Cab 12 Alteration???

[r.morrison]

Gentlemen: Going to throw this on the table and I have no idea if this subject has been brought up before on this Forum.....has any one ever attempted to alter the floor/pedals of a Cab 12 configuration to make it more driver friendly. I am 6 foot 2 inches, 270 lbs and have 13 W shoe size. When I push in the clutch, I push in the gas at the same time. Kinda like an elephant in a china shop. Love the look of the truck...but not the configuration.
Comments please....with thanks. Robert

[Bob Carriere]

The cramped quarters, heat from the engine, noise from the gears, sore bum from inadequate seat padding, no room for your bare feet let alone boots..... top speed of ..... you would not want to steer it at 80 mph.....

.....that is the charm of the beast.

I have taken to wearing track shoes instead of steel capped boots...... left foot for clutch only ....right foot twisted for the throttle and much anticipated defensive driving so not to have to brake too often..... roll your stops and leave in second gear......

It was designed by a mad British engineer with his mind set to get even with mankind and used a 20 year old lad raised in the depression that only grew to 5 foot 4 inches at 135 pounds a a model.

Seriously, am I ever....... I do have a cab 12 that had the floor modified to gain a few precious inches. Will try to get you some pictures...... they actually cut out a flat section from the curved inner fender and extended the floor plate over the crescent shaped floor opening...... and it is sitting on home made 20 rims/tires WHICH do not seem to rub when turning hard corners....... I makes a lot of sense but it really destroys the historical value of the vehicle. The homemade rims are 16 inch centers welded to a 20 inch rim...... No it is not drive on the street nor does it run at the moment..... I actually purchased the truck just to have the special U-Joint that links the winch to the T case..... it has also donated numerous other parts since.... generator, water pump, doors, engine covers, rifle brackets, etc.

The only old vehicle that is dependable, reasonably safe to drive even roll upside down, suitable for rainy West coast weather and half comfortable for guys your size is a well done M 37.

Cheers

Bob C

[rob love]

Tsk-tsk-tsk....modifying vehicles when surgery, diet, and discipline are available to correct the shortcomings or overages of the operator. For shame.

[David DeWeese]

Hi,

Had the same problem with my cab 11 C8, post #421.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...=11657&page=15

Thanks, David

[r.morrison]

Your thoughts.... are my thoughts. Sitting down and looking high and low, it's the only idea I can come up with. ALONG with "altering" the pedals and widening their location. As you say "precious inches" or cut your feet off and use wooden "stumps"! My associates and I will ponder this a little further.
Now....you also mentioned 20 inch rims. Enlighten me please.

Many thanks for jumping in Bob......Robert

[r.morrison]

Rob....my cardiologist told me the exact same thing....and that was for driving a classic 1994 Ford F150 pick up! David's comments are spot on. We'll "carry on...carrying on"! Robert

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Robert

Went out and took some pictures from two cab 12 ....one modified one pristine(big word considering the rust). My apologies if some are fuzzy I did a quick job using my phone instead of the my better Sony.

First the wheel..... I have seen numerous mod jobs some better than others some with CMP 20 in.rims others with Budd wheel 20 in.rims.

The best is using the inner half of the 16 in. rim welded to the 20 in rim. Seems they cut out the center of the front face of the 20 in. rim and weld in the 16 in rim using the rim mounting bolts as a form of alignment..... and apparently they were driven like that on the road.

I have attached a picture of a better job.

Now for the floor modification.

Will need to attach in two series as there are more than five.

I have tried to included right on the pictures as much explanations as possible.....if it is not clear please comeback with questions.

They really did a good job ofo getting the inner fender bulge out of the way and from what I can observed....unless the truck was driven on very rough ground doing a hard right turn.... the 20 inch tire does not appear to rub.
None of the pedal were relocated...in particular the gas pedal. From my experience unless you intend to use a modern throttle cable sued on hot rods there is no room to modify the linkage for the gas pedal.

They cut along the famous angle iron arches and only flattened the side peice of the toe board. I would gamble to say that given a spare inner fender I could reverse the process. They used stiff 1/8 plates fro the floor and the side vertical wall of the box.

All in all not a bad conversion. Why the h*** did the designer not think of that or the modification carried into the Service Bulletin?????

The next posting will focus on the truck with out the modifications and how they would cut.

Enjoy.

Bob C

[Bob Carriere]

These pictures are of the unmodified cab 12 and where it would be done.

Again if anything is unclear ask away.

PS..... last picture in wrong order.... it shows the finished inside of the mods.


Now Robert......are you going to torch it....or endure the pain like a trouper????

Alex...... what do you think??? will you endure or are you blessed with a healthy small frame and small feet???

Bob C.

PS to the PS....... this unmodified cab 12 has the dot and dash floor plates.


Cheers

[chris vickery]

I'm a pretty large lad myself and like you guys decided to restore a 12cab Ford CMP as my first truck. My helper, my father, also a bigger fella.
Here is what I did;
-reduced the seat cushion to maximize room
-eliminated the wooden spacers under the seat mounts
-tried to drive wearing work boots, a no go.
-switched to running shoes
-drove barefoot but not for long as the engine heat cooked my little piggies
-finally figured a way to clutch as little as possible while utilizing the right toes and heel combo to facilitate fuel delivery and braking capabilities as needed.
In other words, if I had no arms I'd be great at painting with my feet... Practice and more practice.

[r.morrison]

Well, some great points put forth here (with the exception of Mr Love's !). David's alteration has some great points and so does Bob's in as much as cutting out the bulbous part of the fender and creating a flat surface. And Chris's going through the motions of foot size etc. I sold my ballet slippers years ago! And I am squeamish about the cutting of the original fender. I wish I had a spare to sacrifice. I'm probably just going to sit in the cab, taking in all this info and put a plan together. I also realised why Phil has removed the roof on his unit. Sure makes it a hell of a lot easier getting in and out and I think it looks cool! Thanks again for your input gents. Robert

[rob love]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

Well, some great points put forth here (with the exception of Mr Love's !)

... ...

[Alex van de Wetering]

Alex...... what do you think??? will you endure or are you blessed with a healthy small frame and small feet???

I have a desk job and also do scale modelling......so, my frame is not as small as it should be. No small feet either.

To be honest, I haven't looked at the pedals yet. As always I intend to keep eveything stock and original, so I can only hope a pair of all-Stars will solve any issues.

I did see one or two cab 11/12 Chevrolets that had some extra room created for the left foot, by bending the engine cover a bit towards the engine and filling the triangular gap (about an inch at max I think) with some sheet metal. That is a small mod that is hard to spot and gives extra clearance for your left foot.

Bob, that modification to the inner fender is quite interesting. I think it's a clever idea, even though I think it could be done a bit more stylish. I would look at bending the whole inner fender and also the frontmost inner fender piece outward (with the inspection panel for the steering box). This should give a cleaner result, even though I am not sure if it would clear the wheel. Than again....clearance between the inner fender and wheel is also linked to tyre size used....and if you have a 4x2 or 4x4 truck. You could even limit the maximum steering angle by adding a stop to the front axle.

But, why did the previous owner of that truck go to all the trouble of adding extra room for the feet and still retain the original pedal setup? Why didn't he convert to a more conventional pedal setup.....maybe by using cab 13 parts and moving the gas pedal to the right in the newly created space???

Another idea....what about hand controls?

Alex

[Bob Carriere]

I am also driving my cab 11 as an open top roadster....it greatly facilitates getting into and stepping out of the cab.....nonetheless I still have to grab my pant leg to pull in my right leg over the door sill. I did reinstall the seat without the wood spacer and my original bottom seat cushion is lower with age. Eventually I will have the roof installed ad will screw mysel finto the dirver's seat.....wonder what the noise level will be like with solid flat wall behind my head reverberating. The headline panels will no doubt be useful.

The worst I have experience was trying trying to step down into the driver's seat of a cab 12 gun tractor...it was all original with wooden spacer for the seat and a full re-padded seat cushion. I could not have driven the gun tractor has the top of my left and right leg were resting on the underside of the steering wheel and made it impossible to lift my feet to put the on the pedals.

Another possible solution would be to install a 2 speed automatic tranny and keep only the brake and gas pedal. We have one at the barn....it bolts up to a 235 or 261 and is short enough to be coupled to the T-case with a short shaft.
Not sure what kind of snail it would be on the road as the gear ratio would have the engine either revving in LOW range or stumbling in 2nd gear.

...or maybe an electric motor with the cargo box filled with batteries for ballast..... think of it...no pollution and they would let you drive in future ANZAC parades.

A few year ago I crawled into "Bart", the Sherman from Oshawa. I tried doing what I had done many time when I was a teenager..... I let myself fall into the driver's seat, and as the tank turret was turned sideways, I crawled from the front seat through the turret basket opening and came up and out through the commander's hatch..... it was not as easy as when I was a 16 Y.O. string bean.

Old truck designs and old stiff oversize bodies is not the best combination.

I built it so I will endure.

Bob C.

[r.morrison]

Bob....I don't think the electric motor is my cup of tea. Grant Hopkins, over on Vancouver Island (that's the guy with the early Cab 11 for $500.00) suggested an automatic transmission. His point is well taken, given a little more insight into the points you put forth. In reality....it's probably the best bet. However, my associates and I will endeavour to come up with a plan taking in all this expert info into this endeavour!
Thanks for the info on the top removed. My feelings exactly.
As far as the physical end of it.....you are spot on. Too little too late! I can remember shimming up a rope that hung out the Lancaster Bomber perched on a pedestal on Lakeshore Drive in Toronto. Today, I'd be lucky just to walk to it!

Many thanks to all for your info..... Robert

[Bob Carriere]

The whole issue is to be able to fit the tranny WITHOUT relocating the transfer case. On a 2 wheel drive C15 it is not an issue.

In the early 60s GM had the 261 engine in GM van bodies and they used a particular 3 speed tranny that had a very short tail shaft..... that's the beast that must be located. Also believe that the tail shaft on most GM 3 speed could be changed form short, med. or long dependent on the vehicle it was installed in. It apparently fits in the CMP space using a very short drive shaft to the t case. I have not seen one and am not sure what model to ask for. Need to befriend a auto tranny rebuild guy that is old enough to have worked on them. Early 261 van engines ALSO had a hydraulic operated clutch that was on the right hand side of the bell housing identical to the CMP.

1960 GM vehicles are already considered antiques.

Bob C

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

1960 GM vehicles are already considered antiques.C

Be careful Bob, both you and I were built before 1960. I don't want to be "antique" - do you want to be considered pre-historic?

[Paul Singleton]

Hi Bob,
The Chevy trucks from 1960 to 62 all had a hydraulic clutch with the slave cylinder on the right hand side of the bellhousing. Also the 235/261 engines could have had two different auto transmissions. The cast iron powerglide (2 speed) in cars and the four speed hydramatic in light trucks. Both are fairly short. The hydramatic was a rare option and scarce to find today. For CMP use the powerglide would work as long as you don’t abuse it. Also the aftermarket did sell a kit to put a thre speed automatic trans on to a 235. I don’t know if it is still available but it probably won’t fit in a CMP due to the added length.

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks Paul

I picked up a complete 61 bell housing with the slave cylinder for $50 at Sterling flea market a few years back.

I do have access to a 2 speed power glide with the adaptor ring to fit a 261
( came out of a Pontiac ) but I fear the 2 speed will not be good with the low gear ratio of the CMP axle.

will fish the aftermarket for an "adapter kit" that would allow a 3 speed to hookup to the 235/261 bolt pattern...... although a bit of a long shot.

The engine bay on a cab 11/12 is so narrow that fitting a small V6 or V8 would be a butchering job....... however if I do get started on a "Umbau-wagon" I can / could be creative .........


Found out from Wikipedia that the word umbauwagon translate to "rebuilt coach" and could apply to anything captured that was rebuilt.

On the later 3 speed did they not have a 6 cylinder in the 250ci range that was used in 4 wheel drive...... what I am getting at is my suspicion that they had a variety of tail shafts..... the 4x4 would have been bolted directly to the T case with NO tail shaft some short wheel based GM may have used some form of short tail shaft..... just do not know what model/year to search for in a junk yard.

I have a bare frame/nose cab 12....no engine tranny.... that I could use to check the fit of a SB chev.... just a cheap seized boat anchor would suit fine for checking clearances. Makes me shiver to think about butchering a good cab11/12....

Bob C

[Bob Carriere]

....is vintage...... as in fine aged wine.....it may be old and dusty and the label ripped but the content refined!!!!!

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Paul Singleton

The cast iron powerglide (2 speed) in cars and the four speed hydramatic in light trucks.

Do you have any idea if the hydramatic you are talking about was the same basic transmission as the one in the M135-211 series (that had a 2 range unit added to the transmission rather than the more common 2 speed transfer case set-up)? It might be another source of parts....

[Paul Singleton]

Hi Grant, I think probably the same basic transmission. I have seen the trans in the old 3102 GM bus and they look the same. I haven’t had the opportunity to look at a m135 so I can’t say for sure.

And Bob, the newer 230/250/292 engines used either a turbo 350 or 400 automatic transmission. The turbo 350 can be had with a short 6 inch tail housing but if I recall it is still a couple of inches longer than a cast iron powerglide. This transmission was common up to about 1980 in midsize GM cars that had Chevy engines.

[lynx42]

I had the same problem with my feet so I obtained these. I have sold my Cab 12 and I no longer need them.

I took these left and right inners to the Corowa Swim-In and no one wanted then so I brought them home. Might save butchering another pair or change yours and keep these for returning to original later.



Postage might be a problem but there are here if wanted $15.00 each plus freight.

Regards Rick

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Found out from Wikipedia that the word umbauwagon translate to "rebuilt coach" and could apply to anything captured that was rebuilt.

There are indeed references to rebuilt railway passenger train coaches. But I am guessing you are referring to the German Army Umbau-Wagen, a generic term for converted (and/or reconstructed) vehicle. If you search on MLU for Umbau-Wagen, one will find a host of converted vehicles, including CMPs, Morris-Commercials, Ford Marmon-Herringtons. The German Army captured a lot of vehicles during the early stages of the war, which they were in dire need of to convert their Army from horse-drawn to motorised.

Being the gründlich (thorough) people they are, standardised coachwork designs were used as much as possible.

Also refer to Paul Hocking's classification found in the posting German WWII Beute-Fahrzeuge and Umbau-Wagen (Britisch).

HTH,
Hanno

[Gordons]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

Gentlemen: Going to throw this on the table and I have no idea if this subject has been brought up before on this Forum.....has any one ever attempted to alter the floor/pedals of a Cab 12 configuration to make it more driver friendly. I am 6 foot 2 inches, 270 lbs and have 13 W shoe size. When I push in the clutch, I push in the gas at the same time. Kinda like an elephant in a china shop. Love the look of the truck...but not the configuration.
Comments please....with thanks. Robert

Robert you don't like my block of wood ! It served me well, the 11 and 12 where a poor cab design and that's the appeal of the 12 cab, in good shape there a fine truck at low speed, 20 to 30 mph that is !!!