Captured Ford C11ADF Station Wagon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Note the sun visor:

Source: http://www.album-mmt.it/details.php?image_id=14316

[Bill Murray]

Nice pic, Hanno:

That puppy has been rode hard and put away wet about one time too many.

Interesting the Italians captioned it as a Chev on their site.

First Italian site I have bookmarked. Time to learn another language, thank goodness it is at least close to Spanish.
Cheers
Bill

[Kuno]

Are you sure that it should be a sun visor? Might e thought to avoid reflections of the sun to not to be recognized by the enemy.

See as well the cover of the windscreen of the Kfz 15 on the same pic.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Kuno
Are you sure that it should be a sun visor? Might e thought to avoid reflections of the sun to not to be recognized by the enemy.

Kuno, I didn't think of that. I common thing to reduce glare in the desert apparently was to paint over the windows and throw sand over the wet paint, then wipe a small vision slot. But it could well be this huge sun visor had the same purpose - also see the Dodge D8A/T212 with a sun visor.

And before anyone suggest it: the CMP cab 13' windows were not slanted to prevent recognition from the air(!)

H.

[Snowtractor]

It looks like it is well fastened along the top edge of the window and easily foldable or collapsible at the forward end. Could it also be used to protect the glass from sand storms sandblasting it opaque. Otherwise why not make it more securely with tin or wood?
Sean

Originally posted by Snowtractor
It looks like it is well fastened along the top edge of the window and easily foldable or collapsible at the forward end. Could it also be used to protect the glass from sand storms sandblasting it opaque. Otherwise why not make it more securely with tin or wood?

Oh lets not run away with ourselves; I mailed the picture to the Baron Paulus, my nearby and tame walking encyclopedia on the Wehrmacht. It is apparently a standard issue bit of multi-purpose kit made by the thousand, what we would now call CES.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
It is apparently a standard issue bit of multi-purpose kit made by the thousand, what we would now call CES.

Great, but serving which purpose?
Sun visor, anti-air recognition device, sand storm prectection device? All-in-one jack-of-all-trades?
Of German or British origin?

H.

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Great, but serving which purpose?
Sun visor, anti-air recognition device, sand storm prectection device? All-in-one jack-of-all-trades?

Yes and yes.

Of German or British origin?

German standard issue. I have now looked closely at some pictures of the lighter vehicles and Kübels especially with windscreens folded flat and now often see them in this multi-purpose bag/visor.

R.

[Bill Murray]

Let me see if I have this right. The apparatus attached over the windscreen of the Ford is the same thing contained in the canvas bag on the Kfz15 and is a multipurpose piece of kit.

The reason I ask is that I looked through a half dozen books on German military transport just now and that same canvas bag can be found on literally every type of WWII era transport vehicle from the small Kfz up to the largest half tracks that had a folding forward windscreen. Not on every one by a wide margin but certainly at least on some. As a side note, I found no vehicles with that bag that had fixed or partly fixed, as on Hanno's Ford, windscreens.
Just curious.
Bill

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Let me see if I have this right. The apparatus attached over the windscreen of the Ford is the same thing contained in the canvas bag on the Kfz15 and is a multipurpose piece of kit.

The bag is the thing itself.

The reason I ask is that I looked through a half dozen books on German military transport just now and that same canvas bag can be found on literally every type of WWII era transport vehicle from the small Kfz up to the largest half tracks that had a folding forward windscreen. Not on every one by a wide margin but certainly at least on some. As a side note, I found no vehicles with that bag that had fixed or partly fixed, as on Hanno's Ford, windscreens.

Exactly so, having been directed at some pictures from my German restorer, I too noticed the widespread use of the device. Like British kit especially, it gets lost, damaged or left somewhere safely so it can be accounted for!!

The desert was an entirely different matter where both sides did all manner of local ad hoc mods for their own convenience; this Ford is using a device from another vehicle, perhaps damaged or in for repair, maybe the Wehrmacht/DAK stores Gefrieter has conveniently "lost" one and the driver has a mate in the DAK "REME" who did a five minute mod to fit it whilst his boss was away.

Maybe the vehicle has been detailed as a staff car owing to DAK shortages and the using officer has just had his driver go to their "REME" with a chit to have one fitted as a local mod.

The Wehrmacht was just as innovative as we were, in fact perhaps more so, and all manner of "local mods" seem to have been carried out as the situation demands.

We do it to this day, the last Gulf War vehicles have all manner of locally made expedient mods, the UK APCs and Challengers have a heap of non-standard stuff hung around the outside, mainly for crew kit stowage, and end up looking like a tinkers cart.

So much so that vehicle recognition at range becomes difficult/impossible and this may well have contributed to the Challenger vs Challenger engagement which demonstrated the power of its main gun; Chally 2 is no match for its own gun.

R.

[Bill Murray]

Thanks for the confirmation and the fuller explanation of the canvas bag as the whole thing rather than just a "carrier" for the kit.

And, yes, those of all military forces must become scroungers first class to keep things going or improve their situation.

You may have followed the flap stirred up when our SecDef Rumsfeld got his head handed to him relative to the lack of protective armour on some of our HumVees and most of our transport tractors. His lame explanation that "front line" equipment was adequately armoured fell on rather deaf ears considering that today the whole bloody country is the "front line". Interesting too that the young man involved pointed out that they had to scrounge scrap materiels from Kuwaiti breaker's yards to cobble up some sort of better protection for their vehicles. They called it "Hillbilly Armour". Quite fitting I thought but it is a shame that they are forced to do such things.
Bill

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Thanks for the confirmation and the fuller explanation of the canvas bag as the whole thing rather than just a "carrier" for the kit.

Yup, that is how my German expert describes it.

And, yes, those of all military forces must become scroungers first class to keep things going or improve their situation.

Indeed, not a lot of change it seems in 60 years or more.

You may have followed the flap stirred up when our SecDef Rumsfeld got his head handed to him relative to the lack of protective armour on some of our HumVees and most of our transport tractors. His lame explanation that "front line" equipment was adequately armoured fell on rather deaf ears considering that today the whole bloody country is the "front line". Interesting too that the young man involved pointed out that they had to scrounge scrap materiels from Kuwaiti breaker's yards to cobble up some sort of better protection for their vehicles. They called it "Hillbilly Armour". Quite fitting I thought but it is a shame that they are forced to do such things.

We did indeed see Donald get somewhat "ducked" by the articulate US soldier and its almost a case of Cullin hedgerow cutters all over again. I wouldn't have used the term "lame" for his answer exactly, you're too kind.

The western world seems to be fixed on designing its military hardware in committee without lowering themselves to consult the lowly ranking users/operators, same here and it serves nothing well.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
German standard issue. I have now looked closely at some pictures of the lighter vehicles and Kübels especially with windscreens folded flat and now often see them in this multi-purpose bag/visor.

Sorry, I'm still not with you. Are we looking at different things here? I can understand why Paul's eyes were instantly drawn to the Kfz 15 on the right, it's the same sort of preoccupation causing me to look at the Ford Woodie

But I can't figure out how one can tell the sun visor on the Ford was fabricated (because that is what must have happened) from a standard issue folding windscreen canvas cover - it could have been fabricated from any piece of canvas. And who says it was not fitted by it's previous owner, the same careful one who went through the trouble of fitting a folding penthouse to the side of the roof?


Source: http://visualcollector.com/OBLI/JeepSignals.htm

BTW, has anyone noticed those helmets on the Kfz 15? "Standard issue lens covers"?!?

[Bill Murray]

Morning Hanno:

I think we may on the same page here but in different books.

My understanding of the whole situation is that based on the photographic evidence we have all commented on here, the windshield canvas kit was very widely used on the whole gamut of German vehicles. Therefore, they would have been inclined to not only use the feature on their own vehicles so equipped but to also try to rig up the same thing on non standard or captured vehicles such as your Wagon. In my opinion, the apparatus seen on the wagon was "home built" probably out of whatever materiels may have been available at the time.

Your Jeep photo was most interesting as I do not recall ever seeing a canvas windshield cover for a US vehicle. May be there, I just don't remember seeing one. Nor, for that matter, do I remember seeing any British or Commonwealth vehicles that had fold down windscreens equipped with a cover before.
I will certainly be on the lookout when I am looking over pics in the future.
Bill
OOPS: missed the lens cover remark. That was my thought exactly too.

[Bill Murray]

This is not at all the same as Hanno's pic but is at least related to his wagon. Bad pic, nice looking vehicle. From Military Machines Int.
Bill Why it ate half a page I don't know. Hanno???
Never mind, I now see my mistake but I will leave it for now or Hanno can reduce it. Breaking my near new scanner on another PC and getting fits for my trouble.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Never mind, I now see my mistake but I will leave it for now or Hanno can reduce it.

Sure, Hanno'll fix it. Have deleted your scan and attached the resized one here.

Interesting pic, seems this Ford is painted in Caunter scheme camouflage.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
My understanding of the whole situation is that based on the photographic evidence we have all commented on here, the windshield canvas kit was very widely used on the whole gamut of German vehicles. Therefore, they would have been inclined to not only use the feature on their own vehicles so equipped but to also try to rig up the same thing on non standard or captured vehicles such as your Wagon. In my opinion, the apparatus seen on the wagon was "home built" probably out of whatever materiels may have been available at the time.

My point exactly. I´m sure the Germans supplied their vehicles with folding windscreens with standard issue windshield cover. But since this is basically a rectangular bag, I can´t see how one can claim the sun visor on the Ford Woodie is a standard issue bit of multi-purpose kit made by the thousand. We don´t even know for sure if it was fitted by the Germans or Allies.

Your Jeep photo was most interesting as I do not recall ever seeing a canvas windshield cover for a US vehicle. May be there, I just don't remember seeing one. Nor, for that matter, do I remember seeing any British or Commonwealth vehicles that had fold down windscreens equipped with a cover before.

The Biography of Russ Cloer might be an explanation why one rearly sees the windshield cover fitted:

And the windshield was always down flat on the hood in its canvas cover so as not to obstruct firing to the front or cast reflected light which might give away our position. Comfort was not a factor. The canvas windshield cover served as a waterproof foot locker for the driver's personal belongings, which usually meant that any glass remaining in the windshield was cracked or shattered by a restless bottle of vino or some other hard object.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[Bill Murray]

Interesting pic I have not seen here
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Note the sun visor

This is an AEC Armoured Command Vehicle disguised as a GS truck - a wholly different subject.

H.

[Bill Murray]

Dammit, Hanno:

I knew that, just thought it was an interesting pic.
My Pat has been gone almost a week now and I am bored out of my skull. Watch for some more oddballs over the weekend.

Your friend

Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Kuno, I didn't think of that. I common thing to reduce glare in the desert apparently was to paint over the windows and throw sand over the wet paint, then wipe a small vision slot. But it could well be this huge sun visor had the same purpose - also see the Dodge D8A/T212 with a sun visor.

Once you know what to look for they pop up everywhere - here's another sun visor/anti-glare air recognition device (?) on a Morris-Commercial PU8 in the Western Desert in late 1941, next to a Matilda of 42nd Battalion, RTR (source: B.T. White, British Tank Markings and Names, p.24).