M38A1 CDN in goat pasture

[TonyRoper]

I had been looking for an old Willys flatfender for a little while, intending to use it for mountain roads and the occasional Saturday cruise. A few days ago, I ran across an advertisement for a "1952 or 1953 Willys" but the photo appeared to be an early CJ-5.

The Jeep was only three miles from home, so I went to take a look and ended up bringing it home. The title shows "Ford" as the manufacturer and the data plate was stuffed in a storage compartment.

I have attempted to find original markings below the driver's door, above the data plate, and on the front face of the passenger fender. It appears that most of the outer surface was stripped back to bare metal as light sanding revealed blue paint, then gray primer, then filler, then metal. Hidden surfaces do reveal olive drab paint.

The data plate is very hard to read, but appears to have a delivery date of "1-12-" and the serial number is illegible to my eyes.

I have not yet removed the fabricated front bumper to view any stamping on the front frame horn, but intend to do so soon.

From this limited information, can anyone point me in a useful direction? I intend to restore it to largely original appearance to include original markings. The engine has been swapped to a much later model so a 100 percent restoration would be impractical.

[mel gabel]

The data plate is from the first batch of M38A1 jeeps ordered by the Cdn gov't designated as 1953 models. Note the support hinges for the front grille and the 8 screw tabs on the battery box cover. Body work has been done to remove the slave cable receptacle on the passenger side and the rear body panel has also been extensively modified.

[TonyRoper]

Originally Posted by mel gabel

The data plate is from the first batch of M38A1 jeeps ordered by the Cdn gov't designated as 1953 models. Note the support hinges for the front grille and the 8 screw tabs on the battery box cover. Body work has been done to remove the slave cable receptacle on the passenger side and the rear body panel has also been extensively modified.

The funny thing about the slave cable receptacle - it's still under there. It may be that the entire area covered by primer has been covered by a new skin on top of the old sheet metal.

The rear end does look odd. I thought that the spare tire on the military versions was mounted to the tail rather than the rear corner, and there is supposed to be some sort of rail across the top of the tail area. There may be hard decisions down the road in the build on whether to replace the entire tub vs patching holes. It's not as rusty as I feared, but there are still plenty of small repairs needed.

[David Dunlop]

Hi Tony.

Looks like your data plates have a textured surface on them very much like they got sand blasted. That may have been something done to the entire vehicle and if so, sadly all original markings would be lost. A long shot but is there any original paint inside the glove box? Sometime the Canadian Army Registration Number was stenciled on the inside of the glove box door.

The large patch on the passenger side might have been a solution to significant rust in that area. Since it is the curb side of the vehicle, that side can be prone to excessive salt and sand damage if operated in such conditions a lot.

Also, do any holes for the spare tire mount and jerry can bracket show up on the interior of the back panel? You may have a surviving front bumper lift ring assembly dead centre on the front bumper. If not front, then rear ring.

David

[TonyRoper]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Sometime the Canadian Army Registration Number was stenciled on the inside of the glove box door.

The large patch on the passenger side might have been a solution to significant rust in that area. Since it is the curb side of the vehicle, that side can be prone to excessive salt and sand damage if operated in such conditions a lot.

Also, do any holes for the spare tire mount and jerry can bracket show up on the interior of the back panel? You may have a surviving front bumper lift ring assembly dead centre on the front bumper. If not front, then rear ring.

David

Thanks for the tips. I had not paid attention to the interior of the glove compartment other than cleaning out a few wasp nests, so I went out and checked. The inside of the door is OD green, and has no lettering.

The interior of the back panel is completely smooth with the exception of two 1/4" holes for the license plate. That info, along with the location of the spare tire mount, causes me to think that a lot of things have changed since it left service.

I think you are correct about the lift ring, as it looks very much like ones seen in other photos. The front bumper is an interesting bit of fabrication and it seems to be very well-made... but it will need to go away along with the monstrous tow bar. I intend to cut off the lift ring and restore it to the original location, as well as attempt to find a match for the other side.

The more I look at the patch work on the passenger side, I am convinced that a patch panel was welded in place over the original metal. There is a change in thickness a few inches below the windshield and it carries all the way to the bottom. I think it will come off as time permits, and will be patched to include the dish for the power port.

[David Dunlop]

Sounds like the rear panel has been completely replaced then. Almost like somebody was trying very hard to make this M38A1 look like its civilian CJ5 counterpart.

When you get a chance, take a close look underneath the body in the left rear corner. There would have been a trailer cable socket with a spring loaded lid mounted roughly 6 inches below the top edge of the rear body in that area and it would have been fed by a fairly hefty branch of the wiring harness. If the original panel is gone you should only find a stub of the harness, unless it has been replaced as well. As well, aft of the rear differential underneath, fastened to the frame you might find a metal bracket, flat, with a bend in it and a roughly 0ne inch hole. This was to mount a small convoy lamp that shone on the rear cover plate of the differential. The entire rear of the differential cover plate, or a vertical central strip of it would have been painted white to show up in the dark. The convoy light switch would have been mounted on the dash in the lower left hand corner with a rectangular ID plate around it. Typically a bat style toggle switch, vertically oriented.

I ran across an M38CDN here in town years ago at a local marina. It had a very similar set up of front and rear ball hitches on it and was used an a hack vehicle to move boat trailers around the yard.

I see a couple of base plates on the forward ends to the rear wheel wells. Probably for a homemade top assembly at one time. On either side, in the triangular recesses, there would have been brackets to hold the original military top bow assembly when the top was up. A second set of brackets (different style) were bolted to the upper sides close to the front of the wheel wells. These secured the top bows when in the stored position with the canvas removed.

Sorry. I guess I just padded up your things to look into list.

David

[TonyRoper]

Thanks for the input. No worries, currently entries to the list are welcome as I am ignorant of most details, and am here to learn.

In the upper rear portion of the driver rear fender, I do see a covered hole that was possibly for the trailer wiring connector:



It does have a convoy lamp switch, but it is mounted horizontally under the instruments towards the passenger side. Looking at the holes, I suspect it may have been mounted where the headlight switch currently is.



Underneath, I didn't get a very good shot since there were ants present...

[TonyRoper]

Update: My copy of Mr. Iarocci's book arrived today which gives me some idea about the various markings. There are a few examples of in-service vehicles with the spare tire relocated, so maybe it happened during service.

I did pull the front bumper to see if I could locate any stampings on the frame horn. They're either too faint to read or don't exist. There was a "283L" on the outside of the rail, and a "283R" on the opposite rail. Back to the drawing board.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Andrew's book is sadly a little light. There are a couple of M38A1 Facebook Groups which are populated (polluted?) with strong willed folks kicking life into their now 50 plus year old rides. Yours, of course gets another generation added!

[TonyRoper]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Andrew's book is sadly a little light. There are a couple of M38A1 Facebook Groups which are populated (polluted?) with strong willed folks kicking life into their now 50 plus year old rides. Yours, of course gets another generation added!

Due to work constraints, Facebook and most other social media is not an option for me. Hopefully I can find what I need on regular forums.

The book did answer one of my first questions, now I know which front bumper to fit.

Maybe one day I can track down a service number. Failing that, I may just use "53-3xxxx and fudge the last digits of the VIN or some such.

[David Dunlop]

Tony, your vehicles Canadian Army Registration Number 53-3XXXX would normally be stamped in approx. 1/4-inch numbers on the top of the left side frame rail somewhere forward of the grill assembly. I think the reasoning as that the frame rail would be a reasonably permanent location. The frame horn could get damaged and be replaced, taking the number record with it.

David

[TonyRoper]

I managed to drag the front bumper off and went at the driver frame horn with a wire brush. The only impression I can see is what appears to be a punch mark.

This area was directly in contact with the bumper above and may have been pitted into oblivion.

[TonyRoper]

I saw an example of frame horn stamping that doesn't look as if it got much past the paint. That number may be long gone.

The data plate is very damaged, presumably from sandblasting. I have been trying ink and polish to get some contrast out of the numbers but results have not been encouraging.

I think the serial number may be 20065x. Is there anyone skilled at reading the damaged plates that I can send this to?

Edit: Got out a *good* camera with an ED macro lens and took a bunch of photos using different light and angles.
I am about 85% convinced the last digit is an 8, making the serial F-200658. Will that get me any closer to a service number?

Thanks - Tony

[Frank v R]

try using paint and 3M pad lightly on the frame , even in the photo looks like it is there,

[TonyRoper]

Originally Posted by Frank v R

try using paint and 3M pad lightly on the frame , even in the photo looks like it is there,

Thanks for the call and input yesterday. I hit the frame horn with some flat black and am letting it dry. I'm not optimistic looking at the area. On the underside of the bumper where contact is made with the frame rails, there is a 1-2mm deposit of pitted, crystallized rust.

On a semi-productive note, I did a little exploratory work on the passenger door area and found the edge of the dog dish. It was under about 9mm of filler and had been welded over. About then, my cordless tool ran out of juice. I'll return to the area with a respirator, grinder and flap wheel and lose 30 pounds of filler.

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by TonyRoper

...It was under about 9mm of filler and had been welded over. About then, my cordless tool ran out of juice. I'll return to the area with a respirator, grinder and flap wheel and lose 30 pounds of filler.

That's a lot of filler Tony! I found using a heat gun and a scraper was a good way to get old filler off (in large chunks). If you want to save on making 30lbs of dust, that might be an option. Who knows what treasure you will find hidden in that save receptacle dish.

Hopefully the paint and 3M pad works for the CFR number. Frank obviously has better eyes than me, because I don't see it...haha.

[TonyRoper]

Doesn't look too good so far. I took a couple of high resolution photos of the frame horn. First is the frame horn, second is the area on the bumper that was in contact, flipped horizontally to make any numerals readable.

Frame Horn

Inside of Bumper

[Frank v R]

if this doesn't work , last thing you can do is what the cops do on guns to get the serial numbers up after they have been ground down , from what I hear it works most of the time, if there is nothing it may be RCAF,

[TonyRoper]

I'll check around and see if I can get my hands on some nital etchant. Some part of me is beginning to think I have a Ford M38A1 CDN body stuck on a Willys M38A1 frame. A fellow on another board indicated the serial number on my title may belong to a Willys, manufactured September 1953.

[Frank v R]

check the frame for the convoy light and or holes from that light, I don't think that the frame and body are from different vehicles,

[TonyRoper]

Originally Posted by Frank v R

check the frame for the convoy light and or holes from that light, I don't think that the frame and body are from different vehicles,

Where exactly would the tab be mounted? I have seen a photo with the lamp in the rear of the passenger frame rail and also inside the V brace towards the rear.

Photos of both areas below:

[Frank v R]

I'll check one of mine , you can also check the rear diff cover for the white paint strip

[Andrew Iarocci]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Andrew's book is sadly a little light. There are a couple of M38A1 Facebook Groups which are populated (polluted?) with strong willed folks kicking life into their now 50 plus year old rides. Yours, of course gets another generation added!

At the time I wrote the book, the word limit for Service Pubs pamphlets was (sadly?) just 6,000 words. I did my best to work in a reasonable sampling of the available archival materials for the sake of the hobby. Anyone who wishes is free to order up the archival materials at Library and Archives Canada and attempt something more comprehensive.