census (WD) number MK1 carrier

[paul visser]

Hi, who can help me with finding a canadian army census number for our Brencarrier.

Canadian build Mk1* with number 12703.

Best regards,
Paul Visser

[Lynn Eades]

Paul,can you show us pictures? Based on Nigel Watson's (excellent!) books, the number TL 12703 belongs to a Thornycroft (British) MkI U.C.
However CT112703 would be part of a Canadian Ford built U.C. (Mk not identified) from contract CDLV435.
Does that help?

[Michael R.]

Where are you taking this number 12703 from? The MK-I* U.C. has four locations showing lower hull number, upper hull number, serial number, and WD number.

[paul visser]

the number coms from a angel line at the rear. no other numbers are there as far as i know.

[Michael R.]

The Census or War Department (WD) number information you seek cannot be determined from the lower hull number. Sadly, at the present time it is not possible to determine the WD number from the upper hull number or serial number either.

The lower hull number does not appear on the Data Plate. It is not used in any reporting for spares during service life.

From examining the lower hull you can quickly determine if the hull is a C01UC or C21UCM. If the hull came from Canada post war, it was likely made for a Canadian CDLV contract. I will look for a closer date, but at first blush you may have a build date between late January, 1943 and early March, 1943. During this same period the CDLV 1555 contract was producing both C01UC and C21UCM models, the C21UCM models bear a data plate indicating it is a 'NO-2'.

C21UCM is the factory designation for the production run of 3" mortar carriers. They were produced from MK-I* hulls. All unnecessary fastener holes punched into the MK-I* hulls were factory closed with rivets before delivery to the Ford assembly factory. The C21UCM hulls are quite distinctive, and represent less than ten percent of the MK-I* series production.

[Lynn Eades]

So, like these examples.

[paul visser]

the problem is it came with no upper armour, but is is imported from Canada.

[Michael R.]

Other than direct comparison with existing examples, the best printed source outside of research at Archives Canada may be Nigel Watson, in 'Universal Carriers, Volume I. Pages 289-301. The issue is that the WD numbers were not applied sequentially to serial numbers.

[Lynn Eades]

There is no info in Nigels books to tie a hull number to a T number, so what examples are there out there that might be close to Paul's hull number?

[Michael R.]

I estimate the lower hull Paul has was made in the first week of February, 1943. Once Paul determines if it is a C01UC or C21UCM we could look for comparable examples that have either the Data Plate or the driver front armour data. Working backwards we could identify the series of WD numbers using the material Nigel Watson published. By example, CT112283 - CT114302, or CT161787 -CT162284 for the C01UC plus CT162911 - CT163910 for the C21UCM series.

However, when looking at carriers produced within days of each other, the WD numbers do not reflect that timing. Until more information surfaces, we can only guesstimate.

[paul visser]

Thank's for the info. I Will post some photo's soon and start a Hunt for more nummers.

[paul visser]

All of te dated parts that came off are dated 1942.

[paul visser]

The photo's from the carrier, the rear armour is Original and the front is replaced becouse it was gone.

[Michael R.]

Swell job! It looks fit for a Koning.

[paul visser]

some photo's from the body and engine with serial number 8532

[Michael R.]

I suspect the 8532 number on your RCEME rebuild tag from 204 B.W.S. is a sequential numbering system of a rebuild program, not related to the factory engine numbers. At least two other BWS did rebuilds using lower numbering sequences.

204 Base Work Shop, RCEME:
October, 1950: 5000
September, 1951: 6500
October, 1951: 6650
March, 1953: 8532

If the original C81 block has not been replaced, the factory engine serial number should appear on the manifold deck, starting with letters 'TL', and ending with F.
For example: TL 13776 F. You could also see a letter 'V' after the 'F', along with some Inspector stamps.