CMP/MV Licensing

Jon Skagfeld · #1 27-05-08, 01:24

Greetings:

I've just attached a 1943 Ontario license plate to the front of my CMP, with the proper HV marker at the rear.

Has any one else here done the same, in order to go to car shows or rallies, etc?

Has any one had empirical experience of being hassled by the local gendarmes WRF the above?

Since I live in a rural area, I highly doubt that I would have a problem, however, perhaps some over-zealous rookie cop might pull me over and make an issue of it. (Keeping front marker in windscreen, in plain view, just in case).

In anticipation of an answer or two, I'll be sporting the 1943 plate at CC7.....or attendees may have to bail me out of jail!

maple_leaf_eh · #2 28-05-08, 03:56

I'm in the middle of getting my M38A1 legal, so your question is timely.

I have been led to believe that to use old plates you need a matched pair with numbers that are not already issued to a current vehicle. So, having one old plate on your truck is the same as having no plates.

There was a well known story about a fellow who was stopped by a lady cop here in Ottawa. She told him his plate was not properly 'affixed'. He got out and saw it was screwed on. He then got mouthy, uncooperative and demanded to speak to her supervisor. When that cop arrived and asked him to step out of the car to talk. He refused, and was eventually dragged forcefully through the broken car window. His plate was not properly 'affixed' which didn't mean attached but improperly stickered. After being charged and convicted and sentenced, he played used the race card. He was still guilty looking like a spiteful idiot. The lesson is, proper plates at all times.

My situation is chicken or egg. Do I need insurance to register my vehicle, not as a runner, just to put it in my name? The licence bureau lady said I need insurance before I can register it, but the one insurance company that sells antique vehicle coverage wants it registered before they will insure. The value is not a problem, because I had a qualified appraiser put a $$$$ on it last fall. Hmm, didn't know about a Historic Vehicle plate?

What do I need to do?

peter simundson · #3 29-05-08, 23:26

...register it as unfit. ie..with no plates. Then you get historic vehicle insurance when it is finished restoration by getting an appraisal by a P.A.V.E.
appraiser and submitting it to Lant (for instance). Then if you want to test drive it or get a certificate on it to get it licensed yo pay $20 for a 10 day permit and put it in the front window. Then over to the shop for a certificate, Then take your unfit permit, your certificate and your pink slip (the paper one) over to DTC store and they change it over. After charging you tax, transfer and plates.

Sounds easy eh?

maple_leaf_eh · #4 30-05-08, 03:27

Unfit - historic plate - 10 day trip permit. That is a sneakier way of getting the jeep on the road than I had envisaged, but a good way to use the system. Ten-day trip permits seem to be an Ontario phenomenon. I never heard of them growing up in Quebec. The appraisal was necessary to establish a value for the taxes on transfer. I'll have to reread whether the insurer needs another certificate.

Since posting above, I went to the licence bureau (Bank at Walkley, for the locals). I avoided the lady I'd spoken to before, and got a young guy. Told him I wanted to change the ownership, register it as unfit and not get any plates. He asked for the the bill of sale, the old signed off registration, the appraiser's letter and the government's $20 used vehicle report. One hundred and ninety dollars and 20 minutes later I was done. And I'd gone in there armed with a coffee, a sticky bun and the newspaper. The Jeep is now mine as unfit and the paperwork has been blessed. For some places that is a big deal.

The sequence I had in mind was A) change the ownership to me (check); B) make it a runner (check back in a year!); C) maybe tow it to a safety check issuing garage; and D) take the assembled paperwork to the licence bureau. Using a trip permit means I could drive it there instead, and not strain the Residential Sergeant Major's daily driver van.

The appraiser (Mr. Rupert Phelan) was quite interested in the vehicle. A switch from BMWs, Jaguars and '55 Chev Belairs. I'll make introductions if any other ROTTers want to cultivate his friendship to do basic ownership changes.

peter simundson · #5 30-05-08, 03:58

don't forget there are two types of appraisals required. The first one you need when you register it as unfit is a green one page deal that only establishes a value for transferring it to you.

The second is when it is finished and is a "Vintage Vehicle Appraisal"
that is done by a P.A.V.E. appraiser and gets you inexpensive antique insurance. DTC doesn't see this one as it only goes to the broker.

PS

servicepub (RIP) · #6 30-05-08, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Greetings:

I've just attached a 1943 Ontario license plate to the front of my CMP, with the proper HV marker at the rear.

Has any one else here done the same, in order to go to car shows or rallies, etc?

Has any one had empirical experience of being hassled by the local gendarmes WRF the above?

Since I live in a rural area, I highly doubt that I would have a problem, however, perhaps some over-zealous rookie cop might pull me over and make an issue of it. (Keeping front marker in windscreen, in plain view, just in case).

In anticipation of an answer or two, I'll be sporting the 1943 plate at CC7.....or attendees may have to bail me out of jail!

Jon ,
Are you aware that you can apply for Year Of Manufacture plates? These YOM cost as much as a vanity plate and you have to provide them yourself. As stated earlier the plate number must be appropriate for the vehicle (not a Farm or Commercial plate) and must be in 'new' condition. Eric Booth knows of a guy who restores these plates. If you merely intend to show the plate when the vehicle is parked then the above doesn't matter. In my case I will get regular plates for my new (to me) M38A1 but will hang a set of DND plates on it, appropriately numbered, when I am parked at a MilVeh event.

Cheers,

Clive

Bob Carriere · #7 30-05-08, 17:24

HI Terry

The appraiser you dealt with...... Rupert Phelan.... is he a certified PAVE appraiser..... or does he do just the first initial appraisal at the unfit stage...?

Hi Peter

What happens when you have no previous registration...... I do have a ID tag on the engine cover...... but it shows my cab 11 as being a cab 13 1943 and I don't particularly want to use it......?? I have a blank tag from Dirk..!!!

BooB

Bob Carriere · #8 30-05-08, 17:40

HI Clive

Catch 22...... if you find a truck or C commercial license plate for Ontario 1940 you can't use it because they only had one plate and Ontarion insists on having a front and back plate..... just in case you rob a back and drive away backwards...!!!

I have also found a T trailer plate for 1940..... remains to be seen if I can have a YOM plate for the trailer...... which I will swear on a bible was built in 1940.....

The license bureau at Westgate told me that a set of 2 car plates is acceptable for a truck providing it is not used commercially.

..... as you explained last week....... since a cop can check a license plate number on his onboard computer in a few seconds .... why does it take a month for the Belleville license HQ to tell you if the numbers on your 1940 plate can be used...?? than charge you the same price as a hand made vanity plate (approx. $250) and you provide the plate...?? Geez!!!!

BooB

chris vickery · #9 30-05-08, 20:41

Just to play "devil's advocate" here;

Why would one want to put a 1940's license plate on their MV anyways???

Now before I get a plethora of complaints here, yes, I know, some cmps did wear a plate on occasion; that was few and far between as I know it. I believe only trucks used on public roads during test etc as well as maybe an odd base vehicle.

If you are restoring your truck as used in theater, do away with plates altogether when you go to a show. Old speaker magnets work great, they hold like a bugger but not so much as to make quick removal of a modern plate easy.

Jon Skagfeld · #10 31-05-08, 02:53

Clive: That's really my intention...to "show off" the '43 plate at shows,etc.

I'm aware of the procedure for acquiring YOM plates, and don't want to go down that path.

BTW Clive, you are, are you not, dragging your Jeep to CC7? I read elsewhere that you intend to do a transfer for buyer/sender at the Etobicoke millitaria show.

So are you doing both on the same weekend?

Jon Skagfeld · #11 31-05-08, 02:56

Chris: Since my truck never left Canada, and since millitary vehicles in Ontario in the '40s had provincial plates, is the reason why I'm going this route, and hence the original question.

BTW...trivia question...if I have a '44 Chev, why have I put on a '43 plate?

Brian Gough · #12 31-05-08, 03:55

Hi Jon,

My guess to your trivia question is that Ontario did not issue license plate(s) in 1944.

Brian

RHClarke · #13 31-05-08, 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Gough

Hi Jon,

My guess to your trivia question is that Ontario did not issue license plate(s) in 1944.

Brian

it seems Ontario issued only one plate for trucks. I am going the historical vehicle route and will put a 45 plate on the truck at shows just for year of manufacture reference purposes.

Bob Carriere · #14 31-05-08, 04:36

Hi Jon

Some 43 plates were done on a hard 1/4 inch masonite......adn I image very rare today....

..... I have also seen, in collections, license plates that had been recycled by rolling flat and re punching new numbers....even with the new paint the old number can be seen faintly.

I think Brian is correct if they were so short of material as to make wooden plates some kind of stickers may have been used for 44....

Personally I see nothing wrong with driving my 1940 with school bus yellow plates of that year....after all if it was used in Ontario it would have had plates. It is not my intention to depict my truck as if it rolled out of a battle field with bullet holes on the doors and windshield ..... but come to think of it a big roll of concertina wire on the front bumper guard.... a few empty French wine bottles in the cab......spent shell casings..... leaking gerry cans.... retard the ignition to make it pop a bit.... that might be fun.... but will they let me in the parade...???

Boob

Dennis Gelean (RIP) · #15 31-05-08, 09:05

google Brian Asbury
He is a certified military appraiser. as well as a major supplier of hard to find Parts. and honest
dennis

maple_leaf_eh · #16 01-06-08, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter simundson

don't forget there are two types of appraisals required. The first one you need when you register it as unfit is a green one page deal that only establishes a value for transferring it to you.

The second is when it is finished and is a "Vintage Vehicle Appraisal"
that is done by a P.A.V.E. appraiser and gets you inexpensive antique insurance. DTC doesn't see this one as it only goes to the broker.

PS

I put a call into Rupert about PAVE appraisers. He said, no he is not, and Lant Insurance (aka Silverwheels) hasn't argued that he has to be one for their clients. Apparently, PAVE is a group of appraisers in and around Toronto who self-police, and have their trading areas. The one PAVE appraiser in Eastern Ontario is in Mountain (off 401 near Cornwall). No one in the big city. Rupert didn't have much positive to say about this entreprise.

There are indeed two appraisals, and some insurance carriers want them done on a 5-yr cycle. Rupert does both appraisals, but he is honest enough to know that owners know their vehicles better than an onlooker. So any value will be derived mutually.

Jon Skagfeld · #17 01-06-08, 06:10

Bang on Brian...no metal plates were issued in Ontario in 1944, due to the shortage of metal "for the war effort". One placed a decal in one's windscreen to validate their plate.

Another trivia question:...in what other, later, year did this "decal vs plate " situation occur?

Jordan Baker · #18 01-06-08, 15:01

Would $60 for a pair of 1942 ON plates be a fair price. I found a pair that are good with the MTO and I'd like to use them on my Jeep.

Ive just never really looked around too much. What have others paid?

Bob Carriere · #19 01-06-08, 21:47

.......they used to be $25 to 35 at flea markets.

Price went up when the province started allowing YOM..... strange coincidence..... however NONE of the sellers will give you your money back if MOT says the numbers can't be used.

A good original with good paint is probhably worth up to $75....

Some dealers sell good repainted plates for around $60......

I paid $30 for a 1940 T trailer plate in very good original condition....

Will check at Barrie next weekend just for comparison...

Bob

Grant Bowker · #20 01-06-08, 22:34

Does anyone know if the 1944 practice of issuing a decal instead of a plate was carried over to 1945, or had the metal shortage been declared over?

RHClarke · #21 02-06-08, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Does anyone know if the 1944 practice of issuing a decal instead of a plate was carried over to 1945, or had the metal shortage been declared over?

The (single) plate on my wall has "Ontario", a King's Crown, and "1945" (and four numbers separated by one smaller letter) on it...seems that there was some move to reduce the use of tin.

See http://www.canplates.com/ontario.html - from what I can glean, my plate was a dealer plate...