One of Ours?

[rob love]

I was looking at the photo of a APC re-captured by government troops in Konduga. It sure looks like one of our old Grizzlys, or is it merely a Mowag from another source?

Here is a link to the story: http://www.osundefender.org/?p=187125

[Yeo.NT]

I found a similar article but with what appears to be a Husky towing a artillery piece. http://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2014/...le-at-konduga/

[Robin Craig]

Rob,

I had thought that all of the Canadian vehicles had lost their swim gear.

If you follow this link there is a better side view that leads me to think it is a Mowag and not ex Canadian vehicle, what say you?

http://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2011/...-plant-bauchi/

R

[Robin Craig]

This one looks distinctly ex Canadian.

There is an amazing number of different vehicle types in use by Nigeria.

I have seen Ex Russian vehicles (cant name many of them) and Otokar and Panhard and Saxon and on it goes.

Maybe an expedition in 5 years and we can recover some tasty kit

R

[Robin Craig]

One does have to be very careful on what you find on the Internet as there are a lot of mistakes.

This image was allegedly and Alvis Spartan but it isnt. It is actually a Samson.

R

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Rob,

I had thought that all of the Canadian vehicles had lost their swim gear.

If you follow this link there is a better side view that leads me to think it is a Mowag and not ex Canadian vehicle, what say you?

http://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2011/...-plant-bauchi/

R

Not all vehicles had been through refurb I suspect. With defense dollars always tight on projects like refurb of older equipment, it may have been that the project only refurbed what was needed. I have seen the odd AVGP floating around that had nothing improved on them.

The one I showed does not have the trim vane cylinder anymore, and the photo is too blurry to see if the vane is there or not. It also have different mirrors and headlamps, but this may happen when some of these countries decide to modify and use a more local source of parts rather than ordering expensive OEM components.

I note it has the first style of tire. Ours went through a series of upgrades over the years. I was talking to some of my guys after I got out, and they mentioned they had a fleet of them for about a month, just got them into useable shape, when the word came out that they were leaving as foreign aid. I also note it has the studs for the North American sized license plate on the front. Not sure if these were standard on European production hulls.

The photo you link to in post #3 Robin shows that they modified the headlights over to the M-series headlamp pots like on a M35 deuce and a half. As well, they have added the standard M-series blackout markers on top of the headlamps. These assemblies would be a lot cheaper to install and maintain over the Hella lamps that came stock on them. At the same time, they are by no means pretty, and actually looks a little hillbilly-ish.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Whatever happened to the 100 or so Grizzly AVGPs that were loaned (given?) to...where...Namibia?

Perhaps the Canadian government doesn't want them back due to the possibility of residual ebola contamination.

[rob love]

From Wikopedia comes this history of the "loaned" vehicles. Apparently part of the reason for the term "loan" was to get around the US ITAR restrictions.

In June 2005, the Canadian government announced plans to loan 105 AVGPs (100 Grizzlys and 5 Huskys) to African peacekeepers in the Darfur region of Sudan.[12][13] The AVGP was considered sufficiently modern to be useful in this low-intensity conflict. Canada planned to arrange for civilian contractors to maintain these vehicles. As the vehicles contained some U.S.-manufactured or licensed parts, U.S. permission would be required to loan the vehicles. Initially, the vehicles were to be shipped without their Cadillac-Gage turrets. The vehicles arrived in Senegal in the late summer of 2005.[14][15]
The Sudanese government required various kinds of assurances before they would allow peacekeepers to use the vehicles in Sudan. On November 18, 2005 the vehicles started arriving in Sudan, in white livery, with their turrets.[16] The loan of vehicles for peace-keeping service in Sudan was originally for one year.[14][15]
However, the loan was extended, and transferred from the African Union to the United Nations. According to Amnesty International the soldiers who used the loaned vehicles served in Sudan for too short a term to be properly trained, and become experienced. One of the vehicles was destroyed by a rocket-propelled grenade.[14] A second vehicle was damaged when it rammed a more heavily armed, but unarmored Technical vehicle.
Uruguay

In 2008, the Uruguayan Army bought 44 surplus Cougars from the Canadian Army.[17][18] They were rebuilt without the turret by the Chilean MOWAG-Piranha builder FAMAE, as they will act as armoured personnel carriers for the UN deployment in the Republic of Congo (MONUC), and domestically.
In 2009 Uruguay bought 98 Grizzlys and 5 Huskys that were on loan with the AMIS/UNAMID mission in Darfu

[Frank v R]

speaking of "LOAN" did the US get any paperwork for the vehicles now operated by those OTHER people , ITAR at work, I was sure that's why there was ITAR,

[45jim]

The only parts of the AVGP fleet that fall under ITAR control are the US sourced Grizzly turrets. The remainder of the fleet have no US controlled items. Canada could have sent a request to the US State Department to have the items transferred to the UN, if approved then its no longer Canada's problem as the UN would be responsible. The US could also release all interest in those items and thereby allow Canada to do what it wished with them.

Its just easier to scrap them like the M113, Hercules and other not very valuable US sourced product. Too much hassle for little return.

[rob love]

Not just hassle, but very few customers are lined up for the older stuff. In the meantime, it costs something to store it and keep it in preservation, all the while the equipment just keeps getting older and in a poorer state.

We had our M113s, C1 howitzers and AVGPs up for sale for quite some time through a re-marketer. Not many takers in the end.

Customers can be quite picky, even when it comes to freebies. Wikopedia reports that the recipients of the AVGPs were not happy with their maintainability. Even in Afghanistan, the Afghan military returned our 2500 (IIRC) "foreign aid" C7 rifles.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Customers can be quite picky, even when it comes to freebies. Wikopedia reports that the recipients of the AVGPs were not happy with their maintainability. Even in Afghanistan, the Afghan military returned our 2500 (IIRC) "foreign aid" C7 rifles.

Add to that the Afghan's refusal to take our leftover Iltis' without huge support concessions on our part. The west would have been better serving the ANA by outfitting them in newer AKM's and Hilux Pickups, rather than M16s and Ford Rangers.

You really hit the salient point here Rob. Especially when it comes the Armoured Vehicles. I think the reason ex-Soviet eqpt is so popular in these developing countries is due to its ability to be maintained on a shoe string by people with little to no training.

[rob love]

Part of it may be our fault too. We say we are going to contribute X milliion dollars, then try and give them our older crap at full book value to account for the donation.

Would anyone here pay $26,000 (original book value) for a slightly worn out Iltis?

[chris vickery]

On that note Rob, why would anyone pay $500 for one either???

[Robin Craig]

I think the remarketing people have perhaps dropped the ball when you consider how much the Latvians are paying for CVR(T)s that have just come out of service.

I suggest sending someone to Withams for a lesson in MV sales tactics, they seem to do well enough out of the game.

Sad to see it takes a member of this forum to know what is and isnt ITAR regulated and not the Guberment du Kanadeer, sad.

R