Did Canadian army in ETO use 4x2 CMPs?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

By the way did the canadian army in ETO ever used 4x2 trucks ? The CZ42 number is pure fantasy .
By what I figured out with Bart Vanderveen all the 4x2 contracts were for the British army , numbers started all with Z444..
Does anybody have wartime oictures of 4x2`s in Canadian service?

Maurice,

I rember we discussed this recently. I am sure David H., our resident Historian, can come up with good solid info on contracts etc.

All I know is that the Canadian units which went over to France in 1940 were equipped with brand new Ford F15 4x2 (and remotely possibly Chevrolet???) trucks - see CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France.

Groet,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's an F15 4x2 in Antwerp. Although it was captured on film by a Canadian unit, it could of course also be a British truck. At least this could help to get the discussion on this subject going. . .

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

F15 in Antwerp with what looks like a British 15-cwt body (as found on Bedford MW's and the like)?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an F15 4x2 in Antwerp. Although it was captured on film by a Canadian unit, it could of course also be a British truck. At least this could help to get the discussion on this subject going. . .

. . . as this picture shows the same type of CMP in May 1945. This definitely is a Canadian Army truck as only (a) Canadian unit(s) liberated my home town.

Hillegom bevrijd CMP.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

our resident Historian

That's made my day!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is in fact a very interesting and useful query. The answers are:

1. Ford F.15 and Chevrolet C.15 trucks were the first off the assembly lines at Southampton May 1940. 4x4 15-cwt versions followed some months later.
2. C.8 and presumably F.8 production commenced shortly after the 4x2 15-cwt trucks.
3. C.8 production at Oshawa, and I am guessing F.8 production at Windsor, terminated in 'Late 1941', in favour of 4x4 variants.
4. There is no evidence yet as to when 4x2 15-cwt production ended but I am sure that Dr Gregg suggested that they were 'obsolete' in Canadian service by 1944. I can find no record in my database of Canadian 4x2 trucks in 1943 Model Year.
5. The last known 4x2 truck that I know of was a C.15 assembled on November 16th 1943. That was to British order, S/M 6050 which was it seems the last GM order for 4x2 trucks.

However, I am not sure whether the F.602S and F.602L 4x2 lorries were used by the Canadians....they were of course 4x2 CMPs!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

. . . as this picture shows the same type of CMP in May 1945. This definitely is a Canadian Army truck as only (a) Canadian unit(s) liberated my home town.

Hanno, this business of studying old trucks has a different emotional impact when you put it that way. Which regiment(s)?

[George McKenzie]

I have an original Department of National Defences instruction book. Fifth Edition , printed July 1941 by General Motors of Canada for the, 8CWT 4x2,15CWT4x2, 15CWT 4x4,30CWT4x4,3TON4x4 ,FA GUN Tractor 4x4.Would this mean they usde the 8CWT 4x2 CMPs inthe war ?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Both C.8 and F.8 initially to my knowledge.

There is of course a photo of a F[?].15 in Dr Gregg's book when it mentions that they were obsolete.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Caption:
"D-DAY.nChevrolet CMP C60,CMP No.13-cabbed, 3-Ton Covered Fixedside-bodied 4x4 General Service Freight Lorry, at Pont L'Eveque, circa 10 miles from Deauville, D-Day plus 4:-"

D-DAYChevroletCMPC60CMPNo13-cabbed3-TonCoveredFixedside-bodied4x4GeneralServiceFreightLorryatPon.jpg

Source: http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/view...?f=35&t=114300

[jakob]

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by jakob

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

Indeed the caption "C60" is wrong, but it is a 4x2 C15....take a close look at the front axle:

[jakob]

Yes hanno jou are right. it's a 4x2 Model C15 15cwt like mine.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On p. 246 of Les Freaty's British Military Trucks of WW2 I found this interesting picture of a Ford CMP F15 4x2 truck fitted with a British-built cargo body.

My hypothesis is that these trucks were originally assembled as Truck, 15-cwt, 4x2, AA, Mk II, more often referred to as a 15-cwt Polsten AA truck (or similar).
When due to Allied air superiority this type of AA truck was not needed anymore, they were re-bodied with GS type bodies commonly found on British 15-cwt trucks.

image.jpg

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Originally Posted by jakob

Sorry richt truck on the picture is a C15a 4x4 15cwt version.....

Sorry Jakob, but it is a 4x2, look close at the front axle at the left front wheel, but I think it is British.

Hendrik

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another surviving F15, this one was sold last year at the Honychurch auction in the UK and now resides in the Netherlands, awaiting a lengthy rebuild:

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an F15 4x2 in Antwerp. Although it was captured on film by a Canadian unit, it could of course also be a British truck. At least this could help to get the discussion on this subject going. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teb8KUb3UuE&t=323s

I was looking at the same footage yesterday. The white bar on top of the AoS indicates corps troops. "54" Transport company. Maybe British XXX Corps???

Alex

F15 Antwerp.jpg XXX_Corps_(UK)_Logo.gif

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I was looking at the same footage yesterday. The white bar on top of the AoS indicates corps troops. "54" Transport company. Maybe British XXX Corps???

It may well be!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's a 4x2 15-cwt CMP in action in the province of Drenthe, the Netherlands.

According to the caption these are vehicles of the Belgian 5th SAS Regiment. In that case, the picture must have been taken during Operation Larkswood (read more here: https://www.saak.nl/battlefield%20to...herst%20en.htm).

The Belgian SAS were supporting 2nd Canadian Corps during that Operation. As far as I know the SAS did not have 15-cwt trucks, so possibly it belonged to a unit from 2nd Canadian Corps.

AKL500715.jpg

Caption: A motorized column of the Belgian SAS Para Regiment operating in the north of the Netherlands, equipped with Jeeps equipped with air target machine guns.
Place: Oosterhesselen, Drenthe, the Netherlands

Souce: https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/m...1-13966e870614

[David Dunlop]

That would make an interesting ‘Then and Now” photo set, Hanno, if the location could be traced.

There are probably not many roads in that area with a rail line crossing it at such a sharp angle, followed almost immediately by a spur line that seems to head off parallel to the road.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Canadian troops on the Market Square, Middelburg, The Netherlands, 1945. Note the Terrapins, DUKW and CMP 4x2 truck.

bd7c3be80fb39bd4ca01ded9157921c981b8894e7e922297a590e5372e97012e.jpg

Source: https://digitaal.dezb.nl/foto/c59ea5...0-cb43733749f8

[David Herbert]

Great photo Hanno.
I have never seen a photo of Terrapins in action and there are four in that picture !
Kevin Wheatcroft used to have one (no idea if he still has it) and that is the only one I have ever seen.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello David,

Reportedly Terrapins were used extensively during the Battle for the Scheldt. While M29C Weasels proved to be worthless, the bigger amphibians like LVT, DUKW and Terrapin proved to be decisive for the operations.

Here's another picture taken in Middelburg during November 1944. You can find more here: https://digitaal.dezb.nl/beeldbank/s...field=terrapin

Not sure Mr. Wheatcroft still has the Terrapin, I read he is currently having ten(!) Sherman tanks restored. Hopefully he will (also) spend his resources on a really rare vehicles like the Terrapin ;-)

H.


849543af7f9795d7edbd811e3566d1b95453a69c04096b76be613767fccc4986.jpg

Source: https://digitaal.dezb.nl/foto/0932ca...c-634b75bf90ec

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Look at the right, an F15 4x2 in British service in Normandy.

Caption: "British Sherman Firefly on a road in France 27th July 1944"

8357079759_408c345332_o_resized.jpg
Source: https://flic.kr/p/dJudE4

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Looks like a Chevrolet C15 4x2, but I cannot discern the type of Cab.

"Allied column, between Delft and the Hoornbrug bridge in Rijswijk. Date: 8 May 1945."

HGA001860246.jpg
Source: https://haagsgemeentearchief.nl/medi...d-cb3cf452b570


Next picture shows it crossing the Hoornbrug bridge at Rijswijk. After WW2 my mother's family lived in one of the houses behind the bridge on the left.

HGA001860247.jpg
Source: https://haagsgemeentearchief.nl/medi...d-a05304b9a164

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here’s a photo of a pair of 4x2 CMPs in Bayeux (via Bruno Bamdé):

973264B4-D1DF-49A7-BFB5-D3917133AF22.jpeg

[Alex van de Wetering]

F15 4x2 in Haarlem may 1945. According to the description the truck is part of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. The 1st Canadian Infantry division Formation can be seen on the nose.

F15 Cab13 Princess Patricia HAARLEM.JPG {C92F98E8-7177-4EE5-B182-D61F5CB73DF2}_0.jpg
source:noord-hollandsarchief.nl
https://hdl.handle.net/21.12102/C92F...82D61F5CB73DF2


The Census number "4982034" is described as "M/E" (middle east) in the Chilwell list. 4970101-4990100 M/E "Various types".

The same photographer took two more pictures, one showing the jeep in front of...and the other also showing the jeep with the Ford in the Background.


https://hdl.handle.net/21.12102/FDA9...AC13EFEEAD5A8F

{D4203A45-A8C4-4D54-AA1E-74951EBEB73D}_0.jpg
https://hdl.handle.net/21.12102/D420...1E74951EBEB73D

The jeep has a formation sign with number "76"; 5th Canadian Field Ambulance??

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

F15 4x2 in Haarlem may 1945. According to the description the truck is part of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. The 1st Canadian Infantry division Formation can be seen on the nose.
*snip*
The Census number "4982034" is described as "M/E" (middle east) in the Chilwell list. 4970101-4990100 M/E "Various types".

Great find, Alex! Possibly an ex-Italian theatre vehicle?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Possibly an ex-Italian theatre vehicle?

Most likely Hanno; 1st Can Inf Div after transfer from Italy. Possibly previously owned by another Allied force (?).....shame we can't see what style of body is fitted!