#31
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A real pro.......
..... I envy your skill set......
...and are you sure that's not Mayonaise you used on the shifter!!!! Bob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#32
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Running 235 on test stand
Quote:
Hi Walde I'm running in a 235 prior to putting it in my `41 Pattern 12 C60L, this is a complete rebuild including boring the cylinders, hardened valves whole new valve train, turned crank, new rods and pistons. PS my shop is not as clean as yours, in fact just after these videos were taken the oil line T on the side going to the pressure gage and oil filter broke off. Fortunately I was standing at the control panel when this black line appeared between the side of the engine and the wall of the shop. Solid stream of oil 3 quarts of oil out before I could hit the kill switch. My shop ended up with one wall covered in oil along with one work bench and my stock of steel sheets. Working on engines when they are mounted in a CMP is such a bear that I really like to run the engines in on the test stand to get as many of the bugs out as possible. Once had to pull an engine back out of a CMP with only 20 minutes of road time because a rear main seal leaked. Look at the bottom of the page for 235 Video link http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ineTesting.htm
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#33
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Phil, your amazing
Phil
Thanks, for the feedback, fantastic info sharing on your site. I bench tested the 235 in the chassis as it still has no body on it, as close as I can get to your set up. No major issues except the flimsy rocker cover gaskets take a bit of tweaking to seal properly and a few configuration modifications. Water pump relocation mod and the throttle linkage. Bought an adapter plate from ebay which took care of the water pump issue. Just a few pics of the engine. Bores were pretty good, ridge removal and honed for crosshatch. I painted the engine a very light grey although its looks almost white, it will probably age into grey colour like me. Then I installed the 235 it in the chassis for a test run. The original rocker cover was re-used by swapping the adapter studs to give it a more original appearance. 6 volt starter swapped over easily too. The only thing that didn't work was the oil pan so I had to use the original 235 pan. My original 216 is still in bits, not sure what to do with it, scrap or partially assemble it for a display at one of our shows hanging of a tow truck? |
#34
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If it is the original 216 hold on to it.
Hi Walde
If you 216 is the original or even if it has the original accessories hold on to it or offer the bits up to us other CMPers as parts. If you have the original deep sump oil pan hold I'd be interested as some of the other will be as well. Right now I'm looking at how to graft the deep sump onto a 235 or 261 pan and extend the pickup tube down. Interested to hear that the 235/261 water pump adapter works well will be interested to here from some of the rest of our group that have these on trucks on the road how the actual cooling is. I have some concerns about the flow and distribution because the 261 are particularly prone to steam pockets. Cheers Phil
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#35
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Don't scare me with that H20 pump stuff....
HI Phil
I was adamant that I would not remove my original in blcok 261 water pump for a reduced size external 216 pump.....come hell or high water. Well watewr rose too hight and I gave in........ Grant and I worked two full days trying to make the fan blade fit.... can't remember how many model we tried.... different deep shalow pulleys.... HELL you cannot fit a 261 original water pump and the original trottle in a CMP without some big shoe horn. Even with the adapter plate it took some trick to fit the linkage for the gas to go underneath the water elbow to the block. I am not sure yet if it will be sufficient to keep everything cool enough but if a problem arises I would be more tempted to increase the engine oil capacity and use an oil cooler than rip the tight fitting cab 11 engine bay area apart. I will be running two full size PH 8 spin on filters mounted inside the frame underneath the passenger side...... Tell us how did you manage the linkage and water pump in your cab 12..... you got a 235 in there correct... same as a 261 or did you use an early 235 with the old pump.... Grant will be facing the same issue with his 261 cab 13 arrangement.
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#36
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Just starting on the throttle for the 235 and 261
Hi Bob
Just started working on the throttle linkage for the 235 and Pattern 12. I originally put a 1953 216 in the Pattern 12 and the water pump and thermostat housing were enough different that the original throttle cross over shaft would not fit period. I fabricated a totally new cross over shaft assembly. The 235 is still running in on the test stand, I’m addressing several little issues. I’ve got 10+ hours on the clock now on this engine and just as with the one other rope rear main seal engines after running for some real time it has started to weep just a little. Just enough that with a clean piece of paper on the drip pan on the test stand I can see a fine line of oil drops after the engine has run for an hour. So I’ve got to do some real checking to see what is causing the leak, though they ground the crank and fitted all new bearings during the rebuild machine work, I forgot to tell them to grind the rear main seal surface. If that is the cause then the fix is simple speed-sleeve over the seal area. That was the fix on the 1953 216 and it has worked well. What is strange is that there is more oil on the left side of the bell housing than on the right, this might mean two things that I can think of one that the oil passage plug on that side is leaking or that the oil is leaking bye on only one side of the rear main, I can not remember if I shimmed the rear main. If the rear main surface is smooth and clean then I’ll just replace the rope and be extra careful of fitting of the seal. I really don’t think the replacement gasket is as good as the original. I’m going to replace the exhaust valve rotators to see if I can get rid of a click. Did a compression test on the 235 this afternoon with the engine fully warmed up about 190 degrees all of the cylinders are right at 130 psi +/- 2. I’ve got to clean the radiator on my test stand because it just can not get rid of the heat with the engine at 1500 rpm it comes up to 190 even with auxiliary cooling on the heater connections, I have to heater cores with a blower hooked up. I think my problem is that my main radiator fan just is not moving enough air. I’m getting a 15 degree drop across the main radiator and I’m getting a 20 degree across the heater cores. The 235 is running 180 thermostat. I want to do these engine swap once each truck then I just want to drive the trucks for 30 years without touching the engines. The reason I pick 30 years is that is how long I’ve driven my HUP without ever tearing the engine down. The 216 engine in the HUP has never been apart in all the time I’ve owned it. Engine leaks oil but it runs so nice that I hate to take it apart. The 261 engine is just about complete, (missing of all things the oil drain plug) I’m going to run it in on the test stand with the correct 261 water pump. Then I’ll move over to the adapter type, really wish I had a flow meter that would tell us do they move the same amount of water. Think your idea of adding an oil cooler may be a really good idea. The guys I know who have re-engine there US military stuff with 261 have cheated and used 12 volt electric radiator fans and not bothered with all the conversion of the water pump. I’ve got to go take some pictures of how they did it.
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#37
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Flow volume.....
Hi Phil
Yes it would be nice to compare the flow rate of the 261 original pump against the adapter 216...... but..... One has to remember the air flow charateristics of the cab 13 and even worst the cab 11/12. At least a cab 13 can have a fan shroud which will greatly improve the air flow..... forget that idea with a cab 11/12. According to by truck there is NO way you can fit a 261 engine pump in a cab11/12 without moving the engine back i nto the frame.... and then the fan is not centered on the rad....... Any one can cheat with a wired in 12 volt fan mounted on the radiator...but then you would loose all the original whine of the fan when the engine is running. I remember running a M37 without a fan belt so we could listen to and adjust the valves....... 90% of the engine noise went away when the fan was not running...... Chev 6 cyl. like the Dodge flat head six were not usually known for running hot... I have driven M37 with no rad cap...... after running a branch right through the rad....... it never boiled over....... on the other hand a V8 Ford would boil over in Winter. If we have an overheating problem with the 261.... which I don't think we will with a good recored rad..... a deeper oil sump.... extra spin on filters and as a last resort and engine oil cooler should take care of it..... short of over stressing the engine with a heavy load and trailer at low road speed in Summer..... the 261 should do us proud..... only time will tell!!!! speaking of breaking in the engine..... are you running diesel engine oil as per the news article...??? what weight..?? Now if only the 261 heat could be used to melt the darn snow!!!!!! Boob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#38
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Water pump info.
Gents!
I rebuilt my 235 a couple years ago so I don't know if there are cooling issues yet, but here is some info I had when I installed the adapter plate, I don't remember where I got it from , but assume from the supplier of the adapter plate. Quote:
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#39
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Instructions from the adapter maker...
Hi Walde.
I first tried shortening the shaft on a good 261 pump and used a shallow chromed pulley from a SB Chevy..... had to grind the body of the pump to get more clearance as the pulley was rubbing on the outlet casting. The all the fans I had.....4 blades, 5 blades and 6 blades were not fitting properly and would hit the lower pulley on the crank........or the big GM I had was hitting on the lower outlet of the rad because the fan sits so low...... besides even with the fan blade removed I still did not have sufficient rad clearance. The other issue is that you have to discard the large elbow outlet that fits to the head of the 261....... mine was the larger model and it prevented the installation of the throttle linkage..... I reverted back to a 216 elbow from an old cab 13...... it has a special flat spot on the bottom of the elbow that is needed to fit the throttle rod behind the pump pulley..... Reluctantly I went with the adapter and all fits well so far...... I will need to run it wirth the full engine enclosure before I know for sure if it will run hot or not!!!!! First picture of my 261 with the original pump and 1959 GM fan......looked nice but was useless..... not enough clearance for the rad and the fan blade hit the lower outlet of the rad....
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#40
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Finished product.....
....after hours of fiddling with the help of Grant we finally got it to fit....
The fan blade came from a 216.....cab 13 water truck..... Once the pump was changed I had to change the harmonic balancer ot match the pulley size and the alternator...... belt came from a tractor dealer in 7/8 size for an Allis Chalmers....... Bob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#41
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Speed of sound and fans
Hi Bob
I'm really going to take a look at a way of confirming flow rates, there are a couple of things that I'm curious about 216 vs 235/261 pumps and the effect of the flex type radiator hose vs the smooth or formed hoses. We used use some relatively cheap flow meters on some of the big mechanical projects I did in my consulting days. Next step is to bring the original 216 engine down from the loft of the barn so that I really can start comparing dimensions to figure out how this really should work. Does your Pat 11 have the mini shroud meant to control the sonic boom at the tip of the fan blades? Just kidding, at max RPM the tips of the blades are only moving at Mach .2126 only sounds like they are breaking the sound barrier. But does your truck have the shroud pictured below?
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#42
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speaking of breaking in the engine..... are you running diesel engine oil as per the
Hi Bob
I've gone with 30W detergent oil though did add a two quarts of 20W when the oil line T broke off. I went over to running synthetic 2 cycle oil mixed with the gas when breaking in an engine a few years ago, something like the 50 to 1 ratio to start and then less as things go along. I also lube the engine parts like crazy with the gooey assembly oil. Then before fire an engine I put the block heater on it bring it up to 120F prime the oil system up to full pressure with the drill driving the oil pump. Then I turn the engine over by hand or with the starter with the drill driving the oil pump. Let it sit then do it again the next day before trying to start the engine.
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#43
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Engine pre-lube is good
Phil
Been away playing in the snow in the Caribou, none in Vancouver. Lots of high tech talk on the old 1929 designed stove bolt. Good stuff gentlemen. I used to rebuild Detroit's and just before I dyno'd the engines it was standard practice to pre-lube freshly rebuilt engines mostly to ensure valve trains were adequately lubricated. It takes a minute or 2 for oil to reach the valve train, if couldn't do this in the field I used the the starter with just a non-firing to spin over for a minute. Also just pouring a quart of oil along the top of the head with the valve cover off. You tend to get a bit of splash but its a good idea to observe how things are moving. I have found even the best mechanics find issues with things breaking at start up, like keepers popping out of valve stems, rockers breaking and things like that. Also at first fire up in the initial run just to observe oil pressure beginning to ooze out of the the rocker shafts. After oil pressure checks and a final check for coolant air pocket traps in the head the the cover goes back on for a warm up run, usually babied until 110F then mid-speed until the thermostat cycles, this is where leaks start to show up. Caution is to stay away from hot water blasts from vents and rad overflows, been caught a few times. Most of the time its a hose tightening, others times its a revelation in jobber rebuild quality like leaking water pump seals. So it is normal to find issues (sometimes). With the engine cooling down I spray it down a little with thinners to wash the external oil spills off. Just make note of the fumes and enclosed spaces near ignition sources. Than tested it in chassis, with no major issues, just a leaky radiator, since replaced with a good one. I painted the engine light grey, but it looks too white for my liking. Then I made a temporary driving station and drove the CGT around to my back yard, tarped it and proceeded to the next project; making a couple of CGT fuel tanks. Walde |
#44
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Wonderful pictures.....
Hi Walde
You should take a look at the .....%$#@@%$... hate to say the word...."New Ford Grey" engine color..... nice mid range grey with a touch of blue tint...... looks very much like some of the old grey chev blocks..... at least to my eyes anyways....... even available at Cdn Tired!!!! Bob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#45
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Mil Spec Rebuilt Engine Colour
There may have been different specs during WWII but all my references and many RCEME oldtimers have told me that the DND spec for painting rebuilt engines (usually done by contractors but sometimes inhouse) is "light" or "industrial" grey. Sure makes spotting leaks easier!
Mike
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Mike Calnan Ubique! ("Everywhere", the sole Battle Honour of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery) www.calnan.com/swords |
#46
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Correct.....
.... and they used the same light grey on Chev or Dodge engines.....
Although I have seen complete rebuilt GM 6 cyl. engines ..."drop ins" for CCKW in the plywood crate that were OD green..... complete from bell housing, clutch, carb, and water pump... starter and gen......no fans.... probably all made into Toyota bumpers by now.... My M43 had a rebuilt 251 engine with 900 miles on it..... painted a shinny dark Bell Canada green like late 80 civvy/ military trucks.....Marcel had a primer red in his M43 with less than 500 miles... both trucks came from Petawawa in 73 or 74.... they had special breakin instructions glued to the inside driver's windshield.... If you look at paint samples for the 1940 factory medium grey with a blueish tint..... it is very close to the new Ford grey currently available at Cdn Tire. Mike.... are you still trying to dig yourself out...??? Boob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#47
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During the war when the motors were rebuilt they came out with a coat of khaki but the tappet cover and accessories stayed the original grey and black. Two of my Chev motors are like this.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
#48
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Colours
Hi gents
I think I will go with grey, same as the original 216 that I took out, the RECE tag is still on it rebuilt in Montreal in 1957. So when the weather is warmer I'll paint the engine crappi tire grey. Also included are couple shots of the CGT winch set up.IT was in very good shape just a clean up and re-seal job. |
#49
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Winch
Hi Walde
Comment on the winch, you may want to consider attaching the cable to the drum before you put the drum in the truck. Very tight working space to try and bend the 5/8ths cable end and get the clamp on if it is inside of the frame rail. If you don't want to mount the cable be sure to check the bolts threads, drum threads and fit of the clamp plate before installing the drum. Even with the body off once the drum is in place it is not easy to work on. I had problems because I discovered, after the body was on the truck, that one of the thread holes on the drum was stripped or warn from being loose so that it is hard to get the bolts tight.
__________________
Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#50
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CGT Update
Hi guys
Had a very busy summer again, but now back into building my gun tractor. Anybody have a source for the front window glass to frame seals, the perimeter one; I have, my glass place is looking for a seal with the following dimensions, 5/16"X5/16"X5/16" in a "U" shape in 1/16" thickness. Managed to get the front body back on the chassis and piece together all the little brackets and bits. A pic on the progress too! Walde Last edited by Walde Libera; 31-10-08 at 06:12. |
#51
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Window seals n stuff
I got this link from Dan Caldwell. It is a company in Kitchner-waterloo. If the link works it will allow you to view their cataloge.
http://www.spaenaur.com/view_pdf.asp?Page=K7 Hope this is of some assistance. nice truck btw. cheers from Windsor Ontario Mike Timoshyk |
#52
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window seal
Mike
Yes there might be a size that may work, I'll fax this over to Speedy to see if it will work. Item L36, Thanks for your help, I took some pic's at night so they are a little "grainy". Updated my pics, got the right seal from Spanaer, they ship quick, had it in 3 days. The only deal was you had to buy 50 feet(15M). Reasonable cost. So have some spare stock. Front glass is done, just to install. Completed my wiring finally, added turn signals and a couple 12 volt accessory power plugs for cell phone chargers etc. This right hand drive CGT will be a driver so signals will be an absolute must, a couple amber LED's signal for the front, they are small yet very bright. Rears are going to be stock, but will have 2 larger red LED's for travel which can be quickly removed with quick connectors. Visually you will only see the front 2. The dash was a combination of an NOS cab 13 and a home made turn signal harness for the chassis.I used a 7 wire Grote turn switch with 40's look which gave me 4 way hazard functions too. I still managed to incorporate all the original CGT dash function switches too so in the end I didn't have to compromise any of the original set up. The power supply at dash expanded to 5 circuit breakers which required me to make up a board in order to segregate some of the circuits as compared to the original schematic. Next week the nose will go on the cab for the last time. Getting close to road test time, just in time for Xmas! Walde Walde Last edited by Walde Libera; 16-11-08 at 19:54. |
#53
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Speedo cable needed for Chev cab 13 CGT
Does anyone have a source for the the internal cable, my external conduit is good but just needs the inside one, @1/4" by 96". I managed to get the old core out in 2 pieces.
Or a good complete one from a wreck? Walde |
#54
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Turn Signals
"This right hand drive CGT will be a driver so signals will be an absolute must"
Turn Signals? We don't need no stinkin turn signals. I've used the swerve and scare method for the 13000 kms I've driven mine so far. It works well. Just swerve a little over to the lane you want to go too, bring it back the other way but then go back around towards that lane. Even semi's will give you the room if you look like you are going to crash. Those other cars are supposed to have brakes and the drivers should be paying attention anyways. Coming to the Christmas party? |
#55
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Harry
I like you style.
__________________
macca C15 C15A |
#56
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style
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#57
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I got my signals crossed
Harry
I was only improving on the old wig wag signals, didn't think any one would get upset? I promise I won't use them when I'm convoying with you! PS Bruce and I are going to the Christmas party, an over-nighter too at CMEC. Just 2,wives are staying behind. |
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Harry
Bob...
You may not know Harry but he is 6 foot seventeen...in his sox and 350 pounds ..if he is an ounce...and that swerving around method he is talking about is with out his CMP... One of my fav Left Coast muckers... Should see the lad with a Bren gun....what a thing of beauty.. Not too many stupid enough to get too close to him... Where is the Christmas party..??
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk: |
#59
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Cab finally done
A couple pics, before and after. A couple things to do, winch cover and heater install.
Focussing on rear body got a real CGT bottom half to start with, a bit of a challenge..... Walde |
#60
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Another Update CGT rear body
Took lots of pics and measurements from a complete CGT body in Newtonville, Ontario from the Elliot brothers collection several years ago. I printed and plastered them on the garage wall for reference. Piece by piece slowly reverse engineered the whole body. Some of the tell tails were old welds that still remained in the original deck. This info was a confirmation I was headed in the right direction.
Walde |
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