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  #1  
Old 13-12-17, 02:12
m kenny m kenny is offline
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Default 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment at Authie and Buron

All accounts I have read put B Squadron 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment east of Buron and C Squadron west of them. However Wochenschnau 719 June 16 1944

https://youtu.be/1pSew20P2M4?t=5m14s


shows M4s 'Blitz' and 'Chaser' knocked out within yards of each other.

Left 'Blitz', far right 'Chaser' with No. 22 at the rear.




Chaser


Blitz



The third tank is this one numbered '22' and whilst it is not possible to positively make out the name it looks like 'Cherry' T147129






In the same film Abbaye d'Ardenne is visible in the background



Which means the men are somewhere in the lower LH half of this air view.
Abbaye d'Ardenne is top left of centre.


Last edited by m kenny; 13-12-17 at 02:35.
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Old 13-12-17, 04:48
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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I wouldn't stress about which axis which squadron attempted. The War Diaries in the beginning are well done and very articulate. They got sparser and sparser as the summer and fall progressed. It is entirely possible that tank placements were never fully communicated to HQ, while individual commanders fought their small battles. Some tanks evidently strayed left and right, and jockeyed for position as the fight changed.

But, it is interesting to see how quickly commanders slapped on the spare track or forgot to jettison the wading breathers. One tank looks like its "Quick Fix" applique armour peeled off too.
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Old 13-12-17, 14:39
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Nice pics... the 50 cal is listed on the CES for the Sherman VC, but there are few pics (that I have seen) where they are actually mounted.

Cheers

Tim
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Old 13-12-17, 17:12
Harry Moon Harry Moon is offline
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Default I wonder

If anybody ever researched if those prisoners were murdered in the Abbye?
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Old 14-12-17, 00:35
m kenny m kenny is offline
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This is Blitz from the front



and these wrecks are shown in the same newsreel:




These 2 could be the same tank




Bomber






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  #6  
Old 14-12-17, 00:53
m kenny m kenny is offline
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Map of the battle



and an air view



This is where Chaser and Blitz were knocked out with no. 22 Cherry.



Note the location is Franqueville and reading John Gilbert's 'Bloddy Buron' I see he mentions there was some confusion as to where the engagement took place and he says it was more likely Franqueville than the commonly accepted Authie. He is correct.

Note that the POWs seen in my first post were located somewhere at the centre bottom of the above air view and thus must be survivors from the tanks being taken away.

Last edited by m kenny; 14-12-17 at 01:16.
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Old 04-01-18, 22:35
MicS MicS is offline
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Default ID of wrecked tanks

Michael,

Excellent job at identifying the location of the wrecks

We can try and find out whose tanks those were.

From the 27 CAR War Diary [I highlighted the more relevant part in bold characters and added my notes in italics inside square brackets]:

27 CANADIAN ARMOURED REGIMENT(SFR)
Diary of events of "D" Day and D plus 1 by Sgt. T.C. Reid,
No. 2 Troop, "C" Sqn.
"D" Day
"D" Day and we have hit the beach at last, we move off the beach and into our respective convoys, so far its exactly like any one of numerous schemes in England and we are on our to our assembly area where I join my Squadron, also my own troop [this means Sgt Reid's tk was in a different LCT from the rest of his Tp]. On the way I catch my first glimpse of the foe and these are prisoners and they are not so unhappy about it. The convoy has reached the assembly area at last; I meet Cpl. Quinn and Lt. MacLean and he hurriedly attempts to give us some of the score as to what's happening ahead. The Sqn convoy then gets under way to move up and the day soon fades into night and our Sqn Cmdr. gets us into a battle formation in a field, where we hear some scary reports about Jerry tanks forming up. What a bastard of a night, no time for sleep, no time to eat, no time for anything but looking into the dark and wondering what's ahead.
"D" plus 1
Day No. 1 at last. We hear over the air about some of the exploits of our assault Sqns. "A" and "B", and with what I hear, I'm not afraid to admit I'm a wee bit glad my Sqn is in reserve. We move on late in the morning, my troop No.2 in the lead. We no sooner get going than down the road comes Mr. Thompson walking in a daze, Mortar fire quickly put him out of the picture. We go on a little farther and we take a Jerry machine gun crew prisoners. The next thing I hear is Major Walsh tell my troop leader to go with his troop and help "B" Sqn. We go and for one hour we are in the centre of the heaviest mortar fire I could ever imagine and I was glad to once more hear my troop leader order us back to a small orchard, where he quickly outlined our next job which was to assist "C" Company, I believe of the N.N.S.H., to clean out the towns codenamed Rhine and Danube. I believe the proper names were Authie and Buron; however just as we were set to go Mr. MacLean severely damaged his right wrist caused by catching it with the counter balance of his gun. It was badly swollen and painful looking, I believe it was broken so he put me in point tank position. We blasted all the houses holding up the infantry in the first town and put two machine gun positions out. Then on to Buron. I no sooner get going than they opened up with terrific small arms fire, we answered with our co-ax and they shut up. Mr. MacLean and Cpl. Quinn were deploying to my left and knocking off fleeing infantry who kept popping up in front and instead of surrendering, just either shot it out or ran. Mr. MacLean came up on the "B" set and told me to halt and take out an enemy hornet which I couldn't see, but pulling up a little farther, I discovered two of them at about a distance of 8 or 9 hundred yards. He instructed me to take the one on the left and my gunner Tpr. Gilbert, L.J. lifted the ring cupola into the air with his first, his 2nd & 3rd shots burned said tank up. In the meantime either Sgt. Cathcart [of 1 Tp C Sqn], who had come and joined us or Lt. MacLean, I couldn't truthfully say, blew the other hornet up. We then carried on and I saw a "B" Sqn troop had also joined us. We were running line abreast and although at the time I hadn't noticed Lieut. E. Spafford [Tp Ldr 1 Tp C Sqn] had pulled into the show on our right. The first house we came to at Buron gave forth Machine gun fire so I lobbed H.E. in the windows. Those that ran out to the road got smacked down by Mr. Spafford's guns and those ran to left were caught by Sgt. Cathcart., Mr. MacLean and Cpl. Quinn. We shoved on again and it was a breeze, nothing but infantry until we were fire on by A/T guns to our right. Mr. MacLean quickly dispersed us and instructed us as to the guns we were to take out. I believe the gun crew on my particular target had deserted the gun, however we took no chances and quickly dispatched same. The "B" Sqn troop, commanded as I later found by Lieut. Steeves [Tp Ldr 1 Tp B Sqn] and the remainder of the tanks were taking out their guns when suddenly, out of the blue we got it. I, myself, felt a jolt in my tank, looked back and found my blanket box shot through. The next shot unseated my L.O., Tpr Galley, and I then saw what was hitting us. There were 12 hornets lined up in hull downs about 2500 yds. away and the had us cold; their third round went through my engine and quickly after that they struck Lieut. MacLean's and Lieut. Steeves' almost simultaneously. They both burned up and then I saw Mr. Steeves and his gunner both frantically struggling to get out of the turret. Mr. Steeves fell back in and the gunner fell out, Mr. Steeves then reappeared and he was pretty badly burnt, also his co-driver whose hatch was caught by the gun being traversed over it. About Mr. MacLean and his Gunner and L.O. I can't say I saw them get out although driver William Redmond claims the turret was empty as he looked. The remaining tanks, Cpl. Quinn, Sgt. Cathcart, 1 Recce tk. and Sgt. Fisher all scooted behind a large barn where Sgt. Fisher decided to make a run back. He started down the road and they struck him three times and burned his tank up, his L.O. burned up with it.
I and my crew report to the C.O. at ELDER.
The end of part I, part II in the future.
Signed: Sgt. T. C. Reid.

The above narrative fits almost perfectly with the photos of the wrecks and their turret numbers:

1 Tp B Sqn
Tp Ldr - Lt K.L. Steeves - Sherman Vc 'BLITZ' T148475 - No.11

2 Tp C Sqn
Tp Ldr - Lt I.A. MacLean - Sherman Vc 'CHASER' T212703 - No.21 most probably
Tp Sgt - Sgt T.C. Reid - Sherman III 'CHERRY' T147129 - No.22

This confirms what can also be inferred by the rest of the War Diary regarding the organisation of 27 CAR around D Day:

Four tanks in RHQ
Four tanks in SHQ
Four troops of one Sherman Vc (Tp Ldr) and three Sherman III each

Turret numbering = Sqn symbol + 2-digit code made up of Tp No. + Tk No. within Tp. Thus, using 2 Troop as an example:
2 Tp Ldr - No.21
2 Tp Sgt - No.22
2 Tp Cpl - No.23
2 Tp Cpl - No.24

Although the turret number on CHASER is very faint because of the fire, one can just about guess the top of the digits '21' on this attached photo showing the rear of the turret (for the original large size photo click here CHASER - No.21, then on the downwards pointing arrow and select "original"):


One must then assume that the "blanket box" on CHERRY mentioned by Sgt Reid is not the turret box, which shows no sign of being "shot through", but another box carried on the rear of the hull. Apart from this remark, the various impacts seen on the photos of CHERRY all match the narrative.

To further check this identification, we can see that CHASER bears the LTIN 1716, which carried Lt MacLean and only one Firefly, which was the only tank of C Sqn on board, so the match is confirmed (original size CHASER - LTIN 1716):


Full size doc of following extract here T-12758 - 1064 - 27 CAR - War Diary - Jun 44 - Appx 5 - Org & Adm - Craft Serials giving details of Loads:


27 CAR - Veh Allocation to Craft - 22 Apr 44:


From the last document above we can also verify the possibility that No.22 C Sqn CHERRY might have been a different LCT than his troop leader. The LTIN on the photo below is difficult to make out, but it definitely starts with 172x:
CHERRY - LTIN 172x


Tweaking the negative of the last picture of CHERRY in Michael's post I would say that the LTIN is 1723, and the loading code therefore reads:
1044/1/LCT
......1723


There is however one dissonant note in all these matching facts, in the form of one puzzling remark by Sgt Reid who writes "Mr. Steeves then reappeared and he was pretty badly burnt, also his co-driver whose hatch was caught by the gun being traversed over it". Firefly No.11 BLITZ's gun is not over the co-driver's hatch, and there is no co-driver in a Firefly...

Michel
Attached Thumbnails
C Sqn 2 Tp - T-12758 - 0901 - 27 CAR - War Diary - Jun 44 - D Day Report - 2 Tp C Sqn.jpg   C Sqn 2 Tp - T-12758 - 0902.jpg   C Sqn 2 Tp - T-12758 - 0903.jpg  

Last edited by MicS; 09-01-18 at 11:12.
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  #8  
Old 05-01-18, 03:01
MicS MicS is offline
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Default CHASER's crew

Lt I.A. MacLean and his crew members Tpr H. Thistle D-47054 and Tpr A.J. Steer M-104013 were reported missing on 7 June. They were the only personnel from C Sqn missing on 7 June.
None of them is recorded as killed, and Lt MacLean does not appear in the returns any more, so they must have been made prisoners.

A simple googling gave this:
http://www.thousandislandslife.com/B...iary-1944.aspx

Extract:
"Behind me and to the left I could see B Sqn. still banging away and at the same time advancing toward me, that gave me the necessary courage to keep going up to the crest on the far side of Buron. It seemed fairly safe since we were all in the open and so far no sign of the guns, but I learnt later I was wrong. I spotted a Mark IV trying to make (p.32) a get away from Buron and the gunner put his first round right through it and it started to brew up immediately.

This also gave me Scotch courage so off we went hell bent for the ridge. I could see an S.P. gun just sticking out from behind a barn, I warned Sgt. Reid but too late, I saw it fire just as I did and Sgt. Reid was hit, the S.P. was hit also. I started up to Sgt. Reid’s tank, I could see B Sqn. and part of C coming up fast now so I decided to go on up the ridge. We had been going pretty steadily in the last two hours using up a lot of ammo (p.33) and everyone was thoroughly enjoying themselves although it was bloody hot and I was terribly thirsty.

We hadn’t gone more than 200 yards from where I saw the S.P. when I felt a terrific shock and twanging away in my ears. In a daze I realised we had been hit also. I could feel heat luring up through the turret so believe me we didn’t waste any time in bailing out. I don’t know how I got out of the turret but I found myself on the ground about 10 yds from my tank which was brewing up fast. Thistle and Steers joined me (p. 34) and I asked them about Readmond [William Redmond, the driver]. Steers said he was ok, had got out the front. Steers pants had been burning and so had mine. I looked unto see where Cpl Quinn was and unfortunately he was in the same spot as myself. Luckily we were in long grass so we could crawl fairly safely. I took a look at our position. We were about 1 1/2 miles from Buron and our troops. By this time my tank was blazing like a furnace and the ammo was starting to explode, so decided to move off towards (p.35) Buron crawling on our bellies. After crawling for about five minutes we stopped for a breather and to take stock of our position. Thistle and Steer were with me, Redmond had gone off in another direction. We had no weapons, my pistol had fallen out of my holster when I jumped. There was firing going on all around us and I figured it would be very unhealthy to try and look around so we started off crawling in the general direction of Buron. It was very uncomfortable since our own troops were shelling all around us and Gerry was shooting back.

We decided not to head directly towards the town but swing to the right a little and (p.36) lessen the chances of getting shot at by our own troops. After crawling for about an hour we stopped again for a breather. There seemed to be a lull in the shooting so I risked sticking my head up and believe me I got quite a shock. Coming towards us from behind were hundreds of Gerries sweeping through the fields to counter attack Buron.

I knew then the game was up. One of them spotted me as soon as I saw them and yelled. The three of us stood up and that was that.”


We now have the complete crew of CHASER on 6-7 Jun 44 as follows:

Sherman Vc 'CHASER' T212703 No.21 2Tp C Sqn 27 CAR
Lt Ian Aldous MacLean - Tp Ldr & Tk Comdr
Tpr? William Redmond - Dvr
Tpr A.J. Steer M-104013 - Gnr or L.O.
Tpr H. Thistle D-47054 - Gnr or L.O.
Here's another photo of Ian MacLean, although he is somewhat hard to recognize :
http://mapleleafup.tumblr.com/post/3...ooke-fusiliers

Finally, Lt MacLean's picture (from the first link above):


Michel

Last edited by MicS; 09-01-18 at 11:07. Reason: Corrected typo pointed out by Jack Geratic
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  #9  
Old 07-01-18, 00:12
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default Authie

Great detective work!

Are you going to petition the Department of National Defence's Directorate of History and Heritage to change the Battle Honour from Authie to Franqueville?
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Old 09-01-18, 06:05
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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This is great stuff.

Just to confirm , Chaser was C squadron, because a couple posts above it has been put as B squadron??

regards,
Jack
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Old 09-01-18, 11:09
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Jack,

You are perfectly right, this is a typo on my part. I have now corrected my error.

Thanks for noticing!

Michel
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Old 09-01-18, 17:28
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Hi Michel, no problem, and thank you.

regards,
Jack
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Old 14-01-18, 04:22
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http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2302
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Old 14-01-18, 14:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m kenny View Post
All accounts I have read put B Squadron 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment east of Buron and C Squadron west of them. However Wochenschnau 719 June 16 1944

https://youtu.be/1pSew20P2M4?t=5m14s

shows M4s 'Blitz' and 'Chaser' knocked out within yards of each other.
Be careful with your interpretation of that film. The Germans edited together film clips from different locations and time periods to make that film. For example neither 12ss nor 21st Panzer used Stug IIIs. The Pz IV 415 is not 12ss. In 12ss the 4th company was a Panther Company and not Pz IVs. The Pz IV Companies were numbered 5 to 9. On some other sites I seen some of the Shermans in the film identified as being British tanks KOed at later dates.
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Old 16-01-18, 03:01
m kenny m kenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John McGillivray View Post
Be careful with your interpretation of that film. The Germans edited together film clips from different locations and time periods to make that film.
Once you have stripped all the Newsreels for Normandy you know this is spades. For instance they use the exact same clip of a KV tank being attacked in no less than 4 different newsreels from 'Normandy'. I am fairly confident the scenes with the German Paras in the hedges were all shot the same day and then used as fillers in at least 6 newsreeels.
I know all the pitfalls. My one golden rule is if it was shown in Newsreel 4 that aired on June 28 then there is no dispute it was filmed before June 28. Thus anything in Newsreel 719 shown on June 16 was shot between June 6-16 in theory but in practical terms June 6-10th.
If a Sherman is shown knocked out in my film then there is no possibility is was knocked out 'at a later date'.
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Old 18-01-18, 20:22
MicS MicS is offline
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Default Another Sherman wreck in the Franqueville-Authie-Buron area

I do believe that this is a Sherbrooke tank, if only because 'B' Sqn in both 1H and FGH were all DD tanks, and if this photo was not shot on 7 June but later and this is a replacement tank, it probably would not have had the Sqn symbol painted on, or at least not in this nice way.

First, a close-up:


Next, two versions of another view of this tank, cropped slightly differently:


The above two photos stiched together:


A comparison with a panorama with CHASER and the two large barns in the background:


Finally, a photo shot from further away, credited to a German tank commander who claimed the kill (W. Kretzschmar in Pz IV No.536):


This of course is to take with much precaution, as are all similar claims, especially by SS men. The date however is perhaps less questionable, and if correct this would mean this is indeed another of the Sherbrooke 'B' Sqn tanks KO'd that day. This would also fit with the series of photos shot by a German KB on that day, showing BLITZ, CHASER etc.

The presence of a concrete pylon should mean that the wreck is either on a road (maybe the track behind the tank) or very close to one, possibly the road between CUSSY and FRANQUEVILLE. If the barn behind is indeed the one just south of AUTHIE, then the tank should be somewhere along the red line, possibly inside the red circle here - or maybe under the "German Gun Position" label?


One thing that bothers me, apart from the lack of a visible wreck inside the circle, is the treeline behind the barn. If we could see some trees on an extension of this aerial view towards the northwest I would be a bit more satisfied with this theory.

Finding out whose tank this is does not look easy, because so many Sherbrooke tanks were lost this day...

Michel
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Old 19-01-18, 02:54
m kenny m kenny is offline
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https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/telecharger?x=-0.437284&y=49.196994&z=16&layer=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSY STEMS.MAPS.SCAN-EXPRESS.STANDARD&demat=DEMAT.PVA$GEOPORTAILEMAT; PHOTOS&missionId=missions.4154553

Last edited by m kenny; 19-01-18 at 03:01.
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Old 19-01-18, 03:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS View Post
I do believe that this is a Sherbrooke tank, if only because 'B' Sqn in both 1H and FGH were all DD tanks...
1H and FGH were the assault Regiments which were equipped with DD tanks. SFR was the reserve Regiment whose tanks were fitted for deep wading. SFR did not use DD tanks.
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Old 19-01-18, 12:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John McGillivray View Post
1H and FGH were the assault Regiments which were equipped with DD tanks. SFR was the reserve Regiment whose tanks were fitted for deep wading. SFR did not use DD tanks.
'C' Sqn 1H and 'A' Sqn FGH were equipped with wading, not DD, tanks, which means that on 6 or 7 Jun a wading tank showing, for example, a 'C' Sqn symbol, and only that, might belong to either 1H or SFR. Not so with 'B' Sqn, which can only be SFR (not counting the Fireflies used as CB, two each in 1H and FGH, about which it is not clear whether they carried a Sqn symbol).

Michel
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Old 19-01-18, 17:15
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default 6-7 June 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by John McGillivray View Post
1H and FGH were the assault Regiments which were equipped with DD tanks. SFR was the reserve Regiment whose tanks were fitted for deep wading. SFR did not use DD tanks.
The timeline of the battle was land in the afternoon 6 June. Get themselves out of the bridgehead, which was no small feat. Get past any cut-off German defenders. Get their orders. Pick up North Novies and push towards Buron and Authie. Harbour for the night, then continue south. The NNS and SFR are the only two units with the Authie battle honour.

In my estimation, there would not have been much opportunity to lose a Sherman, except through breakdown which would have necessitate a replacement. Was the rest of the regiment's echelon even landed by 7 June?

It is important to remember that even though the SFR lost most of its Fireflies and several 75mm Shermans, the 7 June battle was not the only action in that sector. I don't have my copy of the war diary at hand, but I recall there were several attempts and raids until the German defences were rolled up under sustained pressure 8-9 July. This month of less extensively reported action could be how a replacement tank ended up on the Buron-Authie battlefield.
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Old 13-07-18, 23:31
Bruce worrall Bruce worrall is offline
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Default Damage to Blitz's suspension

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I know this is an old thread... Hopefully folks are still monitoring it.
I'm building a diorama of Blitz being inspected by 12SS personnel as depicted in the newsreel, and I'm trying to figure out why the damage to the tanks looks different in two parts of the film.
In the screenshots posted at the beginning of this thread showing Blitz side-on there is no damage to the suspension on the left side of the tank, other than the rubber being burned off of the two rear road wheels.
Later in the video the left front-most suspension assembly is shown completely torn apart, with the second road wheel missing. This is definitely Blitz, as the camera pans up from the damage to show the name on the hull.
Any thoughts on the disparity?

Last edited by Bruce worrall; 13-07-18 at 23:33. Reason: Attaching image
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Old 14-07-18, 05:14
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Hi Bruce, could it be the Germans set off a few more explosives to make it not worthwhile for the Canadians to recover Blitz?

regards,
Jack
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Old 15-07-18, 00:12
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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The damage shown in the photo in post 21 is almost certainly a HE hit on the roadwheel or a demolition charge. The hull side is pushed inwards and the floor is displaced downwards. A mine would have pushed the floor upwards. The bogie wheel has vanished, taking with it the suspension arms, which are very robust. The mangled arms that you see are the spreader bars that pivot on the spring seat that the two volute springs push down onto. If that is the left front bogie the return roller and bracket have also been torn off as they should be attached to the rear of the bogie casting. Also the tank was not moving at the time of the explosion as the track is damaged directly below where the wheel was.

I think that Jack is spot on !

David
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Old 19-07-18, 13:46
Bruce worrall Bruce worrall is offline
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Default Damage to Blitz

Thanks folks. Sounds plausible that the Germans did this damage to Blitz after it had been knocked out/abandoned. A demolition charge to the front VVSS assembly sounds most plausible, as I would imagine it would take a lot of force to blow the arms apart and remove the road wheel. It also appears that the fire damage to the rear two road wheels may have also been caused by a German attempt to burn the tank, as there is a gerrycan visible on the rear deck immediately above the fire damage... I can't imagine that the crew would have put it there, as the historical accounts above make it sound like they bailed out quickly. The interesting thing is that the German newsreel shows Blitz's suspension intact, and then shows the tank with the damage described, meaning that the film crew was there long enough to film the after-effects of the attempt to render the tank unrecoverable.

Last edited by Bruce worrall; 20-07-18 at 16:26.
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Old 27-08-18, 15:59
Bruce worrall Bruce worrall is offline
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Location: Kingston ON
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Default "Blitz" kit finished

Based on the amazing info in this thread I've tried my hand at converting a Dragon Firefly into Blitz. Hope to add this to a diorama with the Germans in the captured UC per the video. Thanks to all who provided so much detailed info. Haven't built a kit in 30 years +, so it's far from perfect lol.
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Old 27-08-18, 16:57
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario
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Hi Bruce, looks great thus far, and look forward to seeing more.

The census number looks to be in the small side - what height did you use for the numbers? Regulation size would have the height at 3.5 inches, or about 2.54mm in 1/35 scale.

regards,
Jack
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