MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24-07-18, 22:55
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default M4 Medium Tank "Cookie" will return to Overloon war museum

All,

Good news! The M4 Medium Tank "Cookie", which is of significant historical value to the Netherlands, will return from Italy where it served as a Canadian memorial in Ortona since 2006.

It will be exchanged for an M4A4, which is the appropriate type used by the Canadian Army in Italy, and "Cookie" will return to the area where it was left after WW2. It has registration number USA 3033401, and was in service with the U.S. 7th Armored Division during the Battle of Overloon.

For more information, please see the attached Press release - Shermantank Cookie will return to Overloon.pdf

Hanno


13 June 1946, photo by Wiel van der Randen:
Click image for larger version

Name:	over021.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	61.5 KB
ID:	101254
Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/6a322c...c-003048944028


Ca.1946. The Overloon Museum was founded on the former battefield:
Click image for larger version

Name:	image011.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	37.6 KB
ID:	101256


1980s:
Click image for larger version

Name:	over023.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	62.1 KB
ID:	101255
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25-07-18, 08:01
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default

PS: read the thread Ortona Remembered for some background on Cookieís adventure in Italy

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7443
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25-07-18, 20:13
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default

Some more info on Cookie:
M4 Medium Tank, serial number 24871, registration number USA 3033401.
Assigned to 7th Armored Division, 31st Tank Battalion, Company C as Tank no. 13.
Put out of action during the Battle of Overloon, The Netherlands, between 30 September and 18 October 1944. Location: 2 to 3 km. to the west of the Oploosche dijk area in the hamlet called 't Vlak. Crew: none killed - tank was not hit but instead tilted in a ditch and was abandoned by the crew.
"Cookie" had been moved to Overloon Museum by 11 March 1947.

Sources:
http://www.7tharmddiv.org/docrep/overloon-tanks.htm
http://www.7tharmddiv.org/wwii-tank-serial-numbers.htm
http://www.7tharmddiv.org/overloon-cookie-returns.htm


And some more pictures:
Cookie pictured on 27 May 1946 at the former Overloon battlefield, by then the museum grounds.
Click image for larger version

Name:	356aa46862224c5413810fce3346fd442fea642944cd31878f4f20d2e3a77a09.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	248.7 KB
ID:	101333
Source: Nationaal Archief 2.24.01.03, 901-7696


Boys climb on Cookie just after WW2. In the early years the Overloon museum was not more than a collection of artefacts on the former battlefield.
Click image for larger version

Name:	79764904c2a9b50e79d0ccf8df3ff15707af9aa2619ed9aa14d9494f42bc627d.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	97.1 KB
ID:	101334
Source: Nationaal Archief, 2.24.01.09, 900-0425


1960s:
Click image for larger version

Name:	bhic.nl a86c45c2-45f9-11e3-8e79-634d7e8d23b3.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	131.2 KB
ID:	101335
Source: https://www.bhic.nl/memorix/images/s...e-237244c790f7
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-08-18, 05:50
jdmcm's Avatar
jdmcm jdmcm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Surrey, BC, CDN
Posts: 672
Default

Interesting to note the rails welded to the turret upper sides and what looks like a missing cupola, In service modification to hang extra kit from or post war to assist people climbing on it?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15-09-20, 11:03
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
Interesting to note the rails welded to the turret upper sides and what looks like a missing cupola, In service modification to hang extra kit from or post war to assist people climbing on it?
John, the rails on the turret can be seen in the earliest pictures of Cookie. At that point in time the exhibits were true battlefield relics with no alterations done to them.
So the rails are an in service modification.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15-09-20, 11:05
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default

Some more photos of Cookie:


1950's picture postcard:
Click image for larger version

Name:	37828796_1794576983954611_8891073333446049792_n.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	55.9 KB
ID:	116170


Most likely taken somewhere in the 1960s:
Click image for larger version

Name:	77318890_2601983053213996_5345074838388080640_n.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	84.9 KB
ID:	116169
Source: https://proxy.archieven.nl/0/6299426...14CEF5897CC3E2
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15-09-20, 16:14
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the river flats in a poor part of town
Posts: 2,523
Default

This story is about the practise of monuments as simple symbols without recognizing that individual tanks have important singular histories of their own. As I recall, a couple of strong personalities thought a tank is a tank is a tank, and Cookie's story in the Netherlands was undervalued when she was relocated to Italy.

Someone wanted a Sherman as a monument, and followed the path of least resistance to get one. By hook and by crook and by Golly, they were going to got themselves a monument. Supposedly that was going to be the end of the story. Can everyone hear the tinkle of ice in drinks behind the chatter of corporate donors, smell the well-perfumed crowd of onlookers, and hear as the conversation moves on to something else? Some people in some circles don't know what they don't know.

Except, unlike art museums and art dealers exchanging expensive paintings as commodities, there are other people who knew and cared more about what Cookie represented than someone getting a tank plonked down in a public place. I am very pleased the Dutch have been able to correct this mistake, and recover their historic piece.
__________________
Terry Warner

74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
70-08876 M38A1 ready for the road
53-71233 M100CDN trailer manufactured by MCI ready for the road

Wow! All three green beasties run!

Last edited by maple_leaf_eh; 15-09-20 at 16:32.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15-09-20, 18:11
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland - previously Suffolk
Posts: 437
Default

I agree with Terry !

David
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 15-09-20, 19:53
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 36
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcm View Post
Interesting to note the rails welded to the turret upper sides and what looks like a missing cupola, In service modification to hang extra kit from or post war to assist people climbing on it?
You can see that on more American M4s in wartime photos, the principal use seems to have been to hang bags and things off of. Finding photos of it online is somewhat difficult, but hereís one with a similar rail clearly visible:

Click image for larger version

Name:	M4_burning_leipzig_crop.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	495.8 KB
ID:	116191
(source)

And a full-length one along the hull side to boot.

Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 16-09-20 at 10:16. Reason: edited to attach photo
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15-09-20, 22:53
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hoofddorp, The Netherlands
Posts: 2,297
Default

Attached are some pictures I took a couple of weeks ago. Cookie is at the Overloon museum again, even though it's still partly dressed up as "Athena".
I am sure Covid interfered with the plans, as the return was kept quite silent and the tank is still in outside storage.

Let's hope it gets returned to it's original livery and markings soon....and let's hope they use the early museum pictures that Hanno posted to match the location, shape, size and font of the original markings!
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_2366.JPG   IMG_2367.JPG   IMG_2368.JPG  
__________________
Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW
BSA Folding Bicycle
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16-09-20, 21:57
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
MLU Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 11,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
This story is about the practise of monuments as simple symbols without recognizing that individual tanks have important singular histories of their own. As I recall, a couple of strong personalities thought a tank is a tank is a tank, and Cookie's story in the Netherlands was undervalued when she was relocated to Italy.

Someone wanted a Sherman as a monument, and followed the path of least resistance to get one. By hook and by crook and by Golly, they were going to got themselves a monument. Supposedly that was going to be the end of the story. Can everyone hear the tinkle of ice in drinks behind the chatter of corporate donors, smell the well-perfumed crowd of onlookers, and hear as the conversation moves on to something else? Some people in some circles don't know what they don't know.

Except, unlike art museums and art dealers exchanging expensive paintings as commodities, there are other people who knew and cared more about what Cookie represented than someone getting a tank plonked down in a public place. I am very pleased the Dutch have been able to correct this mistake, and recover their historic piece.
Terry, well put - but in itself the motives to establish the Ortona memorial were very honest, and it was no mean feat to realise it - see this thread: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7443

Sadly, the museum offered the wrong Sherman for this worthy cause: instead of selling an anonymous, but correct type of Sherman, they sold an inccorect type of Sherman and most importantly - a genuine battle relic

To make a long story short, "Committee Sherman tank Overloon" - a group of local enthusiasts - have corrected the museum management's mistake. First by making sure a proper tank memorial was established in the middle of Overloon village and outside the museum's influence, then they set to work to get Cookie back. They did an amazing job on both tanks
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 16-09-20, 22:15
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,074
Default Cookie in After the Battle Magazine

The story about Cookie and its return to Overloon was documented in the most recent No. 188 edition of After the Battle Magazine.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Ortona Sherman Swap [1].jpg
Views:	11
Size:	1.46 MB
ID:	116198 Click image for larger version

Name:	Ortona Sherman Swap [2].jpg
Views:	8
Size:	1.42 MB
ID:	116199
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17-09-20, 10:59
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 36
Default

Reading that, what I find odd is that the Overloon museum had the correct type of Sherman that they weren’t using, but sold the wrong type, that they were, to be a memorial in Italy.

But I guess this comes back to a common complaint about museums: a lot of them don’t seem to actually know much about what they have. (See, for example, comments by Mike Starmer on another forum about the repainting of British tanks at Bovington, using some random military-looking green paint from a DIY store.)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 17-09-20, 12:04
James P James P is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
Reading that, what I find odd is that the Overloon museum had the correct type of Sherman that they werenít using, but sold the wrong type, that they were, to be a memorial in Italy.

But I guess this comes back to a common complaint about museums: a lot of them donít seem to actually know much about what they have. (See, for example, comments by Mike Starmer on another forum about the repainting of British tanks at Bovington, using some random military-looking green paint from a DIY store.)


Hey, give them some credit for at least attempting to paint them in a "military looking" paint, see the paint shot all over the tanks at the CFB Borden museum to truly see how low the bar can be set.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 17-09-20, 12:16
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,074
Default Museums in General

For years I have been curious if other museums are as cavalier with their artifacts as military museums are? We know art museums don't display their collections outside for the birds to nest in and the kids to climb on but do the other museums loan and exchange their material like a kid with trading cards?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 17-09-20, 16:12
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hoofddorp, The Netherlands
Posts: 2,297
Default

Quote:
Reading that, what I find odd is that the Overloon museum had the correct type of Sherman that they werenít using, but sold the wrong type, that they were, to be a memorial in Italy.
At the time they sold Cookie, there was an ongoing conflict between the Overloon museum and the people from the Marshall museum collection. The M4A4 was in the Marshall museum collection, so if Overloon would have sold that one to Italy, than I am sure the conflict would only have gotten worse!

Thankfully the conflict has since been resolved and as far as I know Overloon now owns all vehicles previously in the Marshall collection.....which is the reason we have seen lot's of post-war vehicles being sold, in favour of the WW2 vehicles.

Alex
__________________
Chevrolet C8 cab 11 FFW
BSA Folding Bicycle
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 17-09-20, 19:32
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 36
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Hey, give them some credit for at least attempting to paint them in a "military looking" paint
His actual complaint was not so much that they took a military green from a DIY store, but that they have one of the worldís best collections of original British manuals, instructions and more for this kind of work, and didnít bother looking at them to see which colours the vehicles should have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
At the time they sold Cookie, there was an ongoing conflict between the Overloon museum and the people from the Marshall museum collection. The M4A4 was in the Marshall museum collection, so if Overloon would have sold that one to Italy, than I am sure the conflict would only have gotten worse!
Ah, that makes sense, yes. Better sell the one you own than one you donít.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17-09-20, 20:58
James P James P is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
His actual complaint was not so much that they took a military green from a DIY store, but that they have one of the worldís best collections of original British manuals, instructions and more for this kind of work, and didnít bother looking at them to see which colours the vehicles should have.


Ah, that makes sense, yes. Better sell the one you own than one you donít.
I see where you are going with this and can agree. Colours of paint can and does set folks hair on fire and as my restoration mentor David Crompton says "You put as much effort into making (paint?) something wrong as making it right". To that I add "there never seems to be enough time to do something right the first time..........but always time to do it right on the second go". Original reference material to work from are books on colours such as Real colors of WWII Armor https://ak-interactive.com/product/r...dated-version/ ) are a big leap at getting it right, the first time. That said the Borden museum vehicles look a hellish pea green and look as wrong as two boys kissing in my books.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Info wanted: Angus Macaulay, "C" Troop 87 Canadian Medium Battery RCA Hanno Spoelstra Your Relatives 3 30-04-18 18:12
Canadian War Museum's M4A4 "Forceful III" Patrick Johnson The Armour Forum 21 12-07-16 04:35
Petition to return the "Royal" title to the Air Force and Navy servicepub (RIP) The Sergeants' Mess 3 24-05-10 17:27
Maritime Command Museum "Admiralty House" Bofors Brad Mills The Gun Park 4 26-09-07 22:01
Canada to return "clawbacks" to disabled veterans Vets_Dottir The Sergeants' Mess 0 31-10-03 02:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016