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  #31  
Old 23-11-06, 16:17
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David, as I am still learning here, I am not enough of an expert to tell the slightest nuances from one another between the Willys and Ford versions. The pictures aren't clear enough for me to surmise as to the manuafacturer.

This being said, I believe that neither is a CDLV 505 contract, but US spec versions. My reasoning on this; both pictures show the jeeps with the left hand fender mounted B/O light and guard and do not appear to have the lift rings as issued on 505 contract jeeps.

The main difference from afar that one will note on 505 contracts is the absence of the fender B/O light as it is mounted in place of the LH headlight instead plus the addition of a bridge plate affixed over the RH headlight opening as well as the addition of the circular lifting rings.

As an interesting note, you have perhaps answered the very question I had.
You state a number, 8226 units built and delivered.
On CDLV 505 there were 3000 built with an additional 2000 built on CDLV 241/242 for a total of 5000 units.
A lttile simple math would show a difference of 3226 US spec units delivered to us, wouldn't it?
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #32  
Old 23-11-06, 16:28
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Default ford

toolholes in front bumper=Ford

As Chris pointed out earlier the canadian contracts were for willys jeeps and not ford so this one would not be delivered straight from the factory but via the american/british army perhaps?

resume:
+-5000 willys via canadian contract, straight from the factory
+-3000 ford/willys via american/british army?

correct me if i'm wrong

Wim
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Last edited by wim sikkelbein; 23-11-06 at 16:37.
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  #33  
Old 23-11-06, 17:35
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Default GPW?

I always thought that the Canadian Liverpool Jeep was a GPW....at the same time British-order GPWs were being assembled in the works.

Don't forget that this was up to end April '45....and assembly only finished in September and October 1945 depending on company, and even then there were still "saloon cars" that were on their way to Canadian order [must be C8A HUPs I think] that the Ministry of Supply said could be assembled in one or two depots that would contunue working for some time. In that respect we know that GM Limited in Bamber Bridge, near Preston, and Cleckheaton, Yorkshire, continued on until 1946. However I discount them as they were and had been for some years, refurbishing works. I suspect that LEP Transport would have been the last Chevrolet assemblers, with CMD in Slough the last Ford assemblers.

Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 23-11-06 at 18:16.
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  #34  
Old 23-11-06, 20:09
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I have since learned that there were in fact Contract Demands issued for further jeeps, but these contarct delivered to US spec.
These included:

CDLV 1696 4000 units
CDLV 1801 1000 units
CDLV1802 1000 units

Now as far as how many actually made it overseas is a mistery as some were destined to stay domestic with some being sent over to Europe. It is also possible that near wars end these contract may have not been totally fulfilled or possibly even cancelled.

Apparently jeeps under these C/D were stock US spec, both Ford and Willys, and did not carry the special nuances that previous 505 contract did. This would also pertain to the special data plates as jeeps under the contracts supposedly wore the standard US style plates.
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #35  
Old 28-11-06, 20:07
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Default Re: Re: Explanation

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here's a picture of Jeep reassembly "somewhere in England".
Here's another one, from CMH Online (follow link to view a large size scan):
Quote:
England.
Jeep Assembly Line from which a completely assembled jeep can be produced every three minutes. Assembly Depot 0-640, Tidworth, Wilts, England. (8 Sep 43)
Signal Corps Photo: ETO-HQ-43-6606 (Lt. Ray)

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  #36  
Old 28-11-06, 20:18
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Default MVA

That's apparently a MVA company in Hedge End (Tidworth) Depot in Wiltshire [Salisbury Plain]
Source:
http://www.army.mil/cmh/reference/No...TS/OD/OD13.htm

Quote:
In 1942 there had been two Ordnance branch depots, Tidworth in the Southern Base Section (SBS) and Rushden in the Eastern Base Section (EBS), and Ordnance sections in six general depots-Ashchurch, Taunton, and Hilsea in SBS and Barry, Moreton-on-Lugg, and Sudbury in the Western Base Section (WBS). In 1943, as labor and materials became available, branch depots were activated at Warminster for combat vehicles and at Castle Bromwich for tools, and Ordnance had obtained space at two more general depots, Coypool at the port of Plymouth and Wern near Liverpool. Five vehicle parks had been added to the six in existence in 1942. This amount of space had been planned for theater reserve stocks in BOLERO and was obviously inadequate for OVERLORD
The program for the advance shipment of T/BA and T/E matériel alone, which went into effect in July 1943, entailed a sizable expansion in storage space: for example, the preshipped equipment for one infantry division included 2,089 vehicles....

...Maj. William R. Francis, who went to Treforest and studied the British Austin Motor Works assembly operation. "Yank ingenuity," as he expressed it, did the rest. With the help of two capable assistants, M. Sgt. Leroy Bell, shop foreman, and Pvt. George Phillips III, a time and motion study expert, he got the assembly line in operation by 18 August. Production rose when three newly arrived depot companies and the 497th MVA Company made a second shift possible. In the first three months of operation Ashchurch assembled 5,000 trucks.

On a smaller scale, Ordnance that fall began assembling 21/2-ton trucks at Taunton and lighter cased vehicles, such as jeeps and water trailers, at Hedge End (Tidworth) and eight other depots and vehicle parks. Between May and the end of December 1943, Ordnance troops accounted for about 43 percent of the 60,70.3 general purpose vehicles assembled in England. But this kind of work began to slacken toward the end of 1943 because the cased vehicles of the most wanted types were not arriving in sufficient numbers.

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  #37  
Old 29-11-06, 12:38
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Quote:
Originally posted by chris vickery
Now, as far as paint goes, I know this is another point that has be debated over and over again.
In my opinion, and for purposes of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, I would tend to think that the Willys plant would have used the same paint as US spec jeeps and not have changed over to accomodate a few CDLV spec ones here and there.
My reasoning on this is simple; from what I have found out during my recent research, the CDLV 505 contract was carried out during 4 distinct times, April, July Aug and Sept of 1942 with a few built during each of these months as manufacturing schedule permitted. Commitment appears to have been biased, of course, to US requirements first.
Having said this, one would wonder why a plant would set up to change paint lines over to accommodate small runs for a day or two at a time. This would entail painting the bodies separately in Canada's choice of colour followed by a respray of the entire assembly to homogenize all the colours on the completed unit, as surely the drivetrain and other components as supplied would have been in the US choice of colour.
Secondly, on the jeep that I have aquired, it appears that my original paint as found beneath the data plates is indeed close to US 33070.
As is stands, my 505 is going to receive paint in the standard US colour of the period.
Chris, I fully support your restoration efforts, as you recognise the fact that you own a CDLV jeep and put effort and money into getting it right. But for the sake of history, I beg to differ with you on this issue.

If Canada placed an contract with Willys for jeeps to be built according to their specifications, they had to build them according to these specs. Otherwise they would not be accepted by the customer - period.

Of course, for reasons of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, the paint should be the same on all Jeeps ("any colour you want, as long as it is OD!"), but the same is true for the other typical CDLV specs. Why bother with those pesky details like lighting, axle lamp switch, lift rings on the front bumper? These are exacty the reasons why later during the war Canada did no longer bother and bought its jeeps "off the shelf".

But those CDLV spec jeeps were different from US spec ones. According to Brian's Military Jeeps (a recognised source), the Canadian MB's were not painted US olive drab, but the darker, browner 'Khaki No.3'. After aging, Khaki No.3 could actually look a lot close to OD, so it might be worthwile to further investigate if your jeep wasn't actually painted Khaki.

H.
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  #38  
Old 29-11-06, 16:35
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Thank you Hanno, certainly worth further investigation.

I recently aquired the original contract regarding the requirements of Willys as it pertained to the additional equipment and specifications set forth. All the forementioned items are included on the contract, it is quite detailed but nowhere does it specify paint colour????

One would tend to think that something like this would have been mentioned on the contract demand... hmmmm.
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #39  
Old 29-11-06, 16:54
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Quote:
Originally posted by chris vickery
I recently aquired the original contract regarding the requirements of Willys as it pertained to the additional equipment and specifications set forth. All the forementioned items are included on the contract, it is quite detailed but nowhere does it specify paint colour????

One would tend to think that something like this would have been mentioned on the contract demand... hmmmm.
Great news, Chris! This is exactly the sort of source material we are looking for. I agree, if the colour was to be different from the standard OD, this should be mentioned on the contract. If it is not listed there, surely the CDLV jeeps were painted OD.

Could you share the contents of the original contract with us? Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.

Thanks,
Hanno
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  #40  
Old 29-11-06, 20:16
Barry Hampton Barry Hampton is offline
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Default cdlv paint

My Jeep is 242 contract. Underneath brackets that have never been removed is the original light OD.
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  #41  
Old 29-11-06, 20:50
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Hanoo, it is funny you should mention obtaining snippets here and there. this seems to be what I have been finding as well, as there is no definative one stop place to find all the info.
It seems some fellows with info are not exactly forthcoming in sharing, that is they hoard it for their own personal pleasure (its mine all mine mentality)
At any rate, it would be good to put all the Canadian contract info in one place.
I will try and get all the details down on the forum as time permits and I come across whatever I have.
I do value the opinions of all in this discussion and surely arguements will crop up on specific points.
As far as the colour thing goes, it seems to me that even the experts disagree on what is right or wrong.
Going from the paint as it appears on parts of my 505 contract jeep, they certainly appear to my eye to be the same as US 33070 colour.
Even the US based guys can't agree on specific colours on their own jeeps so this is one of these quandries that may or may not ever be answered. As for my jeep, it will be painted in standard US colour as found.
Thoughts anyone?
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #42  
Old 15-12-06, 23:23
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"Headlamp guard (R), Willys part no. A-5448"

Pic courtesy of Dirk Leegwater who has these for sale.
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  #43  
Old 16-12-06, 01:56
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I don't think changing paint colour for a certain contract would be much of an issue for a manufacturer. We have seen how the commercial vehicles come down the line and are painted all different colours. It is not a big deal to change from khaki to OD or back again. I believe that if the Canadian contract was for a certain colour it would be done. Vehicles are scheduled days ahead so that the proper parts are in the right spot when the vehicle comes down the line. Just a thought.
Barry
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  #44  
Old 05-01-07, 18:03
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry Churcher
I don't think changing paint colour for a certain contract would be much of an issue for a manufacturer. We have seen how the commercial vehicles come down the line and are painted all different colours. It is not a big deal to change from khaki to OD or back again. I believe that if the Canadian contract was for a certain colour it would be done. Vehicles are scheduled days ahead so that the proper parts are in the right spot when the vehicle comes down the line. Just a thought.
Barry, I concur. It really boils down to finding original contract specifications.
Chris, could you share the contents of the original contract you have?

H.
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  #45  
Old 05-01-07, 18:09
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.
Let's keep this thread alive by adding some pictures. I hope the CDLV Jeep experts will feed us with their detailed knowledge.

Single headlight with brush guard, but I cannot see lifting rings on the front bumper - CDLV 505 contract Jeep?

H.

Quote:
A jeep ambulance of the Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps (R.C.A.M.C.) bringing in two wounded Canadian soldiers on the Moro River front south of San Leonardo di Ortona, Italy, 10 December 1943

Click image for larger version

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Credit: Lieut. Frederick G. Whitcombe / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-180097
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  #46  
Old 05-01-07, 21:59
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Another one with single headlight with brush guard - are those chains fitted to lifting rings on the front bumper?
Quote:
Canadian war correspondents in a jeep, Modica, Italy, 13 July 1943

(L-R): Peter Stursberg, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation; Ross Munro, Canadian Press; Captain Dave MacLellan, Public Relations Officer; Lieutenant Al Fraser, Canadian Army Film and Photo Unit.

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Credit: Capt. Frank Royal / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-204808
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  #47  
Old 06-01-07, 16:55
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Default cdlv 242 jeep

public archives of canada

Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942

PA-213504 MIKAN No.: 3599654

cdlv 242 with mickey mouse camouflage

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  #48  
Old 06-01-07, 17:13
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Default strange medic jeep

public archives of canada
Private F.J. Dunn resting on his ambulance jeep while evacuating casualties south of Bad Zwischenahn, Germany, 29 April 1945

PA-205395 MIKAN No.: 3586347

how about this one

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  #49  
Old 07-01-07, 19:31
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Quote:
Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942
Nice picture Win. However, I don't recognize the unit marking under the windshield driver side. The Three Rivers Regt was in the 1st Armoured Brigade (independent) and this markings is not the good one. Somebody has an answer?

Also, what is the signification of the inverse triangle with the "X" under the windshield? Is it possible to know what are the colors of this marking?
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  #50  
Old 07-01-07, 23:37
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After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?
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  #51  
Old 08-01-07, 00:29
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Default If I ever get a Jeep

Thanks, Hanno for posting the picture of the CBC Jeep it lead to another photo which if I ever got a Jeep would be the number I'd use. I've collected all the recording gear shown on the hood as this is the same stuff used in the CBC HUPs and BBC trucks.

The Canadian Archives have more CBC photos of equipment that are not yet available over the web.
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  #52  
Old 08-01-07, 11:44
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Post Re: photo - Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942

Quote:
Originally posted by M38CDNBill
Nice picture Win. However, I don't recognize the unit marking under the windshield driver side. The Three Rivers Regt was in the 1st Armoured Brigade (independent) and this markings is not the good one. Somebody has an answer?
The Arm of Service marking and the Brigade Formation sign that appear on the jeep in Wim's photo are correct for the time that the photo was taken (July 42).

Quote:
Originally posted by M38CDNBill
After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?
Yes, the Calgary Regiment and the Three Rivers Regiment were both in the same Brigade. Sometime after Dieppe, the Formation sign of the Brigade changed from that which appears in the photo to the one your probably thinking of (the image below). I'm not at home at the moment, so I have no access to my notes, but I'll post the effective date of the change in Formation sign once I'm home.

Cheers
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  #53  
Old 08-01-07, 15:51
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Quote:
Originally posted by M38CDNBill
After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.

Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?
The sign incorporates the "Ram" which was also used as a formation patch until shortly after Dieppe.
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  #54  
Old 08-01-07, 21:05
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Default 2 cents worth on paint

I have a Dodge wc55. It was painted in" Forest green" (Marine Corps colours) It was originally painted in "olive green",and I believe it to have been repainted in forest green before being issued to its Marine corp unit.
What I'm suggesting here is that, as big as the Marine Corp is, The factory didn't stop and clean out its paint gear and start again.
When you think about it, all the components come from different areas, to meet at assembly. they are already painted on arrival, and go together to form the complete vehicle. Any variation in colour is going to be an extra on the assembly line, just as my Dodge's Marine Corp's "forest green was.
To add weight to what i say, The Jeep bodies for both Ford and Willys from some time in 1943 were all contracted to the Budd company, the wheels were made by Kelsey, the axles by spicer, etc.
All component parts came together at the factory, In the same way as there was no single manufacturer for the M1 carbine (no one company made all the bits)
I would suggest (but dont know) Chris, that your Canadian contract Jeeps, were built as standard, and then taken to one side for the "superficial" "contractrual" requirements.
If I am correct on this, and if indeed your Jeep was painted in Canadian Kahki, I believe it would be a "top coat"over the original olive.
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  #55  
Old 08-01-07, 21:10
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Survivor featured at G503.com
Military Jeep Model: Willys MB
Serial Number: 155818
Frame Number: MB155818
Data Plate Material: Brass
Date of Delivery: Thursday July 2nd, 1942
Submitted By: James Pringle
Location of Jeep: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Notes/Comments: Vehicle was one of the 11000 that Canada bought during WW2. Has Willys script on rear panel and lifting rings as per the CDLV (Contract Demand Light Vehicle)505. It never went overseas but it was a sad mess after 50 plus years of abuse and hard weather. Reengined with a 2A engine now.
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  #56  
Old 19-01-07, 21:07
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.
Here are examples of

CDLV-242 data plate

CDLV-505 data plate



Courtesy of dataplates4u.com
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  #57  
Old 18-02-07, 22:00
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sign writing in progress: "Unidentified soldier stencilling numbers on the hood of a jeep, England, 21 December 1943"
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  #58  
Old 01-05-07, 01:39
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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One more pic, in colour even. Source: canadiansoldiers.com.

Markings and unit, according to John McGillivray:
-Division sign (yellow maple leaf on a blue background) indicates that it belongs to the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division.
-The red over blue AoS with the number 42 - 4th Field Regiment Royal Canadian Artillery
- Tac Sign - the blue square with the bottom left (viewers right) corner in red - the second battery of the Regiment - 14th Field Battery.
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  #59  
Old 11-05-07, 15:49
Colin Macgregor Stevens Colin Macgregor Stevens is offline
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Default CDLV 241, 242 and The505 and others

The information provided by Wim quoting "the standerdised wartime jeep 1941-45" is quite wrong I believe as it does not match what I have observed in Canadian contract jeeps in the last 30 years of research. The WD numbers are wrong, as are the dates of production. CDLV 505 was produced in at least three distinct production batches so some are early stamped grille(no BODL, WILLYS script) and some have later features (BODL, no script, trailer sockets, Jerrycan carrier).

The CDLV 241, 242 and 505 jeeps did not have USA registration numbers assigned to the best of my knowledge. They were custom made by Willys for Canada. Some were crated at the Willys factory for shipment overseas (ref. CDLV 241/242 contract). All of these jeeps had the 4 lifting rings.

Canada did indeed buy other "off the shelf" jeeps. I used to own a Ford GPW made in April 1943 that had been used at the Defence Research Board at Suffield, Alberta post-WWII and had a DND number. Last year I was given another 1943 Ford, likely ex-Canadian. I have encountered other ex-Canadian GPWs in Canada and most of these seem to be about April 1943 production. Overseas at the end of hostilities in Europe, Canada had quite a mix of Willys and Ford jeeps.



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  #60  
Old 11-05-07, 16:53
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chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Colin, my MB was mfg around Aug 31, 1942 or possibly Sept 1, 1942.
Trying to make it as correct as possible, I could therefore use a non script body, add the BODL assy and eliminate the lifting rings and still be OK?
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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