25 Pounder info needed.

[rob love]

Last year, when I was at the Calgary gun show, a young fellow came up to me and offered m\to sell me some artillery stuff. They turned out to be 2 tool rolls for the 25 pounder, and the canvas for the limber. I purchased them and got reimbursed by the museum, so they are now their property. Perhaps a lack of foresight on my part but I really did not expect to get a 25 pounder. Anyway, here are some shots of the two tool rolls. I can confirm that the part number of CM 1541 is correct for the smaller one as that is the part number in the manual. The larger tool roll is part number CM 1598. Although the pouch I show does not denote 17 pounder as well, perhaps it predates the 17? The manual lists it as being for both.

[Private_collector]

Rob, your smaller roll has the same two letter at bottom, if my sight is correct.
Can you confirm it is 'P.J', or do you think something else?

[rob love]

Positive it is PJ. Perhaps a textile company somewhere that got the contract for these?

[Private_collector]

That's excellent news, thanks Rob.

[Private_collector]

Having been let down by ANOTHER sandblaster one time too many, the best option to ensure the job gets done properly.....or done at all, is to do it yourself.

Crude but moderately effective, with over 75% of used sand being collected for recycling.
The rest went into surrounding ground, and into my pockets......apparently.




I'm yet to finish the pull rod for the ratchet, and make the adjustable fitting that attaches upper end to the silver lever. Something like on the ends of the CMP brake rods should do nicely, if I can modify it.

[Private_collector]

Thanks to Jacques Reed, who graciously gave his time and effort to make me a second brass bush for the brake cross shaft, the 25pdr axle assembly is now soooo close to finished.

Only one small piece left to find. That being the linkage thingy that connects the brake lever rod between ratchet and the hand brake lever (see below, right side). I've not seen one of these for sale, ever. One will show up somehow, somewhere, sometime, or I will have to make one. I think the display gun I take my measurements from may have one I can inspect and cheat off, though i dont really fancy making what will be an inferior looking item.

[Euan McDonald]

Does it look like a missing link?

[Private_collector]

Yes Euan, that's the little bugger I'm after.

[Private_collector]

The gun project just got a reprieve from being mothballed for a while, thanks to a genuine 25pdr spares box via Rob Nixon in the UK. Thanks Rob....again!

She's a little rough in general, but I look forward to the challenge of restoring it to match my tool box. So far, all the screws have come out successfully, BUT in some locations screws appear to have been replaced by flat broad headed nails!?!?

It's because of these nails, that I was forced to distort the lid hinges to remove them. Now they are exposed, I can get a pincer on them for removal. If possible, they will be replaced by screws identical to the majority of fixings. Perhaps they were there from manufacture but I hate them! The webbing handles have been redone at some stage, as the metal strips holding them on look very amateurish indeed. The screws for those are not a match for the others on the box either. I will probably try to improve on the appearance, by fashioning another set of fixings with more appropriate looking screws.

Can't say I fathom why so many coats of paint have been applied, nor why someone went to the extraordinary lengths or puttying over majority of the screw heads. In my mind they would be better seen as a feature, and part of the detail.

I have heaps of the same canvas used on the tool box, and when I first made the deal to buy this box, I hunted down the guy who made me the custom sized, vegetable tanned, leather strip to secure the canvas cover to edges of the lid. It actually arrived a couple of days before the box got here (which was today).

Metal parts will be sandblasted then blued. Timber will be sanded mechanically after a liberal costing of paint stripper to most of the wood. I can see I'll be using a few wipes of wood filler, while trying my hardest to retain detail of the timber jointing.

[rnixartillery]

Tony,

I'm happy it arrived safely, That new postage service does save a few quid but following the tracking details certainly takes a bit of do'in !

Rob.................rnixartillery.

Ah ps, the metal strips holding the webbing handles are correct and yes quite crude.

[Private_collector]

Well, in that case I won't muck with them, Rob.
What about the use of wide head nails instead of screws, in some places. Is that something that was original too? I'm hoping not, but if so, I may need to rethink replacing them with screws.

[rnixartillery]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Well, in that case I won't muck with them, Rob.
What about the use of wide head nails instead of screws, in some places. Is that something that was original too? I'm hoping not, but if so, I may need to rethink replacing them with screws.

Now they should be slotted countersunk screws !

Rob...............rnixartillery.

[Private_collector]

This is getting interesting. After I removed one of the timber lid strengthening pieces (heavily affected by wood rot & filled), and a large portion of the canvas cover, I made a discovery about what I thought were nails helping hold the brackets on. They aren't nails, that's for sure. There is a corresponding, but larger, flat section on the back of them. They must be original, because the canvas surely has never been off before, and these sit beneath that canvas layer. For some bizarre reason they must have chosen to use these in manufacture. Take a look for yourselves.

First photo is the top side of box lid, after canvas stripped back. You can clearly see five round metal surfaces.

Those correspond to two in each lid hinge, and one at rear of the latch. What a lot of effort when screws would have done fine. Especially if the ones I've been trying to get out are anything to go by! Now I'm in a dilema. I cannot simply slap the hinges back down on the....whatever they are, and I don't want to obliterate them. Might have to sleep on that.

Another curious component is the box corner braces. This too is an odd design. I guess they must have had good reason to stamp them with a raised portion to take countersunk screws, but damned if I know it. The simple brackets on my tool box would have been easier to make surely? The metal is noticably thinner on this box, so maybe the stamped (or perhaps embossed would be a better description) surface is to compensate for reduced overall bracket thickness, which would be too thin for rebate to take the countersunk screws!

[rob love]

Many of the British style chests use rivets for part of the retention of things like the rope handle blocks, hinges and hasps. In some cases, it was to prevent opening a locked box by simply removing some of the screws.

I would agree that the stamped corners would be to make them thicker for the use of the flat headed screws. It may have been a way to save metal. If you think about it, how many miles of metal strip twice the thickness would have been used otherwise to build crates. I have a large number of the bren chests here, and they simply used the heavier metal with countersunk holes for the corners.

[Private_collector]

That all adds up then, Rob.

My intention is to retain that rivet system, in appearance anyway. Because I've pulled the hinges over those rivets, to get them free, they won't serve their function, but I can still keep them looking right. I will shave a tiny bit more from the holes in hinges where those holes were attached with the rivet. Then they should go back together without force, and not look too far 'wrong'.

Yesterday I chose a new piece of timber to make a pair of stiffening braces for top of the lid. I believe it's some type of oak, possibly Tasmanian. Thickness is correct, but width will require cutting down. The orignal timber braces were not healthy. One far worse than the other, but if making one, might as well make both. The original/s will be filed away for referring to in any future need.

The box and lid are now stripped back to either bare timber or initial thin coat of color. They have to dry well, before I do further work on them. Next stage is filling imperfections. I intend to try and save some original markings stamped on lower edge of both short sides. Should be easier to read once I sand there.....very lightly!

I've ordered the three types of countersunk, slot head, wood screws that were originally used. The total cost, including shipping is $77.00AUD, but that is partly due to the 'job lots' of each being in excess of quantity I need for this particular project, and partly because they are coming from UK. They'll come in handy elsewhere, so I don't worry about $$$/£££ there.

Tonight, for want of something else to do, I made the template to cut the replacement canvas lid cover. I have heaps of the same canvas used on the tool box, so they will match. I will use same font for creating stencilling also. Didn't find any stencilling on this box. That's probably because it had 1,000 layers of badly applied paint, of several colors.


I'll post some photos of the box in it's bare state tomorrow evening.

[Private_collector]

Sorry about not posting the photos when I indicated I would. I've had an issue arise, that took priority.

The canvas lid cover did indeed get cut, and it's now been finished. The leather strap also in the photo, will go around the edge of the lid to secure the canvas. The manufacture of this box is quite different to the tool box I worked on some months ago. There is about a 1/2" gap between lid and box. This is because the thicker part of the hinges sit between the box & lid, instead of outside rear, as was the case with tool box. Therefore, 1/2" gap! Which I don't like, personally. Too bad, that's how it is, so I've gotta deal with it. Secondly, securing strap isn't recessed into the lid as far as tool box, making it tricky to make a satisfactory canvas cover. You will notice a rectangular hole in my canvas. That's to slip over the securing strap. The original wasn't like that, but if I copied that way 100% there would be an ugly gap in the lower 'skirt' of the canvas. Having already said there is the 1/2" gap, I didn't want to have any break in canvas to expose said gap. Hence the strap poking through my canvas. I think it looks OK.

The box took an awful lot of filling, to get rid of the cracks and surface blemishes. The large crack I had previously filled with wood glue, and had to remove a few millimetres depth of that to have sufficient purch for the filler.

It took several, increasingly shallower, applications of wood filler, before I was happy to proceed to the next step.

While waiting for the various layers of filler to harden, I straightened and blasted the brackets and locking latch. I found my bottle of gun blue, which I use for etching and darkening the steel parts, was considerably emptier than I had expected. As a result, I could only make a token effort with treating the brackets. I'll get more tomorrow, on my way to Nambour.


To be continued....

[Private_collector]

Finally satisfied with the filling, two coats of primer were applied......then almost entirely sanded off again, once dried. This showed some smaller defects not previously seen. NB: I'm due for new spectacles soon, maybe that played a part in missing the finer nicks! Another two primer coats later, I was satisfied with the result.

As indicated earlier, I enlarged the holes in brackets where the rivets had been (still are, in the timber), so they could remain and become a feature instead of a pain to remove. It would be a shame to do away with those. They won't have any strength any more, but the screws will be sufficient to do the job, I hope. You will note the screw hole at top of the hinge is a long way off alignment. I think those (both sides are same, unfortunately) should be plugged with dowels and redrilled to correct alignment. That will be fun.

Almost forgot I'd already made the tray for this box, then when I remembered it, couldn't find the bloody thing for about ten minutes. The welding doesn't look any better than I thought it was, either.

Finally, this is how the canvas cover will look, once installed. The lid needs to be sanded and painted before that happens. The replacement timber braces haven't been cut to corect size yet. That may be done next weekend.

[Private_collector]

The majority of metal components are now finished and ready for use.

The metal plates that hold the carrying handles in place have not had the treatment yet, because I don't know if I will use the tatty originals or make new ones.

Not having the equipment or skills to manufacture the end for my handbrake rod, I have to find another way of achieving that. A short search on internet turned up the following part. The thread on lower end (where silver bolt is sticking out) is too wide for use, so I plan to find a suitable bold to insert firmly, cut flush with the botttom of the linkage, then drill & tap to the correct thread I need. Overall length of the part is almost a perfect match for the original, so once finished it should look OK.

The spare parts box has had an application of wiping putty, which has now been wet sanded, in the shower last night! I'll reprime it this afternoon.

Apart from going on with making new pair of timber lid braces, and some painting, that's about all I can do for now. I'm still waiting on arrival of my new screws (3 different sizes). They will have the heads slightly sanded, before three coats of gun blue, same as the other metal parts had.

[Private_collector]

Got the days tasks finished early, so got paint on the spares box carrier, the box lid, and inside the box itself. Only the exterior of the box and the yet to be made lid braces still to be painted.



Found, and cut to size, a nice piece of felt for inside the box.

Enough offcuts leftover to cushion the box in it's carrier.
Don't want the footman loop fasteners to scratch the paint off.

[Private_collector]

I got bored!

Off to bed.

[Russ Gregg]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

The thread on lower end (where silver bolt is sticking out) is too wide for use, so I plan to find a suitable bold to insert firmly, cut flush with the botttom of the linkage, then drill & tap to the correct thread I need.

Look up Keensert, they are a thread repair system that might do exactly what you need if the inner and outer threads work out for the size you need. Once installed properly they will not come out. Helicoils serve a similar purpose but are less robust and should never be used with thread locker.

[Private_collector]

Hi Russ,

Not heard of that product before. I've started looking through their website, or a site selling their parts anyway.

[Private_collector]

[Private_collector]

My screws arrived, and I've been busy splashing gun blue over them.
The single ones at bottom are the old ones!

Getting there.



Ah, the memories.


Stencilling next, then attach the lid braces.

[Private_collector]

Stencilling is on.



Yeah, I should have put the stencil further to corner!
The box is centred on it's base.

[rnixartillery]

Excellent Job Tony !

Rob...................rnixartillery

[Private_collector]

Thanks, Rob.



I went to get some more information and measurements from my local 25pdr, this morning.
Because I can't easily put my shield in proper alignment with the axle, I need to be very sure the spare parts carrier frame won't be put in a location to foul the tyre when the two are finally joined. I want mine to be about 20-30mm up from the bottom of the shield edge. It will be going onto the shield while shield still sitting on the support frame I made to wheel it around on, and if placed 100% correctly, flush with bottom edge, the lower part of my support frame would prevent putting it on. If I raise the box carrier too much, it could be difficult to get the box out, because of the stiffening cross-brace on the shield (runs across, below the hole that barrel/tube goes through). You can see the original one, going across top of my photo. The more observant or knowledgeable folks would have noticed my version of that cross-brace has the horizontal section of the brace upside down. Original has it's horizontal part at the bottom, when in place. Mine has the horizontal portion at the top. If mine exactly copied the original, I wouldn't have had the breathing space to raise the box up by that extra height. Now you know why I did it that way!

I have another important part arriving shortly, and needed some more detailed photos of certain things. While getting those photos, I became aware of something I had not noticed before. The rectangular plate in the above two photos has me perplexed. I don't recall seeing this in any of my reference books. What is it for? I gather something is clipped in place, but have no idea what that is! Guess that means I have yet another part to acquire or make. I prefer to acquire, to be honest.

Speaking of acquisition, I am still desperately needing a pair of the brackets that hold the shield to carriage and trails. If you have a pair to sell, please let me know. I want to attach those brackets onto the shield before I set my guy to do the welding of the trails.

In paying closer attention to the detail on my local gun today, I am now aware that it is deteriorating rapidly. Both tyres are splitting and literally coming apart. The areas that weren't lucky enough to get sufficient (sometimes any) paint, are rusting at an accelerated pace, and the lower portion of the sight carrier body is crumbling into oblivion.

At some point I dare say the gun will receive more attention and another paintjob, but I can clearly see that this process in the past has not proven succeed in achieving anything longterm. One thing I have real problems with, is watching things deteriorate. Everything does wear down/out, of course, whether it's an outdorrs stored 25pdr, new cars, house,....or me! Pity everything can't stay pristine.

[Private_collector]

The next big piece of the puzzle has arrived this afternoon, thanks to another MLU member.
It is very exciting to finally have one of these in my hands. I'm not sure if I will sleep well tonight because it has arrived, or if I won't sleep at all because I've got it to start playing with.

The very bottom has suffered from considerable exposure to water at some point in it's long life, but fortunately the shape of the corrosion has left good perch for me to graft a replacement section on the undamaged casting. I think I'm up to the challenge. Quite looking forward to taking on that task. Very grateful the corrosion has not travelled as far as the clinometer mounting. Replicating that would be a cow of a job.

I couldn't resist placing my dial sight carrier where it needs to be. It will look real good, when attached permanently, and won't require a nikko pen to hold it in place!


Rob N, email coming your way real soon.

[Private_collector]

The sight carrier assembly is being stripped down, for full rebuild. Photos to follow tomorrow. Having issues with my phone right now.

Very pleased to say, I don't think any internal parts are required, beyond those which were anticipated early on.

Although.....one should be very careful NOT to claim victory too early.

Some pieces need a little more work than I had originally thought, because some earlier owner had taken the whole 'deactivated' theme rather too far for my liking, and applied lumps of weld to defenceless bolts, nuts, etc... Not so much an issue if doing a liquid restoration, but I want to have everything working as it should, so everything must be able to come apart for cleanup.

The following photos are a few days old, with the first one being most recent of those. Pretty much everything is apart now. Even the abortion that you see in 2nd photo below. There was a nice big blob of weld on that one, and the grease nipple had rotted away long ago, by the looks.


My welder friend assures me he can weld up the bottom of the casing, where serious corrosion has eaten away a decent chunk of metal. I think we will probably weld a 'reasonably' accurate copy of the lower portion, and then use filler to finish and add all the finer details.

Quite a few pieces are brass or bronze, including a large part on the rear of the assembly. All going well, I intend to retain that in unpainted condition. Possibly even polished up. I know it's not as it would have appeared in real life, but these things are such a piece of art in their own right. Would be a pity not to emphasise that, I think.

PS: If you didn't see the irony in the very first photo........look in the background on right side.
Somebody's gonna get a whole can o' whoop-ass opened on em!

[Private_collector]

As promised.

Only a few parts yet to be cleaned and inspected, before undercoating.
In the end, I decided against leaving the large brass part unpainted. It would have been a HUGE job to remove every trace of paint and tarnish from every flaw and crevice of the casting. Paint stripper wasn't much help either. The original color, which was surprisingly light in shade, would hardly soften in places, but repeated applications got the most of it. Abrasion with a small wire brush got the remainder.
The main shaft is in excellent condition, and required little more than a modest degreasing. All 4 main bearings, likewise! If they were holding a wheel stub in place, I might consider replacing them, but as they will have little actual work to do, originals will be fine for that light duty work.

I was surprised to find the telescope carrier (first photo) is made of aluminium. Would have expected that to be more valuable during wartime, and saved for manufacturing items that MUST be made light. Still, I'm pleased it was aluminium, with an appropriately reduced amount of corrosion to overcome.

It's roughly 2120hrs, as I write this, and I suspect spending too much time under the sun today, as I've been feeling unwell since about midday. The summer temperatures (around 36 Celsius) today, has done me in, I suspect. When I came inside at ~ 1700hrs, I showered and went straight to bed.....where I remain as writing this. The several hours sitting, cross-legged, cleaning and sanding parts, have also resulted in an odd pattern of sunburn to the legs.

I have a shipment of parts coming from Rob N, which should be here by late in the week. Those parts will fill the vacancy left by missing, or badly damaged, original pieces. Once they have arrived, things will get REALLY exciting, because I've had a few parts whch have been awaiting purchase of the assembly they afix to, and it will be wonderful to finally see them mated together at last. I'm not quite at the assembly stage yet though.