Phil Waterman....help..!!!

Bob Carriere · #1 21-01-08, 19:49

...or any one else that can help me out on the floor layout of a cab 11/12 with winch.....

In the process of redoing my cab 11 I replaced the 1/4 inch floor plate (dot and dash) from a cab 12 which was far less corrored than my original floor....... mine had no dots/dash left in places.

My replacement plate came from a donor vehicle from Don in Hamilton.

The cab 12 floor had the advantage of having the 1/2 inch thick corner reinforcement plates.

Problem started when we tried to reinstall all the levers from the cab 11 with a transpanted winch..... to the cab 12 floor which never had a winch.

We have successfully modified the floor for the 2 speed lever but I am stuck with the exact location for the brake handle of the winch brake. I do have a winch brake lever from my cab 11 BUT I am not sure if it is original..... it is very similar to what I have seen on factory pictures of the CGT without the rear cab structure installed. A short straight handle with the typical Chev spring release squeeze handle. That brake handle seems to have a small adjustable rod that goes down almost vertical through the floor plate by means of a small oval cutout about 1 1/2 long by 5/8 wide......... ??? Where exactly is that cutout supposed to be in the floor on a cab 11/12.....???

Also.... in a cab 11 and a cab 12.... immediatley to the left of that brake arrangement is a small circular hole....... not the one for the 3 way fuel valve (which is bigger and has the typical 3 screw holes)....... there are no apparent screw holes next to that perfectly cut hole.... by the way the hole in the cab 11 is about 1 inch and in the cab 12 about 1 1/4 inch in diame. In Phil's web site, he shows the old floor plate next to the new one he made.... and that hole appears just next to the winch brake slot........
???? my best guestimate is the hole is used to route the battery cables to the under side of the truck from the battery box in the driver's compartment...??? Am I on the right track...???

I tried to fit the winch brake rod on that hole but it does not make much sense.

I also need a picture of the lower bracket that bolts on the floor for that brake handle.... I am not sure that what I have is original and I also need to see how that rod that goes through the floor is connected and held in place on the back side of the floor plate.

There is not much clearance underneath with the front axle in/out lever and the rod for the emergency brake cable to rear wheels.

I will take some recent pictures of my winch brake brackets for posting tonite.........

It's always the little things that confuse the most!!!!

Bob C.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #2 21-01-08, 20:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Carriere Bob C. [/B]

We have successfully modified the floor for the 2 speed lever but I am stuck with the exact location for the brake handle of the winch brake. I do have a winch brake lever from my cab 11 BUT I am not sure if it is original..... it is very similar to what I have seen on factory pictures of the CGT without the rear cab structure installed. A short straight handle with the typical Chev spring release squeeze handle. That brake handle seems to have a small adjustable rod that goes down almost vertical through the floor plate by means of a small oval cutout about 1 1/2 long by 5/8 wide......... ??? Where exactly is that cutout supposed to be in the floor on a cab 11/12.....???

Bob..
If everything else fails..Get Grant all lickered up...Take off his glasses...Light up the red wrench and give it to him and point him at that pesky 12 Cab...
If nothing else it will make dandy pix for our MLU brothers and sisters to see the results..
Your ever helpfull..
Brother AL

Bob Carriere · #3 21-01-08, 22:54

Grant was the one that managed to cut out pieces from the front section of the unsused cab 12 to patch up hole in the cab of the #12 and take such great care to line up the dots and dashes so the patch is almost invisible....

He has some hidden talents....... but I will not let him burn down the barn.....

Although he also found a neat way of launching sections of rubber brake lines flaming in the air when using a torch.... but I will let him explain that trick at Gracies......

hihihi

Bob

Phil Waterman · #4 21-01-08, 23:20

Hi Bob
No problem- - picture and detailed lay out to follow. I have detail photos of the original plate and of lever lay out. Also like all of the bits of the Pattern 12 that I have replaced I've saved the original for future reference. I’ll do a tracing of the bolt holes, battery cable holes, and linkage holes. I’ll be working in the shop tomorrow on the wiring harness so it will be no problem to bring down the floor plate from the loft.

Phil Waterman · #5 21-01-08, 23:24

Here is a picture of the Pattern 12 winch brake clevis in relation to the battery cable and transfer shift tower.

Bob Carriere · #6 22-01-08, 03:27

Ok now that is one question answered...... that small round hole is for the battery cables.....

Now on the second picture...... that is the rod that I have coming through the floor........ will have so search in my own pictures to show you the brake handle that it was connected to....

..... Now I know this is a long shot..... but do you have a picture of the linkage on the underside of the floor..... I know who takes pictures of the underside of the truck..... I am not sure my arrangement is close to original.....

I am also going to search in my own array of pictures to see what I have to illustrate my set up......

Thanks for the comeback....

Boob

Bob Carriere · #7 22-01-08, 04:11

Hi Phil

I have run through the GMfactory pcitures I had saved on my 'puter.....

This is a often duplicated picture of the guts of a cab11/12 CGT without the rear body..... look into the upper right corner.... you can see the lever and the bracket bolted to the floor very close to the driver's seat.....

Bob Carriere · #8 22-01-08, 04:14

......different cab same early vintage...... same bracket as mine....same handle...... handle is pressed steel instead of the cast/stamped steel of the E brake handle.... I have the same toothed hook showing on mine.....

Bob Carriere · #9 22-01-08, 04:17

.... can't seem to be able to stitch pictures together on ACDsee..

So it confirms that the bracket and the handle is correct....positioning can ONLY be so that the clevis rod will go through the elongated hole on the floor......

My remaining question is what is underneath the darn floor that connects the vertical rod of the handle to the rea rod to the winch brake......

...see my other picture....

Bob

Bob Carriere · #10 22-01-08, 04:26

Lesson one...... when you are taking apart you vehicle for restoration take at least 1000 pictures from every possible angle.... then take a break and take a few thousands more......

..... and then if lucky..... you might be short just a few....!!!!

This is a picture facing the rear...... on the left side of the picture .... you can see the large U shape sheet metal clevis.... the one with a spring contained inside to take up slack.... that once connected to the cam lever that connected to the vertical rod of the brake handle...

...it's the parts inbetween that has me puzzled......

It appear that the handle bracket is installed extremely close to the back wall and in fact uses the bolts of the back cab/angle iron arrangement to hold the last to rearmost bolts...... is this proper..??

Grant and I will be extremely relieved once we have solved that one...... after spending hours on Sunday trying to sort it out...

Boob

Boob

Bob Carriere · #11 22-01-08, 04:49

picture 2999 and here it is.... my bracket before I totally removed the back wall and the bracket.........

.....still can't tell what it is connected to underneath.....

Anybody with XRay vision...?

Phil Waterman · #12 23-01-08, 00:31

Hi Bob

I have all the measurements for the mounting and pictures of how it goes together, only one problem I can't get into my website server to post the lot will try again tomorrow.

For now here is a picture of whats under the floor.

Grant Bowker · #13 23-01-08, 01:15

Phil's last photo shows a bell crank arrangement to translate the vertical movement of the rod attached to the contol lever into horizontal movement to control the winch brake. The largest difference between the setup of his bell crank and yours is that his appears to be using the four bolts that anchor the brake lever support bracket above the floor to also anchor the bell crank assembly below the floor (that's after you ignore the difference in the crank itself). None of the channel under the floor that looks like "whatever we have in the scrap bin that will fit". Now we just need an original to compare it to. Doesn't the War Museum have a gun tractor? If they do, perhaps a recce is in order.

Bob Carriere · #14 23-01-08, 04:03

Just got in from 2 hours of snow duties......

Rob / Grant I dusted the tarp/Winter garage....except for Ted's which I hope will blow clean.....

Grant the straps reinforcements we installed made a real difference......

Now back to CMP buz-ness......

Nice picture Phil...... now was that the parts you found on the cab 12 or parts you fabricated...??? you usually do such a good job it looks store bought.....

It looks like the 4 bolts from the top bracket also hold the bottom bell crank....

I have a similar arrangement.... which I will photograph.... some parts such as the bellcrank are cast items and look original... the scrap piece of U channel they used to hold it in place was a torch cut item.....

Grant ... look at the linkage used by Phil for the E brake.... that is a cab 13 linkage...... will need to photo the cab 11/12 model for Phil......

Phil is there a way to do a plan of the winch bracket hole location using the battery cable hole and the 3 way valve hole as reference......even the battery box rear holes.....
Almost like a tracing from you old floor plate...... so I could overlay and mark mine.........

Grant may be right..... we are long overdue to visit the war museum wearing coveralls so we can crawl under a trcuk or two...

Phil can you confirm that your cab 12 has NO E brake cables on the rear axles and your E brake is on the 2 speed transfer case...

Thanks for all your help......

Bob

Bob Carriere · #15 23-01-08, 04:11

Grant

You may be right that I will have to install the linkage to make the two speed T case lever fully operational including the front axle in/out function and remove the original front axle engage lever which will be in the way of the winch brake...... we can fabricate a cover for the resulting hole.....or.....

..... install a seperate E brake handle for the T case brake since I am using the original E brake to run the cable rear axle set up...

....... need a beer to sort that one out....

Could also use the winch cable at the back with a boat anchor as a 3rd... or is it thurd...... E brake....!!

BoooooooB

Mike Timoshyk · #16 23-01-08, 05:32

Am I ever glad I don't have a winch to contend with. I had enough trouble figuring out where the emergency brake lever was mounted.

mike

Phil Waterman · #17 23-01-08, 16:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Just got in from 2 hours of snow duties......

.........
Phil is there a way to do a plan of the winch bracket hole location using the battery cable hole and the 3 way valve hole as reference......even the battery box rear holes.....
Almost like a tracing from you old floor plate...... so I could overlay and mark mine.........

Bob

Yes Bob I have the full size template, I've tried scanning it and for some reason every time I do it does not come out dimensionally stable so I have scanned it with a horizontal and vertical ruler print the picture out cut of the rulers and use them to get the dimensions you need. Picture posted below but I’ve also PM a full sized copy directly to you. If that fails I'll take the full size template down to the copy shop and have them copy that section on a blue print copier and mail it to you.

I’m still having trouble posting to my web site the server that holds it crashed hard about a week ago and I can not seem to add or change anything now, or even log on to the server directly so I will have to call them and get contact reestablished.

I wanted to posted the pictures because of the limited image size on MLU sometimes makes it hard to check detail.

Bob Carriere · #18 24-01-08, 00:56

....Geez I didn't know Furd had He-merged-ansty brakes...... never would have though for a minute they ever went fast enough to get into an emergency.........

Phil...... Yes I opened the separate email you sent me so I can play with my ACDsee software......

It will be easy with the ruler in the margin to reproduce even manually on large flip chart paper and transpose the dimensions on my floor plate.

Grant will make sure I get it right before he allows me to drill holes all over the floor plate.

Thanks guys.

Boob

Mike Timoshyk · #19 24-01-08, 18:35

From my progress ...4 forward, then 3 back...it seems that I won't need any brakes for quite some time

mike

Bob Carriere · #20 25-01-08, 03:43

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What did you scr** up now???

...or did you run out of red wine!!!!

Anything we can do??

BooB

Bob Carriere · #21 28-01-08, 03:51

Here are some pictures of the original parts cleaned and painted re-insatlled on th eold floor plte to understand the layout and figure out how to cut the new floor plate.....

This will be a succession of pictures for each posting....

First the over all parts.... including the under the floor bell crank which has a GM parts number cast in the body. Also has a grease nipple...... not a clue what it originally came from....

You will noticed I installed a brand new clevis...... also this is a cleaned rod by far straighter than the old original that was all bent to hell...... I soon came to realize that the old one had been bent to shortened the rod..... the new clean rod pictured is now too long and will need shortening....

Bob Carriere · #22 28-01-08, 03:54

For ease of working and to be able to fully grasp the installation through the floor plate I hung the old floor plate from the ceiling hoist....

Only one bolt is common to the upper and lower bracket....

Bob Carriere · #23 28-01-08, 03:55

... taken from underneath.... a very strudy bellcrank......

Bob Carriere · #24 28-01-08, 04:00

...typical winch brake as found in CGT..... at rest it is folded flat parallel to the floor..... should lock in at about 45 degree...

....you will notice that the hole for the rod was torched and too small compared to Phil diagram..... so small that the clevis would not pass through and the rod had to be taken apart...

Bob Carriere · #25 28-01-08, 04:11

... for some reason not yet understood.... whcih may relate to clearance issue the bottom bracket was originally installed at a small angle off the the line of the top bracket.... we reistalled the cleaned bracket in the original outline left in the underside of the floor plate.....

I ran out of time for anymore putzing around and called it quit.... but only for this weekend....

Next week we will try to clamp down the brackets on the new floor..... check for clearance before we start drilling holes.....

any comments Phil....?

Bob

Phil Waterman · #26 28-01-08, 16:40

Hi Bob

I think you are on the right track to start checking all the clearances before you start drilling holes. I don’t understand the angle of the bell crank mine appears to be straight for and aft. I think I would start by putting all the other linkages in place to be sure of the clearances. I’d also put the brake rod that comes forward from the winch brake in place to check the logic of the bell crank. Will the winch brake work correctly if pulled at angle implied by the photo.

Your bell crank is completely different from mine. Almost wonder if it was not originally intended to be mounted without the piece of U cannel with the vertical part hooked up behind the cab.

Did you get the photos of my orginal floor plate with the ruler laying on it?

Bob Carriere · #27 29-01-08, 01:20

Yes I did get the photos with the ruler.....came in in nice and clear and makes for scaling up ideal......

I see no reason for the bell crank to be offs et as it is.... only actual mock up on the actual floor plate will clear this up..... I may use flexible coupling joints instead of the rigid clevis if necessary.

Stay tuned.......

Have you seen that large contraption designed by a frustrated Belgium CMP collector to un-rim CMP tires..... wonder if I can't adapt something for my 20 ton hydaulic press.....

Next time I go tomy tractor tire shop I will take pictures of the air powered bead breaker that is just about 10 inches square and works wonders......

Bob