re B R C I think there major war role was in direct support of HMF often up to the front line in N W Europe.
TED

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Several photos of a Dagenham Motors conversion of a E83W NAAFI Refreshment Van has the rego FGW 920.