Ontario armour

[Tboss]

Looking for information on the Russell-knight armoured cars created and operated here in Toronto. Any books, literature or experts out there?? Where are they on display?? Thanks

[Tboss]

The war museum in Ottawa web site search service was searched. There was no reply to the compound word or either word used singularly. Am I correct to assume they have no reference to the Russell-Knight armoured car in any form whatso-ever??
Your assitance is appreciated on this one!!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"Tboss",

Please use your real name on this forum.

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN ARMOURED CORPS is the only reference to the Russell-Knight armoured car I could find on-line.

HTH,
Hanno

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tboss
The war museum in Ottawa web site search service was searched. There was no reply to the compound word or either word used singularly. Am I correct to assume they have no reference to the Russell-Knight armoured car in any form whatso-ever??

Tboss,
Try the following link, it is a history and background of Russell, with brief mention of the armoured cars;

http://www.legionmagazine.com/featur...ions/02-01.asp

Richard

[Tboss]

Thank you very much for the legion reference and attachment. It adds more details to the man behind the Car company, so to speak. The reference to a "big" number of produced and running armoured cars is tantalizing. Again, anyone have leads on the armoured cars that Russell produced?? Any academic work out there? Did I miss an old publication of some sort? I'm going to have to find some of those russell armoured car photos again.

[gcrossley]

Hi,

I think you are referring to the Russell/Jeffrey cars manufactured for the Eaton Motor Machine Gun Battery in 1915. 40 were built, based on a Jeffrey Quad chassis, with dual driving controls. The chassis was US built, but the armoured bodies may have been made by the Russell Motor Car company in Toronto. The US army also had an armoured car made on this chassis, but the superstructure was quite different. There was also one partly-armoured Scouting Car called the Russell-Knight. The one picture that has been published shows an open touring car with an armoured hood and low sides to the back of the driver's seats.

The entire outfit, consisting of 40 Armoured Cars, the Scout Car, headquarters, supply and workshop lorries were shipped to England in late 1915. They were destined to sit in a depot there until the summer of 1917 when the entire outfit was turned over to the India Office. Before the vehicles were shipped, 20 of the Armoured Cars were sent to Ireland to serve with British Forces and the remainder sent to India. 16 Armoured Cars made it to India, but the ship SS Shirala carrying the Scouting Car, 4 Armoured Cars, and all the spare parts, was torpedoed in the the English Channel on 2 July 1918. The Armoured Cars served out their lives in Ireland and India, but with no spares they soon wore out and were discarded.

References:

1. War Cars - British Armoured Cars in the First World War - David Fletcher
2. Article by John F Wallace MC - Armour Bulletin Winter 1990
3. Dragons of Steel - John F Wallace MC - Chapter 1

Here is one link with a picture of the Armoured Car from a member of this forum.

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/jeffrey_armd_car.htm

Most of the published photographs of the cars in Canada are from the T Eaton Company Archives.

Hope it helps,

Gord Crossley
The Fort Garry Horse Museum and Archives

[Tboss]

Hello Gord:
Many thanks for the post. The photo was extremely useful. Well, the Photo of the Jeffrey is not the armoured vehicle I have been used to viewing. Over the decades I have viewed numerous photos of the neighbourhood from the WW1 period. Because I live next to the last British fort built in North America, I really did not jump up at seeing the armoured vehicles up and down the street. The Russel Factory was/is on Dufferin and KIng. That is a very short hop down to the old fort itself. While I could have easily printed off prints decades ago, I was absolutely sure that the Russell armoured cars were documented to the nines from here to London England. Even the scout car description conveys a different plasticity to what I viewed in the photos. While the year is correct for the Jeffrey, it seems that Russell may have produced one off prototypes that ran about in road tests. Run the armoured car through the neighbourhood down to the fort, perhaps set up a test fire, etc. for the military boys. During the CNE weeks, I imagine the Russell guys interested in parading the armoured cars for benefit of the interested female onlookers. Ladies or escorts take a few snapshots of the pretty car and uniforms. Perhaps test drives included. So, did Jeffries get shipped to England/India or Russells? Or both. Now I have to think of where to search for those old negatives? How many armoured cars did Jeffry sell to Canada? I also have to search out a source for your three references, now. Great Post Gord, Thanks!!
Ross

[gcrossley]

Hi,

There were 40 of the large Armoured Cars produced, and one of the Scouting Cars. The scouting car was based on the Russell-Knight open tourer.

Prior to all vehicles being shipped to England, they were shown around Toronto. One photo shows them at the Exhibition grounds in September 1915 (PAC Photo 71673). The vehicles were all shipped to England in December 1915.

The term Russell and Jeffrey refer to the same vehicle, when speaking of the large Armoured Cars. Russel-Knight refers to the scouting car.

When you find the negatives/photos of Armoured Cars that you refer to, you could send me images and I can identify them for you.

These are very interesting vehicles and need to be better documented than they are. It would be nice to see your photos if they are of these vehicles.

There were other types of Armoured Car produced for or in Canada durign the war. The Autocar used by the 1st Auto MG Brigade was first seen in Montreal and later shipped overseas. One survives in the Canadian War Museum collection. The other type was the Packard, of which at least one was produced in 1914 for the Borden MG battery. The only photograph of it I know was taken in Ottawa.

If you wish to communicate with me off-line, you can use my email link found in the Museum section of the FGH webpage at: http://www.fortgarryhorse.ca

Gord Crossley
The Fort Garry Horse Museum and Archives

[Tboss]

Hello Gord:
Again, Many thanks for the second post. You have to understand that I assumed that the armour production in Canada was better documented than, say to compare, steam locomotive or street railway production. I have read many articles over the decades about steam locomotive technology and production. Even today new material, or more detailed material is published about early locomotive and waggon manufacturers. Now, I attended the local high school closest to the Russel Factory. Not a single pedagogue even peeped that the factory still in existence was the Russell factory or, let alone, what it produced. In fact, can anybody prove that any curriculum documented canadian armour production in Canada in WW1? Older citizens were the source of info for me. While I had the pleasure of viewing their old photographs, it did not occur to me that the armoured vehicles zooming around South Parkdale in their images were, in documented fact, armoured cars of international mystery. At that time I could easily have acted. I was trained in photography and worked at a custom photography lab. Now this neighbourhood is the lowest home-owner occupied neighbourhood in all of Ontario. Between death and killer (city) planners, the concept of homeowners (especially the old veterans) has exponentially vanished in South Parkdale. Who knows where these homeowners and their family photo collections have vanished. Anyway Gord, I believe I can still track down some images. But it will be in a matter of months. The plasticity of form of the Jeffrey image that you graciously attached is not that of the armoured vehicles that I viewed. (Gord, is this early Alzheimers?) Perhaps Russell produced prototypes that were running about the British (Canadian) Stanley Barracks Fort but never formally or legally accepted/purchased. I met an European Engineer who once produced Eagle Highway coaches over there. Over here, he talked buses as fast as he produced them out in MIssissauga. Why not this guy Russell. As a newly minted Major out to make an innovative military reputation, Russell could have produced or rebuilt armoured cars in his factory as his fancy took him. Especially during the summer CNE, the new fangled popular cameras could easily have captured Russell armoured cars on film. These were with fully-armoured body and with a full turret. They did not have an open, seating concept like a hummer or willys. Any tips for me as to where in Toronto any of your three references can be borrowed, purchased or viewed. Is there a vehicle specialist out there in any of the public-purse museums? Anyone worth contacting? Gord, What is the earliest date that a Russell was actually documented as existing? Gord, I never got any positive buzz that an armoured Russell of any condition is still in existence out there!! Perhaps, an old stable or garage in Toronto or India retains a........ . . .
Thanks Gord.
Ross

[gcrossley]

Hi Ross,

You may be able to find the Fletcher book (ISBN 0-11-290439-4) for sale on-line somewhere. Dragons of Steel (ISBN 1-896182-04-0) should be available in local libraries. Another book which makes some brief mention of the vehicles is 'The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, an Illustrated History" (ISBN 1-896941-17-6) which should also be available in libraries. I have reference to an article" The First Armoured Cars - A very Canadian Story" in Canadian Defence Quartery, Vol 11, No 3, Winter 1981-82. Your librarian should be able to help you find a copy. Yet another reference that includes some text and photograps is "Armored Car" by R.P. Hunnicutt (ISBN 089141777X)

I would say it is highly unlikely the any of these vehicles survive. There are still a number of Jeffery-Quad trucks around and there is a replica/mockup of the US version of the car in Pancho Villa State Park in New Mexico. This vehicle had two turrets instead of the single one on the Canadian vehicles.

Good luck with your research.

Gord

[Tboss]

Another thanks for your reply!
Checking the local universities, etc., around Ontario, I did not find listed that year of Canadian Defense Qurterly:81. Is there an on-line source for that particular year of CDQ? Any spot that I should physically go to in Toronto. York, Toronto University Library, some private institutional library??
Now, looking through some old Russell shots of mine, I note that various street railway equipment is attributed to a Russell Car Company. Is this our King/Dufferin location producing street railway maintenance vehicles?
The book "Made up to Standard: Thomas Alexander Russell" is available for purchase. Anyone reader know if it just reproduces auto photos, or does the author document/cover the armoured cars and railroad equipment?
Gord, Some Russell workers are sure to have retired back to the British Isles. Any overseas readers run across data on the employees/engineers employed by Russell, stuff like diaries, autobiographies, albums? Anything like that here in Canada?
Gord, that huge chassis armour beast at the Pancho Villa Museum is not what I remember on Dufferin St. Who reproduced that Jeffrey-Quad monster for the museum? I did not see any data on the repro armour on the web. Can I assume that it has a modern engine and is run about for the parades and tourists??
The main line rail probably spurred right into the Russell plant. Jeffrey chassis could have been shipped by rail flats right into the Russell plant, for tinkering.
Still searching.......

[gcrossley]

I can't give you any advice on libraries in Ontario. If you are searching on-line, make sure you spell DEFENCE correctly. Most should have the older issues in their collection, but it is unlikely that issues from 1981 would be on-line. It is best to call them directly.

The Russell book you refer to may also be available in libraries. I does show up at the University of Toronto Library on-line search.
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/index.html

All I know about the replica at the Pancho Vila museum is what appears on the web. The museum itself should be able to answer your questions about that particular vehicle. The Canadian Jeffrey/Quad/Russell was a large vehicle like the US one, except it had a centre turret instead of a high superstructure, as shown in the photo in my earlier post.

You can find plenty of information about the Quad truck chassis on the web by Google-ing "jeffrey quad" and "nash quad". (Jeffrey was bought out by Nash).

We will have to wait until you find your old photos for any further positive identification of what you remember.

Good luck with your search,

Gord

[Tboss]

Thank you for your reply! Yes, bad typos and bad grammer mix with bad spelling. Yes, many times a web search I initiated has failed because of the above. FYI- Still have not run down an image: but hope to this summer.
Thanks!!
R.

[Tboss]

Another question Gord.
The English service personnel were zooming around Imperialist Russia in various armoured units, especially before Trotsky and Lenin consolidated military control. Now, it was suggested to me that there is no reason to assume that only Rolls Royce chassis cars were shipped there, exclusively. If our local boy was shipping large street railway units around North America, he was as able to ship smaller dimensional packages, i.e. armoured vehicles to England or elsewhere. Would Churchill and other top brass in England receive data about the military activities of their Toronto units in Stanley Barracks? Why invest money for a few prototypes to entertain the local yokels at Stranley Barracks and the lady visitors to the CNE? What cash would the local boys have to spend? It seems as likely to me that an impetus for creating an assembly line for armoured vehicles would be financial. Whack out prototype versions that are poked at by the locals at Stanley Barracks, while sending samples to Churchill in England or the Czar for some quick cash. Was not Churchill a conceptual mover of armour? Was not the Czar desperate for armoured vehicles? Production capacity here in Toronto, demand over there. Gosh Gord, sounds like something clase to NAFTA. Any comments that relate to documentation of the above???
Appreciate your thoughts!!
Ross

[gcrossley]

Ross,

I can't offer any comments on the ideas you present, except that it seems highly unlikley that Britain would require any vehicles from Canada.

The British had a surplus of armoured cars as there was little employment for them on the Western Front. The 40 Eaton Battery Jeffrey/Quad/Russell cars languished in England for two years before someone found a use for them in Ireland and India.

The British used a number of types of armoured and semi-armoured cars in Russia, and they are well documented.

This Russian web page has descriptions, photos and numbers of vehicles used by the Belgian and British Squadrons, and the Russian units.

http://wio.ru/tank/for-rus.htm

http://wio.ru/tank/ww1ba.htm

You can find a good listing of the various types of British Armoured cars here:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/G...rVehicles.html

This is the main page. If you look under Canada, you will find images of most of the types of vehicles used by Canadians in both wars.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/


As for the rest, we will have to wait until the photographs surface.

Gord

[Tboss]

Thank you for the effort put into your reply! The web references were checked out. None of the images were close to what I have viewed. The closest topology was of the Pierce-Arrow Wolseley. Mind you, I was impressed with the vaiety of plasticity seen in the early a.c.
How did Autocar of Pennsylvania sell their a.c in Canada? Is there any literature/research about the early shills and touts that the yankee prodeucers used to clinch sales? Was this an early case of across border price dumping? Is there any documentation of the Russell travelling south to visit the yanks?
Loose end: In the Locker-Lampson data it refers to a bulk sale. Russia-Reference is also made to a substantial number of a.c. that are not named or listed. Is there a "junior" historian gestault problem with the Russins? Even today, military sites refuse to list Ukraine are an armour producer. Yet today Ukraine pumps out armour/motors and exports tons of it. The analogy is that some web sites may be too loose with their Russin definition. The big territory and changes in government around WW1 bode problems in comprehension/documentation. Was armour delivered to the Czar? The white army, the red army, the ukrainian government, and so forth. Who is them - Russins? - speculating on Russell exports.
I wish to make a visit to the armour museum near Barrie. They now have a nice promotional sign on the big 400 highway. Do you have any names that should be asked for, looked up or called? Yep, a first visit.
Look have a great summer! I have image homework to look up for you! Big thanks for facilitating research on the Russell!
Ross

[Tboss]

Hi Gord:
Any Information on the Polish Army Camp operated in Ontario back then, around Niagara-on-the-Lake. Also, the 40 Eaton order cars seem very close. Was the complete order identical, or there are several "models"??
Hope to chat more soon!
Thanks

[gcrossley]

Ross,

All 40 Eaton cars were of the same pattern, large turreted vehicles on the Jeffrey Quad chassis. The Scout car was, as mentioned earlier, an open Russel-Knight tourer with an armoured hood and partial front doors.

I do not know anything about the Polish army in Niagara, but there are several web references available, like

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-Canada/lepan.html

For more, just enter 'camp niagara' (or 'niagara camp') and 'polish' in Google and away you go.

Gord