A Solenoid Question

[Richard Hughes]

RE my last thread ' Advice Wanted' the quest is still ongoing for a 6 volt positive earth solenoid .

As alot of the CMP Ford electrical stuff is the same as early Ford Mercury ( I realise this is a little off topic) is the solenoid the same ( ie as above 6 volt positive earth) part number 21A-11450 as all the manuals I have don't seem to give a part number.

I have finally tracked down someone in the States who has parts but has 3 or 4 variations of solenoid so I want to make sure I get the right one.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Tony Smith]

In the Ford CMP parts manuals the solenoid is listed as 01A-11450 A.
Macs Antique Auto parts has them listed as 01A-11450 (Steel case solenoid with starter button). Works on 6v positive earth. 21A-11450 is listed as a Bakelite case without button, but cheaper. We get the steel case solenoids here regularly at swap meets fairly cheaply, but they're Chinese or Indian made and last a matter of months before dying.
www.macsauto.com/index.html

[Keith Webb]

Is it the solenoid which determines pos or neg earth?
And, on the modern 12v solenoids of the same shape there are two terminals as opposed to the one on an old CMP one (the small one which is connected to the starter button). What's the other used for, is it accessories?

[Tony Smith]

A solenoid has no polarity (Pos earth, Neg earth) but is voltage specific. The solenoids with one small terminal rely on the mounting tabs to grounded. Supply battery power to the small terminal will energise the solenoid and connect the two large terminals (On some solenoids, the contacts are normally closed amd supplying power will break the contacts). On solenoids with two small terminals, the body is insulated and the two small terminals need to be wired to battery (usually through a switch) and earth, which will then connect the two large terminals. Solenoids are available in a range of voltages (6v, 12v, 24v) and configurations (Grounded body, two terminal, contacts open or contacts closed). Solenoids with the push button like the original 01A-11450 A are becoming hard to source. All the button does is manually close the contacts, which is handy to turn the starter when you're in the engine bay doing a tune up..

[Phil Waterman]

The 6volt solenoids with button are very common to Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury of the forties and fifties. Though, they are designed for different voltages I’ve seen the 6 volt work well on cars converted to 12 volt. Not sure of the other way around.

My 49 Lincoln has two of them one for the starter and one for the hydraulic pump for the windows. The biggest advantage of the button is for checking a starting problem is battery really not turning over or is the ignition switch at fault. I think the button was done away with in the fifties because it was possible to start the car in gear from under the hood if the key was left on. Also, it did make the cars very easy to hot wire the car.

I’ve only had one of these fail and it was on my 89 Ford Taurus the wire for the solenoid coil broke of inside the case. Started the car with a pair of pliers connecting the two side terminals with the handles, when I got home drilled out the two rivets holding the end cap on and re-soldered the lead until I could get a replacement.

[Richard Hughes]

Thanks all for your replies and help.
The reason I thought solenoids were positive or negative earth is because I was told this by 2 different auto electricians.

Cheers
Richard Hughes

Originally posted by Richard Hughes
Thanks all for your replies and help.
The reason I thought solenoids were positive or negative earth is because I was told this by 2 different auto electricians.

Cheers
Richard Hughes

Hmmmmm, then perhaps you should use the term auto and electrician somewhat loosely in the case of these two people.

Lets be absolutely basic, a "solenoid" is a cylindrical coil of wire acting as a magnet when a current is passed through it. The term has found worldwide mis-use for a relay or contactor used to switch the high current supply to the engine starter motor.

A solenoid, when having a laminated iron core to intensify and concentrate the magnetic field, is called an armature; these are found in motors and relays/contactors.

Similarly mis-named worldwide is the ignition coil which is actually two coils mutually (by magnetic field paths) coupled together and is in fact a transformer.

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by FV623
a "solenoid" is a cylindrical coil of wire acting as a magnet when a current is passed through it. The term has found worldwide mis-use for a relay or contactor used to switch the high current supply to the engine starter motor.

A solenoid, when having a laminated iron core to intensify and concentrate the magnetic field, is called an armature;

Well, it is obvious why a starter solenoid is so called, because there would be utter confusion if it were called an armature, because then you would have two starter armatures on a vehicle.

Richard

[Tony Smith]

So what's an Accumulator and why don't we call them by that name any more?

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Well, it is obvious why a starter solenoid is so called, because there would be utter confusion if it were called an armature, because then you would have two starter armatures on a vehicle.

Richard

Still a misnomer as an armature is only a part of the relay/contactor device, if you read the previous post.

R.

Originally posted by Tony Smith
So what's an Accumulator and why don't we call them by that name any more?

Probably the same reason that wireless became radio; unless its a bit of computer add-on that is.

The reference works suggest the usage of accumulator for a large, rechargeable electric cell is peculiarly British.

Similarly you don't hear much about charabancs these days either although we seem to have plenty of busses.

If you think Lucas is bad, try Miller electrics. . . . . . . . . . . .

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
The reference works suggest the usage of accumulator for a large, rechargeable electric cell is peculiarly British.

Or accu as we say in Dutch.

H.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
So what's an Accumulator and why don't we call them by that name any more?

Accumulator was the name given to the rechargeable cells which our parents or grandparents had to have in order to listen to the wireless (as it was called in those days). Battery is the name given for a collective of cells, as in "battery of guns", etc. therefore the term accumulater does not really apply to a battery, it is more like a battery is a collection of accumulaters.

I have no doubt "he who has all the answers" will correct me on this

Richard

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Accumulator was the name given to the rechargeable cells which our parents or grandparents had to have in order to listen to the wireless (as it was called in those days). Battery is the name given for a collective of cells, as in "battery of guns", etc. therefore the term accumulater does not really apply to a battery, it is more like a battery is a collection of accumulaters.

Most likely, "battery" being a name for a collection of things and "battery of accumulators" is somewhat awkward indeed.

Surprisingly the illustrated (and very detailed) "Motoring Encyclopedia" of, we guess, mid 30's owing to the vehicles depicted; has one short 36 word paragraph on "Battery" that ends "See Accumulator"!! This latter section covers several pages with copious pictures.

Perhaps a WWII rationalisation of terms, especially with the off-shore influences.

I have no doubt "he who has all the answers" will correct me on this

I should have cleaned my spectacles and seen the exposed nerve.

:idea: I'll see Mr. Winnington-Ball immediately for a very hard smack, that'll make it right.

R.

[Corey Myronuk]

ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS ARE A FORM OF ELECTRIC ACCUMULATORS ARE THEY NOT?


JUST A THOUGHT

[Tony Smith]

Yes, I was thinking of a Battery, but I suppose a capacitor will also accumulate an electric charge.

Originally posted by FV623

The reference works suggest the usage of accumulator for a large, rechargeable electric cell is peculiarly British.
R.

Hey, we're talking about misnomers here, "Peculiarly British" is a tautology.
I thought the term "Accumulator" had dropped from usage to avoid confusion between the old item and the owner of many such old items.

Originally posted by DUUANE
ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS ARE A FORM OF ELECTRIC ACCUMULATORS ARE THEY NOT?


JUST A THOUGHT

Indeed they are, but not too good in the volume/capacity stakes. Originally made literally in jars and way back the unit of measurement was indeed the Jar of a given volume!

Here's a bit of fun:
http://www.alaska.net/~natnkell/leyden.htm

R.

[Richard Farrant]

I know this is right off the original subject, but to carry on regarding Accumulaters, they are, since the 1940's something completely different.

An accumulater is to be found in some hydraulic systems and consist of a cylinder with either a bag filled with compessed gas within it or a piston, one side being charged with gas and the other, oil from the system. They can act as a shock absorber or to store energy within the system.

Maybe in Southampton it is called something else?

The English language is wonderful for using the same word to mean different things

Richard

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I know this is right off the original subject, but to carry on regarding Accumulaters, they are, since the 1940's something completely different.

An accumulater is to be found in some hydraulic systems and consist of a cylinder with either a bag filled with compessed gas within it or a piston, one side being charged with gas and the other, oil from the system. They can act as a shock absorber or to store energy within the system.

Maybe in Southampton it is called something else?

Nope, just the same here in the deep south as in Hopland. We of course have yet another official meaning of accumulator just to confuse it more: "A bet placed on a series of events, the winnings and stake from each being placed on the next."

The English language is wonderful for using the same word to mean different things.

But better than some old languages, I had to interface with a Chinese defence delegation some years ago, via an interpreter of course. . . . . . . . .

English. . . . . . . . . . . .Literal translation.

Missile. . . . . . . . . . . .Troublesome thing
Bullet. . . . . . . . . . . . .Troublesome thing
Bomb. . . . . . . . . . . . .Troublesome thing
Warhead. . . . . . . . . . .Troublesome thing
Shell. . . . . . . . . . . . . Troublesome thing
Initiator. . . . . . . . . . .Troublesome thing

Hmmmmmmmm.

R.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

...a 'motor' to a North American is an 'engine' to the rest of the world, and in the rest of the world a 'motor' is electrically-powered and usually provided by current from an accumulator aka battery! However, in railway parlance, an 'engine' is a 'locomotive', and a diesel-electric locomotive has an engine and motors! Forgive me but I have spent over a week doing nothing but editing a book on diesel-electric locomotives written by a guy whose English is worse than my 7-year old's!

Just thought, to us of a certain age, a Morris Minor had a 'starter', which meant that when the accumulator was flat so not providing power to the starter motor, the Husband was used to start the engine with a starting handle inserted into the crankshaft end...hence Husband = starter!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
...a 'motor' to a North American is an 'engine' to the rest of the world, and in the rest of the world a 'motor' is electrically-powered and usually provided by current from an accumulator aka battery!

David,

This reminds be of one of my Australian visits. I was with four Australian friends, all mv enthusiasts and we were on our way to the annual show at Corowa. We stayed at a pub in a small country town, Narrandara for those that know it. No breakfast was served at the pub, so my friends went off to look for a cafe. I suggested we get the motor (a Land Rover, which had all our kit in it ) and bring along to the cafe. One of them, looked at me and dryly said "that if I wanted to pull the motor out, I could do it on my own".....from then on I had to remember not to call a vehicle a motor !

The person in question is a purveyor of Land Rovers and Blitzs and one time Cent owner, I am sure many from Vic and NSW will know who I mean and recognise his humour

Richard

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
David,

The person in question is a purveyor of Land Rovers and Blitzs and one time Cent owner, I am sure many from Vic and NSW will know who I mean and recognise his humour

Richard

Yes, I know who you're talking about and it just happens to be his Centurion pictured in another thread. Very dry sense of humour indeed. Good Lord, he can make you laugh.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Good Lord, he can make you laugh.

Got it in one, Tony !

Quite amazing that I should answer this then see the next message with your photo of his tank. I have not heard much from him since going up north. He always has some good stories to tell.

Richard

[Keith Webb]

Thanks, everyone for their assistance.

In the end, Robert Farmer (sparky by trade and CMP owner) came over to assist along with Ashley and Max and he just made it work... so well the first touch of the button it fired up!