MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #541  
Old 20-11-17, 03:33
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

After removing the sump as gently as I could it was not a good sight. One corner is all but corroded away and a section of the floor as well and I havn't looked inside yet. Also the crankcase spacer is also quite corroded as well. I knew it was very thin walled as I could hear the sound just tapping it. Rather disapointing
Attached Thumbnails
20171119_172922.jpg   20171119_173045.jpg   20171119_173152.jpg   20171119_173202.jpg   20171119_173344.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #542  
Old 20-11-17, 03:39
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

I may have to re-evaluate this engine The crank appears to be good and I see it does have sleeves but the bottom is a mess. I will consider fabricating the whole bottom section but that will be a last resort as some of may have been line bored and that is not something I can do if it requires precision.
At this stage I will weigh up my options so far.
Attached Thumbnails
20171119_173403.jpg   20171120_095202.jpg   20171120_095210.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #543  
Old 20-11-17, 04:43
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 3,384
Default

Colin.

Bit of a shame with regards to the engine corrosion. It looks from your photos the main engine block assembly is in three parts. Upper holding the cylinders and pistons, middle unit holding the crank and related bits and then a lowermost cast, flat looking rectangular oil sump. Interesting design, if true. Could make for a lot of flexibility for various installations, but also a lot of headaches for restorations. And, of course, the latter point would not have been on anybody’s radar in the Meadows Design Branch in the 1930’s.

David
Reply With Quote
  #544  
Old 20-11-17, 08:05
Dave lean's Avatar
Dave lean Dave lean is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide S.Aust.AU
Posts: 47
Default

Hi Col', with a bit of luck some of the lagonda folk may have a solution.
Reply With Quote
  #545  
Old 20-11-17, 09:24
Richard Farrant's Avatar
Richard Farrant Richard Farrant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 3,634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin jones View Post
I may have to re-evaluate this engine The crank appears to be good and I see it does have sleeves but the bottom is a mess. I will consider fabricating the whole bottom section but that will be a last resort as some of may have been line bored and that is not something I can do if it requires precision.
At this stage I will weigh up my options so far.
Colin,
The Lagonda club appear to have had some new sump castings made, maybe they are adaptable for the tank engine?

https://www.lagondaclub.com/shop/m45...eadows-engine/

I think the sump you have could be made of Elektron, a magnesium alloy, it was also used to make the mantlet in the turret.

Richard
__________________
Richard

1943 Bedford QLD lorry - 1941 BSA WM20 m/cycle - 1943 Daimler Scout Car Mk2
Member of MVT, IMPS, MVG of NSW, KVE and AMVCS
KVE President & KVE News Editor
Reply With Quote
  #546  
Old 20-11-17, 09:37
Niels V's Avatar
Niels V Niels V is offline
Niels Vegger
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 471
Default

I know it might be far fetched, But Jay Jeno had a lower half of HRG engine (think Meadows engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUG...735F5B&index=5
and there was also a feature about 3d scanning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60N...735F5B&index=3

Maybe some this could help
__________________
1941 Chevrolet, Cab 12 CGT, 7A2 body
1944 Ariel W/NG
1944 Scammell Pioneer SV/2S x 2
1955 Austin Champ, 04BF45
Reply With Quote
  #547  
Old 20-11-17, 09:48
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

After a closer look, I can make a new sump and the riser above (I'll call it that)
But I will get the rest checked out first to make sure the top pieces can be resurrected. David, it has a sump, riser, crankcase, block, head, cover. Lots of bits that have to line up precisely. Quite a complicated system.
Dave, I have joined the Lagonda club but waiting for approval.
Richard, I would say you are spot on what it is made of and would be very hard to weld which is why I would make the parts out of steel if I do in fact go down that path. They certainly don't look like difficult parts to make but I do not want to create any more work that I already have. Hopefully the members of the Lagonda club may be able to steer me in the right direction.
Colin.
Reply With Quote
  #548  
Old 20-11-17, 13:53
simon king simon king is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: North Notts, United Kingdom
Posts: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niels V View Post
I know it might be far fetched, But Jay Jeno had a lower half of HRG engine (think Meadows engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUG...735F5B&index=5
and there was also a feature about 3d scanning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60N...735F5B&index=3

Maybe some this could help
I think the Hurg used the 4 cylinder, 1500cc Meadows Unit unfortunately.
__________________
Simon King (MVT1406)
Ford GPW 43097 / M1501912 / 40YH40
SS Cars 10cwt GS Trailer
Bedford MWR 47140 / 49RG30
Reply With Quote
  #549  
Old 21-11-17, 13:21
Phillip's Avatar
Phillip Phillip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 174
Default Wombat

Hi Colin,

Awesome job. In case you do not have it, a picture from the book 'Tanks in the East'.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_0964.JPG  
__________________
Phillip Thompson

"He who has the tiger by the tale, is often afraid to let go" - Confucius

Ford FGT No.9 (long suffering restoration project)
25 Pdr (Under Restoration)
No.27 Artillery Trailer (Under Restoration)
Bit and pieces of a 2 pdr AT (Looking for bits)
LP2a Carrier - 3" Mortar Trials (Restored)
Reply With Quote
  #550  
Old 21-11-17, 18:33
Richard Farrant's Avatar
Richard Farrant Richard Farrant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 3,634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip View Post
Hi Colin,

Awesome job. In case you do not have it, a picture from the book 'Tanks in the East'.
And if my eyes are not deceiving me, the following tank is 272 Platypus (another survivor, now in USA). Good photo!
__________________
Richard

1943 Bedford QLD lorry - 1941 BSA WM20 m/cycle - 1943 Daimler Scout Car Mk2
Member of MVT, IMPS, MVG of NSW, KVE and AMVCS
KVE President & KVE News Editor
Reply With Quote
  #551  
Old 22-11-17, 19:15
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
Junior Password Gnome
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 814
Default

From the thickness of the (single) aerial, I'd say it's using 'D' rods and therefore probably a Wireless Set No.11 (unless it's really early).

Chris.
Reply With Quote
  #552  
Old 22-11-17, 20:03
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 3,384
Default

Nice photo, Philip! Now Colin can plan a vacation with Wombat and Bowerbird to do a ‘Then and Now’ photo shoot at that spot.

Looking at that photo, is that part of the driver’s face just above the fire extinguisher, in the corner where the upper edge of the sideplate meets the headlamp box? If so, he sits quite far back in the vehicle. Must have been quite uncomfortable, when buttoned up, to have to use the Driver’s viewing port.

David
Reply With Quote
  #553  
Old 23-11-17, 04:04
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

Phillip, what a great photo. I don't think I have seen that one and it does clarify that the name of Wombat is white on green and not on a black backing. Thanks for posting
The crank is now exposed and all bearings have been removed, inspected and just put back into place. They actually look good as does the crank but I have a mech coming over this arvo to check it out for me. The bottom riser needs replacing and the sump as well.
Attached Thumbnails
20171123_124917.jpg   20171123_124959.jpg   20171123_125008.jpg   20171123_125124.jpg   20171123_125129.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #554  
Old 23-11-17, 09:59
stephen crowhurst stephen crowhurst is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Kent. England
Posts: 148
Default Photo

Just remembered I had this photo tucked away, it may be of some interest to you.
Cheers Stephen
Attached Thumbnails
vickers tank 001.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #555  
Old 23-11-17, 10:13
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,534
Default

In keeping with what Chris says, the Bovington tank has the folding aerial mount that takes the same base / insulator etc. as the early U.C., with D set aerial. At least it did, in mid 2014.
If that aerial set up only went with the 11 set radio, then that must have been what was fitted originally or at some point. As I recall the mount has been fitted with a later base.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 23-11-17 at 18:59.
Reply With Quote
  #556  
Old 23-11-17, 16:48
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Cody, Wyoming, USA
Posts: 2,365
Default

The No9 (and 109?) uses the D set aerial, I think, but wiser wireless-souls than I can verify that.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #557  
Old 23-11-17, 19:03
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,534
Default

Yes Mike, It's a whole nuther thing, involving Warlocks and sulphur.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #558  
Old 24-11-17, 20:00
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,059
Default

Colin.

This may seem extreme..... but..... I will suggest it and run away...

can you not build up the corroded sections sufficiently to make a pattern to re cast a replacement ? I have no doubt this would be a very long process, but big hurdles have never stopped you in the past ?

looking at the corrosion product, it wreaks of dissimilar metal corrosion. I feel for you matey.
__________________
is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
Reply With Quote
  #559  
Old 24-11-17, 21:19
Richard Farrant's Avatar
Richard Farrant Richard Farrant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 3,634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardT10829 View Post
can you not build up the corroded sections sufficiently to make a pattern to re cast a replacement ? I have no doubt this would be a very long process, but big hurdles have never stopped you in the past ?

looking at the corrosion product, it wreaks of dissimilar metal corrosion. I feel for you matey.
Richard,
As I mentioned to Colin recently, I believe the sump and its adaptor were made of a magnesium alloy called Elektron, which was very much in its infancy when this Vickers was built. It had a tendency to corrode in the early days, but later developments made it much more resistant to corrosion, just look at all the grey Ferguson TE20 tractors from the late 40's/early 50's that are still around, the gearbox casing was made of the same type of metal. It is very tricky to weld and need to be careful as it will burn. The fabricator that restored the hull of another of the Aussie Vickers MkVIa tanks brought back to England, had to build up the mantlet where it had crumbled away, it was a painstaking job, I think he was using TIG as I recall.
I don't think it was a case of dissimilar metals, but just an alloy susceptible to corrosion or breakdown.
__________________
Richard

1943 Bedford QLD lorry - 1941 BSA WM20 m/cycle - 1943 Daimler Scout Car Mk2
Member of MVT, IMPS, MVG of NSW, KVE and AMVCS
KVE President & KVE News Editor
Reply With Quote
  #560  
Old 25-11-17, 01:27
Snowy Snowy is offline
Steve
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Oz
Posts: 113
Default

There was a restoration of a 100 year old Delage car engine where the block was scanned and a 3D master printed then cast (done right here in Oz, as well!):
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video...otive-history/
I wonder if they could give you any advice.
Reply With Quote
  #561  
Old 25-11-17, 01:54
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 547
Default

Very interesting link Snowy. I didn't realise that you can 3D print a sand mould direct. Beautiful result but must have been expensive as all that high tech gear must be paid for by the work it produces.

David
Reply With Quote
  #562  
Old 25-11-17, 10:24
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

Thankyou all for your input. I have decided to go down the path of fabricating a new sump and riser. I think recasting would be very expensive and I feel quite confident in making the parts myself which I will do while the professional people do the head, block etc etc. On a good note however, I removed the oil pump from the crank case and pulled it apart. It is in great condition so I just cleaned the gears and blasted the housing and it will work like a new one which is not bad for 80 or so years old. The sump is 100% not useable as you can see and what you can't see is just as bad. At least I know what I have to do.
Attached Thumbnails
20171124_115029.jpg   20171124_115048.jpg   20171125_090403.jpg   20171125_091242.jpg   20171125_184546.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #563  
Old 25-11-17, 10:26
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

The two brass sieves are good as is the 6 cross members that hold them in place. They will be used again.
Attached Thumbnails
20171125_184550.jpg   20171125_184553.jpg   20171125_184607.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #564  
Old 26-11-17, 03:38
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

I managed to get the crankshaft out with no issues and it does look good and so does the block. I certainly does have sleeves so that is another thing in my favour.
Attached Thumbnails
20171126_090830.jpg   20171126_103251.jpg   20171126_103300.jpg   20171126_103306.jpg   20171126_115720.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #565  
Old 26-11-17, 03:42
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

I'm really happy that 4 of the 6 pistons came out without too much drama but the other two will take a bit more time. I cleaned the top of the pistons and they are all marked 1-6, dated 1936 and the military markings as well so they certainly are originals.
Attached Thumbnails
20171126_115733.jpg   20171126_125331.jpg   20171126_125355.jpg   20171126_125410.jpg   20171126_125419.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #566  
Old 26-11-17, 06:20
Dave Mills Dave Mills is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Seymour,Victoria, Australia
Posts: 192
Default

Hello Colin, have been watching the rebuild and am amazed at the attention to detail. Well done!!. Like a lot of us we are all itching to assist and wishing we lived closer. I read the last post in regards to the pistons.

I may be wrong and way off the mark here but I feel from the photos they look much the same as the Rolls Royce "B" series engine pistons. A few little differences as in the expansion grooves in the skirt etc.

Have just overhauled our "B60" out of the Humber and spotted enough similarities I believe to prompt me to make contact.

"B60"
Bore - 3.5 Inch (88.9mm)
Stroke - 4.5 inch (114.29mm)
Capacity - 259.78 cu. in. (4.25 Litres)

If they are close enough to wet your appetite I am willing to post a NOS (0.20 OS) and a Used Standard piston to you for comparison.

I also now the location of ample NOS - Standard - 0.010 OS and 0.020 OS piston sets a lot closer to you than Seymour.

It makes it easier seeing your block is sleeved the only maybe could be the piston Pin location and diameter.

Cheers,

Dave.
Attached Images
   
__________________
1 x 1955 Austin Champ WN1(restored)
2 x 1956 Austin Champ WN1(restored)
1 x 1955 Humber 4 x 4 GS (restored)
1 x 1945 FMC 1/4 Ton Trailer (restored)
1 x 1942 Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer (restored)
Reply With Quote
  #567  
Old 26-11-17, 06:38
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

Hi Dave, thanks for the offer but I am pretty sure the B60/80 engines have different pistons but as luck is partly on my side I will possibly be able to use 4 of my 6 pistons and just get new liners. I have just put the block in my press and got the last two out and one liner came out with it with relative ease. It is no biggy to get two new pistons made of the same size so I will do that as the last two have very bad pitting on the top and I don't think you could weld them and expect it to hold up to the heat and pressure they are subject to. All in all I am glad to have my engine back and also to be doing it myself.
Attached Thumbnails
20171126_155239.jpg   20171126_155251.jpg   20171126_155303.jpg   20171126_155437.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #568  
Old 26-11-17, 11:48
simon king simon king is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: North Notts, United Kingdom
Posts: 43
Default

The Lagonda aficionados seem to use TWR (presumably Tom Walkinshaw Racing) Volvo pistons so that avenue might at least be worth investigating.
__________________
Simon King (MVT1406)
Ford GPW 43097 / M1501912 / 40YH40
SS Cars 10cwt GS Trailer
Bedford MWR 47140 / 49RG30
Reply With Quote
  #569  
Old 26-11-17, 12:15
Tony Smith's Avatar
Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
No1, Mk 2** (I'm back!)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lithgow, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon king View Post
The Lagonda aficionados seem to use TWR (presumably Tom Walkinshaw Racing) Volvo pistons ....
And also seem to suggest that sleeving the block creates overheating issues and piston seizures:

http://www.lagondaforum.com/showtopic.php?id=845
__________________
You can help Keep Mapleleafup Up! See Here how you can help, and why you should!
Reply With Quote
  #570  
Old 26-11-17, 20:36
colin jones's Avatar
colin jones colin jones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,810
Default

Hmm, that was some interesting reading from the Lagonda club. I saw the interview with the restorer of the Mk1V which has the same engine and they were also told about Volvo pistons but said they were of the same dimension but the gudgeon was a different height and not suitable for the application. I don't think you could run without liners as the distance between the bores are so thin. These engines might be different as they might be mil spec. The sump is certainly different to any that is in the cars, the fan and radiator set up is way different as well. It is interesting to say the least. There is a company in Belgium that I am I contact with that supplies new cast parts and I am waiting for some very scary prices back. In the Lagonda forum comments I noticed they were doing a lot of miles which wont happen in a tank but they are a lot heavier and cooling may be an issue.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Door Resto Barry Churcher The Restoration Forum 13 15-05-22 15:36
FAT cab 13 No 9 resto Mrs Vampire The Softskin Forum 27 29-09-21 06:11
C15A resto harrygrey382 The Restoration Forum 9 08-06-15 09:40
another CAN m37 resto Steve Wilson The Restoration Forum 11 25-08-12 15:57
m 37 resto in new brunswick pauljboudreau Post-war Military Vehicles 118 07-03-11 22:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016