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  #31  
Old 21-08-18, 19:16
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jdmcm jdmcm is offline
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I think the picture on the right Anthony posted, was bought by a Canadian collector, the now defunct Georgina Keswick Military Museum, memory strikes me he also had a Leo with the drivers cab intact, and that odd turret was built for the movie "Jumper" which was partly filmed in Ontario.

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NOTE: Just heard from Ian Johns, he has corrected my post in which I called the Georgina Keswick Military Museum "defunct" He assures me it is alive and well, My apology to Ian and the museum

Last edited by jdmcm; 28-09-18 at 05:11. Reason: Correcting inaccurate information
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  #32  
Old 21-08-18, 20:59
James P James P is offline
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To funny, the bottom half of that odd ball "turret" uses the bottom of the driver cab, I wonder if the tank when it left CF service came fully set up as a cab tank and driveable from the cab or the museum cobbled the cab on a running hull ? Then made the cab into a weird turret, interesting. I think the Oshawa museum has five Leopards two or three ex-Belgium, a couple Canadian and will let those with greater insight add comment.
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  #33  
Old 21-08-18, 21:59
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The Museum bought some Ex Belgium Leopard 1A5's via Poland, they also had 2 ex movie props, which are now re done to look like Leopard C1's.

Anthony
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  #34  
Old 25-08-18, 06:44
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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To the original poster, Mike Cecil,
Mike, we bought two Leopard trainers and "converted" them back to turreted tanks. If you want, we still have the training turrets you can take a look at when you visit in November. The hulls are incredibly roomy because of all the stuff that was stripped out.
Malcolm
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  #35  
Old 27-08-18, 19:35
45jim 45jim is offline
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Default D&M Squadron

I was in D&M squadron in Gagetown in 1985 prior to posting to Calgary. We had four driver trainers with cabs. There were no spare driver cabs about and we were told that there were no driver cabs in Europe. We also had the driver position cut-aways for training drivers with warning light immediate actions.

Gunnery squadron had the four turrets (from those tanks) mounted on stands on the indoor miniature range. The CFR was painted on the hulls and turrets of those tanks. Supposedly, when a tank was to go for a rebuild it had to take its turret with it.

The modifications for the driver cab installation were accelerator linkage, steering linkage, transmission shift linkage, brake linkage and lighting interface. The tank could be driven from the driver instructors position and he had mechanical advantage over the driver so he could take over
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  #36  
Old 27-08-18, 22:35
Mike Cecil Mike Cecil is offline
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Thanks Malcolm, I'd certainly like a close look at the Museum's Leopards as well as the Cent.

See you in November.

45Jim: thanks for the info. I appreciate everyone's input on this, it is much appreciated.

Mike
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  #37  
Old 23-09-18, 15:47
Ian Johns Ian Johns is offline
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I know the old owner of the one on the right and if I remember correctly I remember seeing 2 or 3 training cabs in his yard. I'll check the next time I'm there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strat1 View Post
July 1978 ,9 Leopard C1’s issued to Royal Canadian Armoured School. They were divided between Gunnery and Driving and Maintenance squadrons. The turrets were taken off, placed on turret stands, the hulls were fitted with an Instructors cabin for driving training.

More might have been purchased, but no records show this, or the number of 37 cabins. To convert a gun tank to driver instructor was a plug and play affair with quick disconnects.

23 Leo 1 hulls were sold off, all were to be de-milled with armour sections taken out of upper/lower front hull areas. a few have made it back to Canada , the Ontario Regiment Museum bought 2 which were movie props, the vismod movie turrets have been taken off, and vismod C1 looking turrets added, but they used the CFB Borden German Leo 1A4 for measurements to build the new turrets, so they are actually 1A4's, not our 1A3 turret versions.

Cheers

Anthony
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  #38  
Old 27-09-18, 17:07
BradB BradB is offline
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Found this on F-Book today - not sure how pertinent it is, but it is a Training Cab Leo!

Sorry - in detail, group photo from a 1981 Advanced Driver and Maintenance Course in Gagetown.

Brad
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  #39  
Old 27-09-18, 19:25
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradB View Post
...group photo from a 1981 Advanced Driver and Maintenance Course in Gagetown.
Brad,

Why so many infantrymen on an advanced driver and maintenance course?

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #40  
Old 28-09-18, 15:48
James P James P is offline
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The attached Infantry types would do the "common" portion of the course of wheels and tracks but not the tank unless they where seconded to the school. There was even a Engineer teaching D&M (as they have the Leo bridge layer), the idea was the Armour school being the self touted centre of excellence that instructors going through there would rise the level of D&M instruction for outside units................I am hardly convinced it ever rose to that ideal.
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  #41  
Old 23-12-18, 00:21
Lance Wiebe Lance Wiebe is offline
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I may be able to add some information.
I was the Leopard Gunnery WO in Gagetown in the early 90's, and was part of the Leopard Thermal Upgrade Project, that resulted in the C2.

There were indeed a total of 5 driving cabs bought, as previously stated.

The IMR in K19 had 6 turret stands. 4 of the turrets came from the D&M tanks, while the remaining 2 were part of a buy of 4 turrets we bought over and above the 114 C1's. Two were used in Borden, and two in Gagetown.

Side story, one thing that always bothered me about the D&M tanks was that when they went to rebuild at 10,000 KM, I had to take one of my IMR turrets, that had never fired anything more than a laser, and send it to rebuild as well. Meanwhile, my gun tanks had fired 10's of thousands of main gun rounds, the turrets were totally worn out, but couldn't go to rebuild because the hulls only had 3 or 4 thousand KM on them.

There were two types of turret stands, one type used in the IMR, and the other type used by RCEME to plunk a turret when it was removed from a tank for whatever reason.

We bought 113 Leopard 1A5 turrets to convert our tanks to C2. We also bought 24 hulls to replace the hulls that were worn too thin and were starting to buckle.

Shortly after the project, the decision came that tanks were dead, and everyone started clammering for targets, for monuments, or whatever.

And shortly after that, came the new decision that tanks were not dead, and we needed them after all. Only 66 tanks were left......

There's still a bunch of C2's sitting in Gagetown, waiting for a new life, or the scrapyard.
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  #42  
Old 23-12-18, 01:53
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe View Post
There were indeed a total of 5 driving cabs bought, as previously stated.
Thanks for confirming this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe View Post
...while the remaining 2 were part of a buy of 4 turrets we bought over and above the 114 C1's. Two were used in Borden, and two in Gagetown.
I've never heard this before. Great piece of info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe View Post
...the decision came that tanks were dead, and everyone started clammering for targets, for monuments, or whatever.

And shortly after that, came the new decision that tanks were not dead, and we needed them after all. Only 66 tanks were left...
I don't think anyone who's ever worked in or for a bureaucracy, particularly the CF, would be surprised at a story like this.

Keep the reminisces coming.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #43  
Old 23-12-18, 03:51
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Leopard Numbers and Questions

Leopard Figures

1978 Purchase – 128 Vehicles but only 127 according to allotted CFR numbers.

6 x Bridgelayers (Beaver)
8 x Armoured Recovery Vehicles (Taurus)
113 x Leopard 1A3 (C1) Main Battle Tanks

127 Leopards

C-30-731-000/MA-001 Data Summary Tank Leopard C1 MBT from 1980 states 114.
C-30-731-000/MA-001 Data Summary Tank Leopard C1 MBT from 1996 states 114.
C-30-732-000/MA-001 Data Summary Armoured Vehicle Launching Bridge Beaver from 1997 states 6.
C-30-733-000/MA-001 Data Summary Armoured Recovery Vehicle Taurus from 1997 states 8.

I have a discrepancy of 1 Leopard C1 MBT that I cannot account for which is carried over into the C2 upgrade..

1996 Upgrade to C2

114 C1s to be upgraded to C2 by replacing turrets with German 1A5 turrets but retaining Canadian L7A1 105mm guns.
123 German 1A5 Leopards were purchased for the conversion and the chassis were retained by the German firm contracted to do the upgrade work on the turrets, and they sold them as spares.
Australia bought 55 C1 turrets and some surplus C1 hulls.
Only 66 Leopard C2s were converted when the project finished in 2001.
Of the remaining C2 turrets, five were used as training turrets, two as complete spares for the EMES18 fire-control system and two as maintenance test beds. I don’t know anything about the fate of the remaining 48 1A5 turrets.

C-71-345-000/MA-001 Data Summary Turret Leopard C2 Tank from 1999 states 114.
C-30-731-000/MA-001 Data Summary Tank Leopard C2 MBT from 2006 still states 114.

Driver Training

In October 1992 DND recorded that 37 Leopards had been converted to ECC 116104 – Driver Training yet Canada apparently only had 5 cabins.

Two Questions

1. So when D&M tanks went in for rebuild were other Leopard C1s converted to D&M status thus accounting for the 37 recorded?

2. The 24 hulls, I have nothing on these, where they given their own individual CFR numbers and if so, what were they?
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  #44  
Old 23-12-18, 05:30
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe View Post

We bought 113 Leopard 1A5 turrets to convert our tanks to C2. We also bought 24 hulls to replace the hulls that were worn too thin and were starting to buckle.
Lance, I'm curious, what causes hulls to get so thin they start to buckle?
Malcolm
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  #45  
Old 23-12-18, 12:18
Lance Wiebe Lance Wiebe is offline
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We only modified 113 C1's to C2 because LETE had borrowed a tank from Germany. This tank was a Leo1A4 that had been highly modified, it had the EMES 18 fire control system, turret electric drive that replaced the hydraulic system in our tanks, and had, at one point, been modified to have an independent commander sight. This sight had been removed, and a plate welded in the turret top to cover the hole.
To compensate for this tank, we left one tank in Germany. So, we did have 114 tanks, but only 113 were C2's. I have no idea what happened to the LETE tank after it left Gagetown.

I had borrowed the LETE tank after the project started to develop the new gunnery tables and to trial some tactics that would be required once we had a tank with true night fighting capabilities. I put quite a few KM's and fired quite a few rounds out of it in Gagetown.

The C Squadron tanks in Gagetown were used hard, combined with the rocky terrain and use, the hulls were worn and developed metal fatigue, causing the hulls to bend so bad the power packs could not be removed. Several fixes were proposed, the easiest and cheapest solution was to buy more hulls from Germany.

I might add, we had two choices in the Leopard Thermal Upgrade Project. The first choice was to modify our existing turrets with the EMES 18, as the Danes did with their tanks. However, no company in Canada had the requisite skill and equipment to do this, which meant all of our turrets would have to be sent to Germany. This was to expensive, as our project had a cap of 130 million dollars. The second choice was to buy surplus German Leo 1A5 tanks and use their turrets. This is obviously what we went with.
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  #46  
Old 23-12-18, 12:32
Lance Wiebe Lance Wiebe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Leopard Figures

Two Questions

1. So when D&M tanks went in for rebuild were other Leopard C1s converted to D&M status thus accounting for the 37 recorded?

2. The 24 hulls, I have nothing on these, where they given their own individual CFR numbers and if so, what were they?
I got in a lot of trouble at one point. I had one turret in Gunnery that was so worn, it was almost impossible to use on the ranges. When one of the D&M tanks had to go for rebuild, I did a swap. Instead of putting its IMR turret on it, I put the worn out turret on it. Apparently, the ECC for the turret and hull did not match, so my gunnery tank obviously had not been modified for the driver cab. Ottawa was not pleased at all.

I would assume, (just guessing) that some tanks going for rebuild were slated for the School in Gagetown, and were modified to accept the cab.

Most of the extra hulls were sent to 25 CFSD in Montreal to be stripped and used for spare parts. A few (three or four, I can't remember exactly) were used to replace the C Sqn worn out hulls, and adopted the original CFR.
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  #47  
Old 24-12-18, 02:19
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Leopard Driver Training Cabin

Here is another photograph of the Leopard Driver Training Cabin.

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  #48  
Old 24-12-18, 13:47
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Hi Lance

Welcome aboard. Im sure that with all your varied service that you have a lot of detail and facts to add to the Forum.

I may be in touch soon to help pick one of those C2s parked at the old railhead worth keeping for the Museum.

Is that Tom Skeltoons in the Adv D&M photo??

regards
Darrell
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  #49  
Old 24-12-18, 14:05
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell Zinck View Post
I may be in touch soon to help pick one of those C2s parked at the old railhead worth keeping for the Museum.

That's funny. When I was in Gagetown in 1980, I was attached with C squadron. The leopards were still on warranty, and down by the rail-head near base supply were about 10 Centurions. They were rumored to be heading to Switzerland to be made into gun emplacements but I think they ended up in Isreal? There were also two Cents and two ferrets parked down Shirley road waiting to go for targets.



I scrounged a manual out of one of the cents at that rail-head. Usually when I hold onto a manual I eventually end up with an example of that vehicle in the stable. Fortunately that did not happen this time.

Last edited by rob love; 24-12-18 at 22:17.
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  #50  
Old 24-12-18, 17:13
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie View Post
Lance, I'm curious, what causes hulls to get so thin they start to buckle?
Malcolm
Supposedly the bottom plates on several Leopards had been ground unstructurally thin by driving over rocks and extremely gritty soils in the Gagetown training area.
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  #51  
Old 24-12-18, 19:33
Lance Wiebe Lance Wiebe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell Zinck View Post
Hi Lance

Welcome aboard. Im sure that with all your varied service that you have a lot of detail and facts to add to the Forum.

I may be in touch soon to help pick one of those C2s parked at the old railhead worth keeping for the Museum.

Is that Tom Skeltoons in the Adv D&M photo??

regards
Darrell
Thanks Darrell!
I recognize both Tom Skelding and Frank Austin in the picture.
I never had the Advanced D&M, I had advance Comms and Advance Armour Gunner.
You know where I hang out, come see me anytime and we'll go have a look.

Lance
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  #52  
Old 24-12-18, 19:36
Lance Wiebe Lance Wiebe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
That's funny. When I was in Gagetown in 1980, I was attached with C squadron. The leopards were still on warranty, and down by the rail-head near base supply were about 10 Centurions. They were rumored to be heading to Switzerland to be made into gun emplacements but I think they ended up is Isreal? There were also two Cents and two ferrets parked down Shirley road waiting to go for targets.



I scrounged a manual out of one of the cents at that rail-head. Usually when I hold onto a manual I eventually end up with an example of that vehicle in the stable. Fortunately that did not happen this time.
Interesting story, when I came back from Germany in 1980 for my Advance Comms course, a friend of mine said that the Swiss company and soldiers checking the Centurions out were accompanied by Israelis in civilian clothing.

Things that make you go hmmm......
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  #53  
Old 27-02-19, 05:31
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Luc Perreault Luc Perreault is offline
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Default Leo trainer...

I know of a leo trainer in private hands in Québec. Parked outside a garage.
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  #54  
Old 21-03-19, 14:31
John Genereux John Genereux is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Wiebe View Post
I got in a lot of trouble at one point. I had one turret in Gunnery that was so worn, it was almost impossible to use on the ranges. When one of the D&M tanks had to go for rebuild, I did a swap. Instead of putting its IMR turret on it, I put the worn out turret on it. Apparently, the ECC for the turret and hull did not match, so my gunnery tank obviously had not been modified for the driver cab. Ottawa was not pleased at all.

I would assume, (just guessing) that some tanks going for rebuild were slated for the School in Gagetown, and were modified to accept the cab.

Most of the extra hulls were sent to 25 CFSD in Montreal to be stripped and used for spare parts. A few (three or four, I can't remember exactly) were used to replace the C Sqn worn out hulls, and adopted the original CFR.
Those hulls were sent to 25 CFSD, but the stripping of them was done at 202 Workshop Depot. I was here when a bunch of the hulls arrived for " re-supplying specific parts " that were critically low. I remember that one part that was not on the list was final drives. We must have scrapped about 10-15 sets of them. Some parts that were not required by the supply system were squirreled away in the shop to be used on future leo's coming through here.
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  #55  
Old 11-04-19, 23:04
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jdmcm jdmcm is offline
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Here is a Leopard 1 from Soucy Defense with driver cab. Photo credit:Soucy Systems

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