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  #61  
Old 21-08-14, 00:20
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Gina,

"No where in the archive is an order to source stocks locally" Actually, not correct: earlier instructions (late 41/early 42) than the period you are talking about do provide latitude to source outside the Army supply chain due to Army's inability to provide paint to units in a timely manner.

Interesting discussion.

Remember, the patterns were not rigid, but provided as a guide only, so lots of variations resulted.

Mike
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  #62  
Old 21-08-14, 04:20
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Mike I haven't seen that one...I have only acessed the digitised material.

Can you clarify...would that be to paint uncamouflaged civilian vehicles and glossy Army vehicles?

Does it refer to disruptive ?? which I had thought was not introduced on vehicles until late 1942 early 1943.
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  #63  
Old 21-08-14, 05:38
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Hi Gina,

The earliest official MT disruptive pattern camouflage instructions (that I have a copy of) that were issued in Australia for AMF (as opposed to AIF headed for overseas theatres, which date much earlier) are dated 2 January 1942, but advance copies had already been distributed by late December 41. The instruction applied to all Army vehicles, regardless of origin or current paintwork. Similar instructions were issued by RAAF and RAN for MT camouflage. They are all based upon a collaboration between the Dept of Home Security's Technical Director of Camouflage (Prof Dakin), the three services, and State Camouflage Committees.

The early period (Dec 41 to mid-42) saw quite a panic to apply camouflage 'without delay' because of the fear of Japanese attack. It all seems a bit over the top in hindsight, but was real enough to those on the ground at the time: the Japanese juggernaught seemed unstoppable. Things had settled down a bit by the time your tank arrived and was cam painted.

Much of the camo information and correspondence at NAA has not been digitised as it was opened many years ago, long before Recordsearch came into being. If copies are asked for again (and paid for, no doubt) then a digitised copy will become accessible via the website.

Mike
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  #64  
Old 21-08-14, 06:24
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Ok then I will have a look next time I am in melbourne. Is that the MP 222/1 series ?? Or is there someplace else I should look ??
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  #65  
Old 21-08-14, 10:01
Tim Lovelock Tim Lovelock is offline
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Default Matching paint colour

Hi all, I'm not sure if I'm chiming in on a topic that has previously been covered. But I have something that might be of help in matching 'original' colours.
I wonder if anyone else has heard of a 'grey card'? It was traditionally used by photographers to perfectly match colours when developing their photographs.
If you haven't heard of one, basically it is grey and reflects a certain percentage of light, and is only sold in one shade of grey. So the photographer takes a photo which includes the grey card, in MPU setting a photo that shows a vehicle colour and grey card in the one picture. If you posted that pic on the forum someone like me on the other side of the planet, with a grey card, develops or prints the picture matching the grey card in the photo to my grey card, any other colours in the photo will therefore match the original colours.
As there always seems to be a question mark over vehicle colours, codes, batch numbers etc. if/ when a vehicle is pulled apart or rubbed back and an original colour found and a picture taken with a grey card (in natural/sunlight) the colour could be matched perfectly by anyone.
I hope this all makes sense and perhaps a thread with images of true colours could be started, if the paint isn't available already commercially.
Cheers Tim
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  #66  
Old 21-08-14, 10:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
... I've had a gutful of chasing WWII paint specs and it's ridiculous that we have to reinvent the wheel every time we want to paint a vehicle. These are standard factory colours, just like any modern car colour, and there's no earthly reason why we can't simply ring up and order them. Imagine if panel beaters had to go through this paint matching rigmarole for every minor repair.

Attachment 67229
This is a problem for panel beaters for eon, but just because it is a factory colour doesn't mean that the new batch will match. Cars left in bright sunshine fade more quickly than cars keps in shade. It is why most good panel beaters will start to formula and will then adjust by eye.

However if you're painting a whole vehicle then the formula should be correct.

Can we start a locked sticky section where we can send current formula/brand (even if its a new match) to a moderator who'll post the specific formula. That way we could go direct to the post/thread and not have to wade through pages of discussion?
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  #67  
Old 21-08-14, 12:53
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Joining the dots from the bits and pieces I have found on the vehicle this is my current mud map .
The sand guards are purely speculative as they were not on the Tank when it was auctioned off after the war.
Attached Thumbnails
Stuart Camo template 03b.jpg  
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  #68  
Old 22-08-14, 12:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cecil View Post
earlier instructions (late 41/early 42) than the period you are talking about do provide latitude to source outside the Army supply chain due to Army's inability to provide paint to units in a timely manner.

Very interesting Mike, I wasn't aware paint outsourcing was ever permitted. However it can only have been in anticipation of potential shortage of the new colours introduced in the instruction, not Khaki Green / Light Stone, both of which had long since entered large volume supply in Australia. The instruction itself is predicated on ample supply of this colour combination, featuring in 5 of the 7 schemes specified, and ordered into new vehicle production. In other words no shortage of Light Stone disruptive was anticipated, and as we saw during the next seven months it was running in rivers through every production plant in Australia, being liberally splashed on every vehicle type imaginable! As you say, a little over the top in hindsight!

Three-Tone
1. Light Stone N. Light Brown P. Khaki Green J.
2. Light Green H. Khaki Green J. Black U.
3. Light Stone N. Light Green H. Khaki Green J.
4. Light Stone N. Khaki Green J. Dark Green M.
5. Light Stone N. Light Brown P. Basalt Red S.*
Two-Tone
6. Light Stone N. Khaki Green J.*
7. Light Brown P. Khaki Green J.*

The colour combination selected should approximate to the colours of the country in which it is expected the vehicle will operate.

-For Australian Coastal areas use Sets No. 2, 3, 4, or 6
-For Australian Central and Northern Areas use Set No.5 or 7
-Set No.1 will merge under almost any circumstances.
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  #69  
Old 22-08-14, 15:59
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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I take your point Tony ...and yet the vehicles of the 1st and 3rd armoured division were painted disruptive in the field.

Could this mean armor at least was issued in basic green and disruptive applied , as you say, to suit the locality ?
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  #70  
Old 22-08-14, 16:55
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Hi Tony,

Cannot agree with your assumptions re availability of LS & KG3, and I think the correspondence of the period supports that view.

Instructions are one thing: putting them into practice is a whole other cricket match.

Mike
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  #71  
Old 23-08-14, 06:34
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Very true Mike, I'd need to see the correspondence before staking my life on KG/LS availability at unit level. However if it was available in production, which appears to have been the case, then it "should" be available everywhere soon thereafter, notwithstanding Army red tape. Certainly I don't see how any commercial substitute could be had in sufficient quantity any sooner, particularly in remote areas. For example Darwin was already being evacuated of civilians when this instruction was issued, and fully evacuated after Feb '42 bombing.

Anecdotal evidence also indicates LS availability in the field, will dig up some pics shortly.
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  #72  
Old 23-08-14, 06:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina Vampire View Post
I take your point Tony ...and yet the vehicles of the 1st and 3rd armoured division were painted disruptive in the field.
Light Stone was discontinued in July '42 and should not appear on your tank Gina. Disruptive colour after that was Light Earth, but only until November '42 when Vehicle Dark Green / Vehicle Light Grey was introduced. This scheme is seen in the field as early as December '42 including vehicles on exercise in coastal NSW. In other words it "should" have been available when your tank received disruptive paintwork. However as Mike says, it's one thing to issue instructions, quite another thing to implement them.
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  #73  
Old 24-08-14, 02:54
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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It looks just like the Light Stone on your door Tony . Same Same with Pictures of the Grants from the 2/4th Dec 1942 on their way to Murgon. .

The photos I posted here are what is on it .
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  #74  
Old 25-08-14, 13:29
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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The Stuart...Khaki Green and Light Stone ...the FGT dark Green ... Amazingly the AWM has two sets...

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL...#display-image

Description

Set of seventeen (17) rectangular metal camouflage paint sample plates, each 156 mm x 84 mm. Each plate has a hole punched into the top centre and an aluminium filing pin passes through these to hold the set together. Colours are marked in black stencilling on the reverse as follows : P - light brown, J - khaki green, A - white, D - dark grey, S - basalt red, Q - Darwin stone, F - grey green, L - scrub green, C - salt grey, S - basalt red (gritty), N - light stone, K - foliage green, B - light slate grey, M - dark green, T - dark earth, H - light green, U - night black.

Summary

Range of camouflage colours tested and developed by the Camouflage Wing, Royal Australian Engineers and associated with the camouflage work undertaken by Australian official war artist Frank Hinder. The colours were developed by close observation of the environment in southern and northern Australia and New Guinea. Although adopted as the standard colours for Australian military camouflage, the developers discovered that the majority of colours ended up being almost identical to the range developed by the British. A note attached to a different set of the same colours states: "First issued December 1941; Amended February 1942 ; Revised January 1943".
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Australian War memorial REL-16500.JPG  

Last edited by Mrs Vampire; 25-08-14 at 13:37.
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  #75  
Old 25-08-14, 13:53
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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A bit different to British Standard 987C
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  #76  
Old 25-08-14, 17:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina Vampire View Post
It looks just like the Light Stone on your door Tony . Same Same with Pictures of the Grants from the 2/4th Dec 1942 on their way to Murgon.

Certainly I would agree concerning the Stuart paint Gina. Based on your photos I'm 99.9% certain it's identical to my FGT8 door. The door was factory painted during early-mid '42 whereas it appears your Light Stone was applied in the field circa February '43, but they're exactly the same paint IMO. Light Stone was superceded in July '42 so I'm not sure why it appears on your Stuart, but there are several possible explanations. The point is it's THERE and I agree it should be replicated. The pattern looks fine and will make for a fabulous looking Stuart, almost certainly as it appeared during Qld exercises.

However, when it comes to paintwork it's not possible to draw conclusions from vehicles in other units. For example, 2/4th Stuarts seen at Bribie Island several weeks earlier, which may or may not have received disruptive paint subsequently. Also I believe their Grants seen en route are Khaki Green / Light Earth, freshly painted in late '42 using post September '42 Khaki Green, which was considerably darker than previously, providing additional contrast. Bright sunshine makes Light Earth mimic Light Stone in B&W photos, esp. if freshly painted. I'll dig up some photos in due course to show the difference. Meanwhile here's the Pucka Vickers looking rather different in wartime.

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  #77  
Old 26-08-14, 01:34
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Thanks Tony I look forward to those Photos. I have that picture of the Stuarts on exercise and had a look at a copy down in canberra and couldn't say for certain if they had disruptive or not.

They look all green to me and other photos from the same time seem to confirm that. ...But why the Stuarts would miss out when the Grants did not is a mystery and why in all the photos of the grants heading north to Murgon there are no Stuarts is likewise a mystery.

This AWM shot of the 2/4 tanks entrained at Murgon on the way to the exercise doesn't help.

So where are we at?? The colours are standard but the painting is not??? That seems to be the case so far. Does this fit in with the order that gives latitude for colour selection according to location??
Attached Thumbnails
Stuarts entrained Gympie.jpg  

Last edited by Mrs Vampire; 27-08-14 at 23:27.
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  #78  
Old 26-08-14, 01:48
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Both 2/4 and 13th went to Bribie island.

The train had a derailment on the way this shot shows both the trucks and a Stuart on its side painted disruptive.

Its an AWM shot and says 2/4 but maybe its the 13th. The AWM caption says on the way from Murgon but the 13th war diary says the tanks were driven to Gympie because the rail line was considered to light for Tanks...

Maybe the 2/4 did entrain from Murgon and this it how the 13th new the line was too light . But if this photo is the 2/4 then it is evident at least some of the stuarts? were painted disruptive. The pattern on this one ( on the original photo enlarged) seems remarkably similar to mine.

Clearer than mud...but not much.
Attached Thumbnails
Train de railment Murgon.jpg   Train derailment murgon 02.jpg  

Last edited by Mrs Vampire; 26-08-14 at 23:59.
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  #79  
Old 26-08-14, 08:44
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Hi Gina,

A real interesting thread and it is of interest to me as I start thinking about finalising the disruptive paint for my scout car.

The paint tablets at the AWM which are listed; can you confirm that the khaki green is second from the left and light stone is sixth from the right? They don't appear to be listed in the exact order they appear in the picture.

I don’t have a lot over here to compare the khaki green or light stone with so I am keen to get it as close as possible through means like this.
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1941 Willys MBT Trailer
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1943 White M3A1AOP Scout Car
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  #80  
Old 26-08-14, 14:15
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You're right Darryl, the colours have been listed somewhat out of order by AWM. Also they've misspelled "slate grey" as "salt grey". I notice various inconsistencies exist in these tablets concerning the range of colours approved for use, owing to constant revision, however the colours of concern to us appear to be confirmed on the FGT8 door, with the tablets having been revised in respect of Khaki Green, which was darkened in late '42.

Standards Association of Australia. N.S.W. Camouflage Paints Committee. September 1942

11th. meeting of Committee, it was advised that the standard range of colours was to be amended as follows:-

1. Additions

Extra Dark Earth Ex T
Dark Grey (new colour) G
Warm Sand O

2. Modified

Khaki Green J To be darker.
Dark Green M Slightly darker.

3. Removed

Light Slate Grey B
Slate Grey C
Dark Grey D
Purple Grey E
Light Green H


Australian Emergency Standard No. (E)2K. 509-1943. January 1943

Revision of schedule first published in December 1941, and amended in February, 1942.

Six of the original colours have been omitted and three new colours added, while some of the original colours, notably Khaki Green, have been modified. These changes were based on twelve months experience in the use of the schedule in the field.

The standard colours for camouflaging paints shall have the letter designations and names given below:

Standard Designation Standard Name.
Letter.

A .. .. .. .. White
G .. .. .. .. Grey
H .. .. .. .. Light Green
J .. .. .. .. Khaki Green
L .. .. .. .. Scrub Green
M .. .. .. .. Dark Green
N .. .. .. .. Light Stone
O .. .. .. .. Warm Sand
P .. .. .. .. Light Brown
Q .. .. .. .. Darwin Stone
R .. .. .. .. Red
S .. .. .. .. Basalt Red
T .. .. .. .. Dark Earth
XT .. .. .. .. Extra Dark Earth
U .. .. .. .. Night Black
W .. .. .. .. Light Earth


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  #81  
Old 26-08-14, 19:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina Vampire View Post
Maybe the 2/4 did entrain from Murgon and this it how the 13th new the line was too light .

Yes I agree with that conclusion Gina. The series of 47 AWM photographs catalogued P01022 was donated by H. Jackson, presumably Hugh Jackson of 2/4th Armd Regt pictured below on the way to Murgon. It chronicles their epic drive through the bush from Wee Waa (Narrabri) to Murgon, initially attempted with tank transporters which became bogged, and the onward trip by rail to Caboolture, presumably to join the North Coast Line to Gympie. No doubt they got there eventually but the derailment would explain 13th Armd decision to drive direct to Gympie instead. It's an excellent photo essay and a fascinating insight into the difficulties of tank transport at the time.

Well done spotting camo on the overturned Stuart, it's good to have corroborating evidence of disruptive paintwork on Stuarts. Once again it's difficult to judge the colour, and comparison with the Cab 12 doesn't help because it's canvas.

Logically these 2/4th tanks would have received Light Earth disruptive, however this particular series of photos calls that into question, and certainly the Grant on the tank transporter appears to be Light Stone, freshly painted like the others it would seem. If so then perhaps it was a question of paint availability. This was a rather busy period for Armoured units, constantly on the move and preparing for possible deployment to NG, so there would have been limited opportunities to repaint vehicles, and they may have used whatever stocks were available at the particular location and time. Also the official change to Dark Green / Light Grey in November '42 would introduce further delay/disruption to supply. Not sure why Light Stone would be any more readily available, however it was certainly produced in far greater quantity than Light Earth, having been in use for a couple of years as opposed to three months, so perhaps there was residual stock in some of the Advanced Ordnance Depots. Ultimately it was a GOC decision, based on suitability for terrain, but it can't be assumed the currently approved colours were always readily available.

On the other hand the possibility exists that we are in fact seeing the currently approved scheme on these tanks, namely Dark Green / Light Grey. The vagaries of colour rendition in B&W processing make it difficult to rule out completely, and evidence of this scheme can be found as far away as Alice Springs in December '42.


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NSW OR QLD, C. 1942. NO. 1 TROOP, C SQUADRON, 2/4TH ARMOURED REGIMENT, PICTURED WITH A GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANK WHICH THEY WERE DRIVING FROM WEE WAA IN NSW TO MURGON IN QUEENSLAND. IDENTIFIED ARE, BACK ROW LEFT TO RIGHT: LIEUTENANT ALAN PROUSE; SERGEANT GIB STUPORT; UNKNOWN; UNKNOWN; GEORGE RICHARDSON; HUGH JACKSON; ALEC EVANS; ALAN ROBSON. FRONT ROW: JACK MCKAY, FRANK MORROW; JIM CHRISTOFF (BEHIND); DAVE WALLIS (FRONT); RON CLAXTON; REST UNKN0WN. (DONOR H. JACKSON)


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Name:	P01022.005  NARRABRI, NSW, 1942. Loading Grant M3 tanks for transport to Qld.  Owing to transpor.jpg
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NARRABRI, NSW, 1942. AUSTRALIAN GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANKS BEING LOADED ONTO TRANSPORTERS FOR TRANSPORT TO QUEENSLAND. AFTER CONSIDERABLE TROUBLE WITH THE TRANSPORTS BOGGING AFTER HEAVY RAINS, THE TANKS THEMSELVES WERE DRIVEN MUCH OF THE WAY TO MURGON. (DONOR H. JACKSON)
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Last edited by Tony Wheeler; 26-08-14 at 19:41.
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  #82  
Old 26-08-14, 23:51
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Tony that Grant Transporter photo sure looks a lot like my Stuart Green/Light stone pattern .

It is curious that the Stuarts never appear in these photos. A Sqn was Stuart so my guess is B and C were too heavy and A was not.

And there is a reverse shot of the colour plates Darryl but the writing is too small to read. I guess a visit and a look is in order.

Last edited by Mrs Vampire; 27-08-14 at 23:30.
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  #83  
Old 27-08-14, 23:20
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Tony

I attempted to rub back a spot as you suggested. I did not manage to get as clean a circle of colours as you have but your method gives me a better indication than my previous efforts.

so I have in order of layers.

Yellow etch primer
Grey primer
Factory applied British Dark Green
Australian applied 1942 Khaki green (J)
Light Stone (N)
Modern Australian Khaki ( Me)

The News for me is :
1 the etch primer same as aircraft etch so far as it looks.

2 That the Stuarts were not US lusterless Olive Drab on arrival in Australia they were British Dark Olive green .. Because they were a part of a US lend lease contract to the British and prepared to a British spec.
This makes the photos of the unshipping of the Stuarts more understandable. It also explains why My Stuart arrived in Australia with a British "T" number painted on it and not a US "W" number. It also explains why the weird shipping numbers and symbols do not gel with any information about US Units or shipping . I need to look to British information not American.
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DSCN2024b.jpg   029380.jpg  
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  #84  
Old 28-08-14, 15:48
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Nice work on the paint layers Gina, your photo displays the full paint history well, with Khaki Green identifiable as post September '42. Photos like this are an important part of vehicle provenance and widely underused by restorers IMO. It's possible to achieve more clarity but it requires many hours of fiddly rubbing work to isolate the colours completely. I find the only way this can be done is by using folded pointy corners of wet and dry to achieve the necessary precision, which is even more difficult with highly uneven paint coats like the Light Stone on your Stuart. I did a lot of that kind of delicate work on the front shell and it reminded me of archaeologists using tiny paintbrushes to reveal fossils!

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Such photos also provide important evidence of general practice at the time, like the US Lend Lease factors you identify Gina. As such they can challenge our assumptions and go a long way to explaining wartime photographs as you say. I wonder if the Stuarts seen below were rushed into service in British green. It's possible they're seen after rainfall but even so they look way too dark for pre '42 Khaki Green.

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In due course I'll resume work on the FGT door to expose the required colours for matching. Unfortunately I got a bit carried away last time and removed too much paintwork, however there's plenty left to work with I believe. Ideally each coat needs to be exposed individually to provide maximum area for colour matching, and sealed with clear satin for colour rendition. Colours worth matching on this panel are pre '42 Khaki Green, Light Stone, and subject to confirmation post '42 Khaki Green and Light Earth. As such it will be a lengthy exercise but it's the only way to replicate these colours with full confidence. Hopefully it will be of use to others and can lead to standard formulations being established, which if confirmed by reference to WWII paint chips would be fully authoritative. This work has been done for modellers but does not translate usefully to volume supply. Ideally we can reach a point where WWII paint can simply be ordered, with paint matching a thing of the past. Hopefully my own efforts will be a step in that direction, to which end I'd welcome any suggestions/advice concerning suitable paint types and suppliers. I gather the general preference is for enamel rather than acrylic. Protec is one name that springs to mind and may be ideal for this project, given their association with current military paint supply.

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  #85  
Old 29-08-14, 17:59
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These pics show 3rd Armd tanks in Khaki Green / Light Earth camo, including a Stuart it would seem. Note the difference in bright sunlight, very similar to 2/4th Grant in the bush. Official timeline for this scheme was 28 July to 14 November, with Khaki Green darkened in September.

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Name:	P01022.043  NSW OR QLD, 1942.  2-4TH ARMD REGT GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANKS EN ROUTE TO MURGON QLD FOR .jpg
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Old 29-08-14, 18:16
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Scout cars for Darryl's interest, which I believe are also in Khaki Green / Light Earth. Low contrast suggests pre '42 Khaki Green.

Is it my imagination or have they sprayed this with the spade in place?

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Last edited by Tony Wheeler; 30-08-14 at 14:03.
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  #87  
Old 29-08-14, 20:41
Big D Big D is offline
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Gina - a visit to the AWM is on my radar.

Tony - I think you are right about painting with the spade in place on that scout car. I have blown the photo up a bit and it certainly looks that way. So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

I don't see the light earth in the paint sample plates listed. Am I right in thinking the light earth doesn't appear in those paint samples because it was added in January 1943? Is/was there then a set of paint samples which have all these new colours?
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  #88  
Old 30-08-14, 09:25
Mrs Vampire Mrs Vampire is offline
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Tony

The photo is from NSW railways collection, tanks passing through Homebush ( the station is near me and those buildings and the pedestrian bridge still exist) the train is heading south.

Photo was taken 7/2/1944. By that time My stuart and the rest of the 13th tanks were in Bandiana or heading there for storage.

Homebush is near chullora and the tank workshops associated with the manufacture of the sentinels.

The Grants have the late camo scheme my guess is they are on the way to bandiana sans guns for long term storage. There are no unit signs so it could be either the 2/4 or the 13th tanks.
There is a photo earlier in this thread of a grant at bandiana taken about the 5th 1944 with the same scheme as those in your picture

If it is the 2/4 they would be tanks being returned to store as that regiment was reequipped with Matildas and joined the 4th armoured brigade and went on to serve in the Islands.

Photo evidence has the 4 armored Brig still equipped with grants and matildas in 1945 when they were disbanded at southport. So perhaps those on the train are the 13th

The 13th was disbanded completely on 19 Oct 1943 and its vehicles returned to stores.

The photo taken nearly a year after the 2/4 made the epic trip from Wee Waa to Murgon and then as a part of the 3rd down to Bribie island has them in Light stone and Khaki as my tank was painted at the time. In the seven months between the exercise around Bribie island and the time this photo was taken it appears the tanks were repainted.

1 grants in storage 5/44 2 and 3 Grants and matilda of the 2/4 being loaded at Southport for Bandiana after the disbandment of the 2/4 3Jan 1946
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Last edited by Mrs Vampire; 30-08-14 at 10:22.
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  #89  
Old 30-08-14, 14:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D View Post
So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

Actually I should have been less categoric on that point, I've amended the wording accordingly. As you say Darryl it's extremely difficult to pick Light Earth from Light Stone in B&W photos, especially in bright sunlight. Other factors include freshness of paint, distance from camera, and photography itself. For example, the same photo with different exposure and/or processing would lead me to conclude Light Stone.

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There needs to be something of known colour in the photo for comparison, and in close proximity to the vehicle. White lettering provides a useful point of reference, but the truth is we can only be 100% certain when both schemes appear in the same photo, as seen below.

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Other than photographic evidence we only have circumstantial evidence, principally the date of painting, which loosely followed the official instruction timeline:

Khaki Green / Light Stone 2/1/42 - 28/7/42
Khaki Green / Light Earth 28/7/42 - 14/11/42 (Khaki Green darkened circa September '42)
Dark Green / Light Grey 14/11/42 - 4/3/43
Three tone scheme 4/3/43 - 28/7/44 (yet to be sighted in photographs)

In practice however we need to consider various probabilities. Light Stone was a British colour intended for desert use and was applied in Australia to vehicles bound for the Middle East. As such its subsequent use as a disruptive colour for SWPA seems to have been largely a matter of expedience due to urgency. Presumably it was soon found too light for vegetated terrain and subsequent changes reflect efforts to darken the overall scheme whilst achieving the necessary contrast for disruptive effect. Logically therefore you'd expect Light Stone to be discontinued in production without delay, and certainly this appears to have been the case with CMP production, with vehicles emerging thereafter in Khaki Green only, including gun tractors it would seem. Evidence suggests Light Earth was introduced in production for armoured vehicles only, and where seen on softskins it has been applied in the field.

Based on these considerations the appropriate scheme for a White scout car would revolve around the delivery date. In other words, Light Stone would only be appropriate before July '42 delivery or thereabouts. It's also true that Light Stone was widely overpainted in the field, particularly on tactical vehicles, so it's entirely appropriate to use Light Earth when depicting early vehicles in the field after July '42. The FGT door seen above is an example of Light Stone being found unsuitable.

As you say Darryl the AWM colour set does not include Light Earth. This is one of the inconsistencies I referred to earlier concerning the range of approved colours, owing to constant revision. The caption mentions another set: A note attached to a different set of the same colours states: "First issued December 1941; Amended February 1942 ; Revised January 1943". It's possible this set may contain Light Earth, and a couple of sets exist in private hands as well. Hopefully the FGT door will provide a satisfactory example for matching. We certainly need this colour as it was widely used at the time, particularly on tactical vehicles, and once painted it remained there until camo became obsolete in July '44, and in operational areas until the end of the war.

I'll have a look through my saved images for scout car camo schemes.
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  #90  
Old 30-08-14, 14:58
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These pics show scout cars en route north from Alice Springs, and once again I believe we're seeing Light Earth disruptive freshly painted. I notice the ARN range is the same as the one seen on rail car in NSW.

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