Morris PU: BEF Dunkirk? Unit, registration?

[Ron Pier]

Aint she sweet. I remember John and Mary Worthing had one when I first met them, well over 20 years ago. I think it's still featured in there canvas adds.

Ron

[Ian McCallum]

Ron,

One in the same vehicle! John lost interest in the vehicle in the mid 90's and relinquished the vehicle in 2001 to a David Herbert in Suffolk requiring a number of issues to be addressed. Terry barn stored it for future project material and I bought it from him in 2003. As far as I know this is still the only restored example, unless someone knows different? Will be taking it to Guernsey and Dunkirk next year as part of the commemorations.

Ian

[Alex van de Wetering]

Stephen, Malcolm

Very interesting to hear the story of your relatives! Somehow we seem to forget that not all veterans were taking part in D-day or the battle in Italy. 5 years going from POW camp to POW camp must have been quite an experience and I wonder how these guys managed to follow the progress of the war...during these years.

Rich, at first...great picture and again it amazes me how you guys manage to tell the rear of the Morris apart from a WOC or Humber (Ron!). It does show that my model needs a few extra plates added , but given the fact that I also forgot to fit the step on the inside tailgate...

Should have engaged brain before responding and checked census numbers myself!

Ian, nevermind....at least we can now enjoy some pictures of the terrific WOC.

Alex

[cletrac (RIP)]

I think this one is from around Dunkirk but I'm not sure if it's a Morris or not.

[Ron Pier]

I actually think it is a Morris Dave. It's very grainy when blown up...but still those tell tale stengthening plates seem to be there?

Ian. It's great to own a rare one off vehicle, as I do with my Morris PU8/4....But it's lonely, as there's no one else to talk to..... Fancy a hug?
Ron

[Ian McCallum]

Ron,

Not so sure about the hug and what the wife might think? Not quite as lonely as you may think however for not more than 7 miles away a colleague is restoring a Humber Snipe PU!
Original plan was to have it ready for next years commemorations so we could present the pair but may be a bit ambitious given current status. He is looking for both cab and rear body canvas frames, although these can be made from mine as a pattern plus both driver and passenger seats, know of any going spare?

Ian

[chrisgrove]

The problem with 4RNF is that 50 Div was a Motor Division and had (at least some) different numbers from a standard Infantry Division. Unless Dick Taylor has produced one in Vol 2 of 'Warpaint' (which I have not yet got), none of my references give the numbers for a 1940 Motor Division, though people seem to agree that 4RNF had 18 on red.
The PU in this pic should have its 20 on green, as representing the Brigade HQ of 144 Infantry Brigade.

Chris

Oops; my first post on here and I expected it to appear much higher up , on Page 1. I expect you can work out which pic I was referring to.

[Rich Payne]

Hello Chris. As you say, I don't think there's much argument about the '18' for 4 RNF as there are plenty of captioned photographic records which clearly indicate the unit, as does the concentration of Norton outfits.

According to Hodges & Taylor, the '20' appeared on brown and would thus indicate 145 Bde who were certainly captured at Cassel.

[Dennis Gelean (RIP)]

Has any one made a model of a Canadian Salvation Army canteen truck,used in
England and Europe, Holland (English made) or restored one?

[chrisgrove]

Hi Rich

Don't know why I went for green - I should have double checked before I went on line!! As you say, HQ 145 Bde, not 144, though my reference was Malcolm Bellis combined with Hodges/Taylor!
Chris

[Ron Pier]

Ian. I've just been sent this picture by my friend Rory. I don't know if you've seen it or if it's been posted before.

A captured WOC1. Ron

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Ron,

Yes I have seen this one before. There is also another one I believe taken in Greece, of the vehicle upside down in a ditch as a result of officer attempting to drive it. There are two 'abandoned' vehicle shots of the WOC1 during the evacuation that I am trying to source a decent copy of. One is a front view with canvas off and contents strewn around with what appears to be a dock building in the background. I obtained a poor photocopy with the vehicle which indicates it comes from a French language book. The other actually featured on the MLU site some time ago and showed the WOC1 plus others abandoned on a quayside with again buildings as a backdrop. Any info as to where these are published, or any other WOC shots would be gratefully appreciated.

Ian

[Rich Payne]

Ian, your first picture is Calais. I've just dug out François de Lannoy's 'Dunkerque 1940' (which does include a bit on Calais) and it shows the quay from another direction.



...and look what we've got lurking in the middle...



Is this the shot that you've seen before ?

All these photographs are credited to the Bundesarchiv.

You'll know the picture that follows of course but I thought that you might like to see the period publication that it appeared in.





Rich

[Ian McCallum]

Rich,

Many thanks. Now know where it was and what book it's in, allI have to do now is find one! Thanks also and yes, the quayside shot is the one I remeber from a previous posting. Also not aware of the Motor Cycle article although the WOC1 photo was featured by Bart in his earlier editions of Fighting Vehicles. Anyone got any more photo's out there of a WOC1!!??

Ian

[Rich Payne]

De Lannoy's book can be found in the UK

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Bo...tn%3Ddunkerque

Whether it's worth the £25 odd depends on how fanatical you are about the 1940 campaigns (I am !)

This sequence of pictures is all viewable on-line at the Bundesarchiv :-

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cros...h/_1258156145/

I'm not sure what the procedure is for obtaining high res copies.

Rich

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Rich,

Many thanks. Had a quick attempt to get into the bundesarchiv photos without too much success. However of the 34 photos I did find for Calais 1940, one was of a WOC1. Unfortunately the angle and debris on the bonnet hide any serial number, but its definately a Ford this time.

Ian

[Rich Payne]

Glad to see that you're still finding pictures Ian.It probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the mods split off the WOC1 stuff to a thread of its own.

Do you know if those vehicles in Calais would have been with the Rifle Brigade or KRRCs ?

I have had another look through my bookcase and I think that I've found a Dunkirk picture as well. It's from Pallud's 'Blitzkrieg à l'Ouest' which is rather different from his English language equivalent.



I wonder if the the triangle on the N/S wing is an elongated version of 1st infantry Division ?

The photograph is credited to the French ECP archive. I'm determined to get there one day.

Rich

[Ian McCallum]

Rich,

Many thanks again, an excellent representation of the chaos on the beaches and with a WOC1 right in the foreground. Unfortunately I have no indication of what units the vehicles in the Calais photos would have belonged to. Clarity of photos seen so far makes it difficult to see any unit insignia. Of interest the first photo I published of the WOC1 in Calais you can see the serial number on the bonnet side which post dates the manufacture of mine. Reference your latest posting unfortunately again I cannot help. I can't even see the triangle you refer too, serial would be really nice to see also!

Ian

[Rich Payne]

I see that 'Pen & Sword' are using the first WOC1 picture as a book cover...

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1788

With a bit of luck it will give the photo credit as well.

[Rich Payne]

I had the pleasure of chatting with Ian in Dunkirk yesterday. There was a fascinating collection of 1940ish British vehicles.

His Ford really is superbly turned out and the V8 sounds most impressive amongst the straight engines.

[chalky]

Yes , the British vehicles in Dunkirk for the 70th looked fantastic , when all bunched up together in the side streets it could have been 1940. Such a pleasure to see ALL British vehicles and not a jeep or American paratrooper in sight.
Shame the real British Army didn't send a few representatives over though, I know they're busy but they could have spared a section.

[Ian McCallum]

Rich, thanks for your comments, really nice to catch up with fellow MLU members. Just had to post this picture to prove we got as close to the water as possible.

Chalky, most certainly it was fantastic and I cannot remember a convoy of purely 1940 period British vehicles all together in one place, let alone on convoy with 4 period outriders all under the control of the Frence Gendarmes who were great. In total we managed just over 700 miles, door to door, and were inland as far as Le Paradis where the Norfolk's were massacred plus took in the evening ceremony at the Menin Gate Ypres.

[chalky]

Whats the story with the WOC1 . They were built in Britain but why did Ford UK use the American front end .

[Ian McCallum]

Originally Posted by chalky

Whats the story with the WOC1 . They were built in Britain but why did Ford UK use the American front end .

Hi Chalky, You are quite correct re the front end and hopefully this will explain why. Late in 1939 Ford at Dagenham submitted a prototype to the War Office for evaluation, which due to the urgency was approved within two weeks! The design was based on a modified American commercial Model 01C chassis that was already being imported and bodied in the UK for our commercial needs. The 'cobbled' submission was designated WOC1 (WO for War Office, C for Commercial and 1 for first type). This incorporated the imported chassis and as far forward as the bulkhead was largely identical to the standard commercial model. It had the American lockhead hydraulic braking system, not to be seen on many lighter UK Ford models until post war and was fitted with the British 21 stud V8 engine. This was fitted with an open cab manufactured by Briggs Motor Bodies and the only stipulation was that the chassis had to accept a standard War Office pattern 8 cwt. well type body, (as also fitted to a Humber and Morris) variant. The first order was placed in October 1939 under contract V3615 for 1000 vehicles, followed by contract V3730 for a further 1000 vehicles on 17th. November. Due to America 'going neutral' during this period some components initally came through Ford Canada although quantity production of the chassis commenced at Dagenham on 20th. December 1939 with all vehicles being delivered by 24th. July 1940 and no further orders being placed. My vehicle retains its original number of Z4128683 which was the 489'th vehicle off the line within the first contract of 1000.

Ian

[Rich Payne]

I've never seen evidence of WOC1s captured in france being used by the Wehrmacht but a current ebay auction shows that they must have had at least two. The pictures are captioned on the reverse as 'Concarneau' (Brittany)

Presumably converted to FFW ?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Interesting pictures Ron, especially with that Wireless frame. There is another pic of a WOC in Wehrmacht service in Jochen Vollerts book "Britische LKW im Dienste der Whrmacht" as well. Will try to scan the picture in the next few days.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Scanned from: "Britische LKW im Dienst der Wehrmacht" Jochen Vollert, Tankograd

[Rich Payne]

This looks to be close to the church of St. Eloi in Dunkirk, near to where I photographed Ian's truck. In fact, I think that he drove along here.



I can't see a formation sign but there appears to be an unreadable AoS plate. I wonder if the lack of formation sign on all these WOC1s is because they were used by GHQ and there was never a BEF GHQ formation sign, the only clue being the bar on the usually missing AoS plate ?

[Ian McCallum]

Rich,

Where do you manage to find all these great shots, certainly recognise the church, just can't quite figure ourt the orientation without checking a street plan.

Are my eyes playing tricks or is there another vehicle behind the WOC? You can quite easily define the cab and rear tilt frame devoid of any canvas but there also appears to be another 'tilted' vehicle beyond it. Also interesting as this is the first photo I have seen of the bridge plate painted in this position.

Ian

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ian McCallum

Where do you manage to find all these great shots

Ian,

Check other forums like Axis History Forum > Beute- and Umbauwagen. Here's the latest crop.

Regards,
Hanno