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  #1  
Old 15-02-05, 15:25
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default PVT.Eddie Smith..

Here may be a chance to get Lake Winnipeg changed to Lake Pvt. Eddie Smith...

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../15/c4218.html

Quote:
The Manitoba Government initiated a permanent source of recognition for
casualties of that province by naming a number of geographic sites after them.
The book tells the stories of many of these soldiers and offers insightful
information about their special locations on our country's map.


THe full story...

Cliff Chadderton memoir a gut-wrenching account of Second World War
OTTAWA, Feb. 15 /CNW Telbec/ - "To me, the history of the Royal Winnipeg
Rifles will always be about the men. I think their stories must be told," said
War Amps Chief Executive Officer Cliff Chadderton on the release today of his
gut-wrenching account of the Second World War stories of the men of the RWR.
Excuse Us! Herr Schicklgruber follows the harrowing adventures of these
young men who enlisted in the army from all walks of life to fight against
Nazi tyranny. Their stories are frightening, funny, tragic and miraculous.
"2005 has been named the Year of the Veteran. This memoir commemorates
the 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War and is a sincere
tribute to those who served in the military forces, the Merchant Navy and the
homefront," Chadderton said.
Cliff Chadderton is a familiar figure to Canadians for his work with The
War Amps and at the forefront of veterans' issues. An officer with the RWR, he
knew each of the men under his command, watched them develop into highly-
trained infantrymen and perform bravely under extreme wartime conditions. He
also watched as many of them died doing their duty as soldiers in the Canadian
Army.
A must-read for students of Canada's wartime military exploits, Excuse
Us! Herr Schicklgruber gives insight into the personalities, feelings and
hopes of these young men, some teenagers, who fought against terrible odds. It
follows them to their date with destiny on the shores of Normandy on
June 6th, 1944. Chadderton lost many friends in that battle. Finally, on
October 10th, 1944, a German hand grenade ended his war. It also inspired him
to dedicate his life to service to his country in the years since the war.
The Manitoba Government initiated a permanent source of recognition for
casualties of that province by naming a number of geographic sites after them.
The book tells the stories of many of these soldiers and offers insightful
information about their special locations on our country's map.

Prominent Canadians have been quick to praise this unique memoir:

"Soldiers' stories are always more enjoyable (and honest) than the
selected reminiscences of the great commanders. Knowing his personality, it
didn't surprise me that Cliff's style makes for most enjoyable reading, not to
mention the inclusion of many lessons in leadership for the current
generation." - Major-General Lewis Mackenzie

"'The greatest generation' was more than a collectivity, they were
individuals. Cliff Chadderton is one of those heroes, and in his unique book,
he paints an intimate portrait of these brave men and women. They won a war,
they gave us freedom, they built a nation. Don't miss this unique opportunity
to meet these heroes up close." - Mike Duffy, Broadcaster

"It's the heartfelt attempt of one man, late in his life, to keep alive
at least in memory some of the many Second World War casualties he had to
write letters home about...a collection of column-length essays, including the
funny with the sad." - Dave Brown, The Ottawa Citizen

Part of The War Amps Military Heritage series, Excuse Us! Herr
Schicklgruber is a fitting tribute to those young men who died and to those
who survived to remind us of the horrors of war. It is available through The
War Amps at a cost-recovery price of $10 by calling 1-800-250-3030 or visiting
www.waramps.ca . More information on the memoir can also be found at
www.waramps.ca .

Detailed information including a backgrounder and chapter excerpt can be
found at www.waramps.ca/military/memoir/home.html



For further information: Communications, 1-877-60MEDIA,
communications@waramps.ca
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  #2  
Old 15-02-05, 16:23
Vets Dottir
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Default Re: PVT.Eddie Smith..

Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Blair
Here may be a chance to get Lake Winnipeg changed to Lake Pvt. Eddie Smith...
Hi Alex

Well, EDWARD SMITH LAKE has already been named in honour of my Uncle (if this IS the same Edward Smith to which you refer)

latitude: 55-23-15
longitude: 101-20-15

It's tucked more than halfway up the length of Manitoba near the Saskatchewan border ... near FLIN FLON at KISSISSING LAKE. I regret I didn't have a chance to visit there while I was staying in Winnipeg. Perhaps one day I'll get to visit there ... I more hope to visit his resting place in Beny Sur Mer though, as the lake in Manitoba honours his memory, but he never had any 'life" connection to that area of Manitoba. It's far from "back home" on the south eastern lake Winnipeg shore where he was born and raised, lived.

They used to call Manitoba "Land of 100,000 Lakes" There were SO many Manitoban fallen soldiers ... but there are many, many water places that I'm sure will be blessed with new names of new fallen soldiers ... I love the gesture and the physical tangible public acknowledgement of it. Nice.

Regards Cliff Chadderton's new book ... I hope to read that book. He was in a different Company than my Uncle/s but I'm sure the stories from the soldiers speak the experiences of most of the men who experienced Normandy.

Thanks for this post Alex.

Karmen
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  #3  
Old 15-02-05, 16:40
Vets Dottir
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Default Rifleman Phillip Genaille

Here, also, is the location for Uncle Eddie's brother-inlaw who was KIA 6 JUNE 1944 on JUNO BEACH.

RIFLEMAN PHILLIP GENAILLE H/100967

I don't have the exact location longitude/latitude but
GENAILLE LAKE was named after Uncle Phillip,
who was married to Aunty Anne. Phillips only child,
a son, was born while Phillip was overseas so
father and son never got to meet. sad.

The lake is NE of REINDEER LAKE in Manitoba
and was named in honour of his memory 1972.

By the way, EDWARD SMITH LAKE was named in 1995!!!
Not so long ago at all.

Karmen
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  #4  
Old 15-02-05, 23:01
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Talking Re: PVT.Eddie Smith..

Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Blair
Here may be a chance to get Lake Winnipeg changed to Lake Pvt. Eddie Smith...

Pssst...Alex, me thinks maybe you've been watching to much CBC or CTV....Pvt... is the 'American' short form/abbreviation for Private...in 'Canadian', its: Pte...besides, Eddie was a 'Rifleman' or Rfn......

Cheers

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  #5  
Old 16-02-05, 01:57
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Re: PVT.Eddie Smith..

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Pssst...Alex, me thinks maybe you've been watching to much CBC or CTV....Pvt... is the 'American' short form/abbreviation for Private...in 'Canadian', its: Pte...besides, Eddie was a 'Rifleman' or Rfn......

Cheers

Mark...
Thanks for pointing that out...Me...I was a blue job...AC2..AC1..L.A.C.....Corporal..Sgt..WO...

No Disrespect meant,but I thought there were Privates in the Canadian Army...When we really had and Army ,Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force...Pre 1966...A pox on Paul Hellyer...

Here is the guy that did this to us and now he wants to fix it..

Paul Hellyer started his political career in 1949 as Canada's youngest Member of Parliament. Eight years later he became the youngest Cabinet Minister.

Last year Hellyer was so incensed by the lack of real choice for the electorate that he joined with a coalition of concerned Canadians to form the Canadian Action Party which he now leads.

A man of many interests, Hellyer's ideas are not classroom abstractions. He was born and raised on a farm and his business experience includes manufacturing, retailing, construction, land-development, tourism and publishing.

His multi-faceted career, in addition to a near-lifetime in politics gives Hellyer a rare perspective on what has gone wrong with the economy and the utter folly of Canada's surrendering more of its sovereignty to multinational

THE EVIL EMPIRE: Globalization's Darker Side
by Paul Hellyer
114 pages
$9.95 Softcover
Published by: Chimo Media Limited
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  #6  
Old 18-02-05, 22:32
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Rifleman Smith, Edward

Karmen;

I didn't think you would mind:

Record of Service:

H 42084 Smith, Edward, Rifleman
1st Battalion, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles, C.I.C.

- 26 Dec 1941 - Attested - Military District No. 10 - Winnipeg, Man.

- 26 Dec 1941 - Taken on Strength of No. 10 District Depot (Active Force) - Royal Winnipeg Rifles Wing - Winnipeg, Man.

- 9 Jan 1942 - Attached to A 15 Infantry Advanced Training Centre (Rifle)

- 10 Jan 1942 - Taken on Strength of A 15 Infantry Advanced Training Centre (Rifle) - Shilo, Man.

- 20 Feb 1942 - Stricken off Strength of A 15 Infantry Advanced Training Centre (Rifle)

- 21 Feb 1942 - Taken on Strength of No. 10 District Depot (Active Force) - Cameron Highlanders of Canada Wing - Winnipeg, Man.

- 25 Feb 1942 - Transferred from the Cameron Highlanders of Canada Wing to Headquarters, No. 10 District Depot (Active Force) - Winnipeg, Man.

- 21 Apr 1942 - Stricken off Strength of No. 10 District Depot (Canadian Army) on transfer to No. 22 Canadian Army Educational (Basic) Training Centre - North Bay, Ont.

- 22 Apr 1942 - Taken on Strength of No. 22 Canadian Army Educational (Basic) Training Centre - North Bay, Ont.

- 20 Aug 1942 - Allocated to the Royal Winnipeg Rifles - No. 10 District Depot (Canadian Army)

- 25 Aug 1942 - Stricken off Strength of No. 22 Canadian Army Educational (Basic) Training Centre - North Bay, Ont

- 26 Aug 1942 - Taken on Strength of A 15 Canadian Infantry Training Centre - Shilo, Man. (and designated a 'Reinforcement')

- 2 Dec 1942 - Stricken off Strength of A 15 Canadian Infantry Training Centre - Shilo, Man.

- 13 Dec 1942 - Stricken off Strength of Canadian Army (Canada) - upon Embarkation

- 14 Dec 1942 - Taken on Strength of Canadian Army (Overseas) - as a Reinforcement for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

- 18 Dec 1942 - Disembarkation in United Kingdom

- 19 Dec 1942 - Taken on Strength of 3rd Canadian Divisional Infantry Reinforcement Unit - in UK

- 31 Jan 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 3rd Canadian Divisional Infantry Reinforcement Unit

- 1 Feb 1943 - Taken on Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit - in UK

- 24 Feb 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit

- 25 Feb 1943 - Taken on Strength of 2nd Greek Battalion - in UK

- 17 Mar 1943 - Taken on Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit - in UK

- 18 Mar 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 2nd Greek Battalion

- 27 Apr 1943 - Stricken off Strength of 2nd Canadian Infantry Reinforcement Unit

- 28 Apr 1943 - Taken on Strength of Royal Winnipeg Rifles - in UK

- 15 Jan 1944 - Awarded the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal and Clasp

- 1 Jun 1944 - Embarkation - UK

- 6 Jun 1944 - Disembarkation - France

- 8 Jun 1944 - Reported Missing - Stricken off Strength of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles - France

- 9 Jun 1944 - Taken on Strength of X-6 List (Missing - RWR)

- 7 Jun 1945 - Stricken off Strength of X-6 List (Missing - RWR) - confirmed killed 8 June, 1944 - France

Note: I have corrected this post to reflect a mistake I made when I first posted it, I missed the date of 7 June, 1945 as being the date that it was reflected on Edward's Record of Service that he was confirmed killed on 8 Jun 44 and he was SOS of the X-6 List (MIssing - RWR), with effect 7 June, 1945
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  #7  
Old 18-02-05, 23:08
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Post Award of War Service Medals - Rifleman Smith, Edward

On 22 August 1946 the following War Service Medals were awarded to H 42084 Smith, Edward Rfmn: -

1939-45 Star
France-Germany Star
Defence Medal
War Medal

based on service in:

Canada from 26 Dec 41 to 13 Dec 42
United Kingdom from 14 Dec 42 to 1 Jun 44
Northwest Europe from 2 Jun 44 to 8 Jun 44 - KIA

Edward had already been awarded the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal and Clasp on 15 January, 1944.
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  #8  
Old 18-02-05, 23:10
Vets Dottir
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Default Thanks you!

MARK,

Thank you ... (is this what you also just sent me as an attachment that I can't open as yet? )

And absolutely "No ... I don't mind at all." This story is an MLU group participaction thing ... it belongs in here as in a way, it's at home. WW2 Soldiers and soldiering is what MLU is all about and none of my Uncle's story would be known probably if I hadn't found my way into MLU

Now ... I'll get back to you and may even have a question or two for anyone to try and answer for me

BTW ... Uncle Eddie tried to enlist a few months prior to his acceptance and he was rejected (if you'll remember my mentioning it) for "sugar". We have many diabetics in our family.

Have to run for now... and thanks a lot Mark ... I really appreciate how you put everything so chronilogical simply for me , even if I don't understand the meanings of lots still.

I'll be back

Karmen
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  #9  
Old 18-02-05, 23:36
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Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) is offline
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Default

Hey Mark.... you forgot the AWLs....

I would have liked to have known this fiesty young bugger...
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  #10  
Old 19-02-05, 00:18
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Hey Mark.... you forgot the AWLs....

I would have liked to have known this fiesty young bugger...
Hi Geoff;

Me thinks he had his own key , besides, our posts can only be so big and I don't think the system here can take it if I tried to post all that info.

......Sergeant-Major, MARCH THE GUILTY F**KER IN!!!!!.......

Cheers
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  #11  
Old 19-02-05, 00:47
Vets Dottir
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Well hey there you guys, back home Uncle Eddie had a rep as "Oh he was a REAL that one!" stressed with a lot of goodnatured and loud laughter I DO know that if Uncle Ed was anything like many of the relatives, he probably would have had the guys in stitches. He had an inclination to give into practical jokes ... some on the receiving end got choked sometimes Toss in the ability to laugh at our human silliness, including (his) own and hey ... we really are a silly bunch of mammals sometimes.

God ... I wish I could have known him in person. He would have been a gas ... and I'd have been overjoyed to show him how highly I think of him.
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  #12  
Old 19-02-05, 01:04
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Post Re: Conduct Sheet

Quote:
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Hey Mark.... you forgot the AWLs....

I would have liked to have known this fiesty young bugger...
Previous sheet destroyed after six months service 26/6/42
Date of last entry on previous sheet 28/2/42

Conduct Sheet: H 42084 Smith, Edward

Sheet No. 1:

Place: Winnipeg
Date of Offence: 13/4/42
Offence: AWL 2 days, 2 hours from 0830hrs 13/4/42 to 1030hrs 15/4/42
Punishment Awarded: 168 hours detention and forfeiture of 10 days pay total
Date punishment awarded: 16/4/42
By whom awarded: Maj. Hansell
Granted remission of sentence of 48 hours, date of release with remission 20/4/42

Place: Shilo
Date of Offence: 2/11/42
Offence: AWL 9 days, 4 hours
Punishment Awarded: 10 days detention and forfeiture of 20 days pay total
Date punishment awarded: 11/11/42
By whom awarded: Lt-Col RL Mitchell

Place: Field (UK)
Date of Offence: 24/3/44
Offence: AWL 2 days, 4 hours
Punishment Awarded: 10 days field punishment and forfeiture of 12 days pay total
Date punishment awarded: 31/3/44
By whom awarded: Lt-Col JM Meldram
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  #13  
Old 19-02-05, 01:35
Vets Dottir
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I really don't know how I'm supposed to think and feel about his AWL's??? I was shocked when I first saw this in his records ... but I've been told from several quarters that there were many who went AWL ( didn't get home in time after the party sort of thing) or (transportation failed or didn't jive with times to be back etc) But I see he was sometimes DAYS late ... not a few hours.

Was AWL typical for many? I mean the ... EFFIT, I ain't goin' back as it ain't necessary YET" ??? ... as some have said to me?
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Old 19-02-05, 01:49
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Post Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Was AWL typical for many? I mean the ... EFFIT, I ain't goin' back as it ain't necessary YET" ??? ... as some have said to me?
For some, more so than others Karmen. Hopefully Norm will see this thread, he my have some information regarding soldiers and AWL, himself having served 1939-1945 (46)

Cheers
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Old 19-02-05, 02:07
Vets Dottir
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Default Re: Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
For some, more so than others Karmen. Hopefully Norm will see this thread, he my have some information regarding soldiers and AWL, himself having served 1939-1945 (46)

Cheers
Thanks MARK, I hope NORM jumps in here then ... or my Drambuie friend ART JOHNSON.

I think that no matter what the reasons for AWL's ... my Uncle enlisted of his own free will and was there (overseas) voluntarily and he went right to an unjustified death in an unfair "fight". He wasn't even allowed to fight a real war to the death, as war intended, and that is one of the things that blows my mind about the executions. I ALWAYS feel like these men were ripped off of dieing as soldiers are meant to if they must die ... in a fair fight, no-one defenseless ... FAIR. But ... these men had their freedoms to do that stolen. THAT bites me most.

I think here, also, of the ages of so many soldiers then ... 19 - 20 - 21 (Uncle Ed, as you all know by now, was only 21 when executed) He was 19 in that photo... as was my Dad in his photo.

I wonder how many of the "kids" who enlisted never had a clue as to what things would REALLY be like... these were't "career" soldiers .... they were just young men who jumped in when needed, for whatever reasons.

Yes ... I hope others jump in here who were "there" and give some words about all this AWL business

Karmen
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Old 19-02-05, 02:28
Mark W. Tonner's Avatar
Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Re: Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I wonder how many of the "kids" who enlisted never had a clue as to what things would REALLY be like...
Probably every single one of them Karmen. Battle Drills and training with live rounds and ordnance and all the other 'bells and whistles' thrown in to make training as close to the real thing as possible....pale in comparison to the real thing.. blank rounds don't kill or wound, but live rounds do; Artillery simulators (or something similar) don't leave gapping holes in the ground or sheer off limbs, but live Arty rounds do; Thunder flashes (or something similar to simulate grenades) don't fragment into pieces to kill and maim, but the live grenades did.

The majority Karmen, never had a clue as to what the real thing would be like.
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Old 19-02-05, 02:44
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Probably every single one of them Karmen. Battle Drills and training with live rounds and ordnance and all the other 'bells and whistles' thrown in to make training as close to the real thing as possible....pale in comparison to the real thing.. blank rounds don't kill or wound, but live rounds do; Artillery simulators (or something similar) don't leave gapping holes in the ground or sheer off limbs, but live Arty rounds do; Thunder flashes (or something similar to simulate grenades) don't fragment into pieces to kill and maim, but the live grenades did.

The majority Karmen, never had a clue as to what the real thing would be like.
Thats what I figure and how the hell could they. You can't know anything really until you've walked the walk on the real path. The reality of everything ... in the case of Uncle Eddie, my understanding is that he (and the rest of them who landed) had had no direct experience of real live action, events, and intensity of overwhelming emotions. Normandy was their FIRST experience action ... nothing but having been through similar can really prepare anyone for the realities.

I wonder, all the time, had Uncle Ed come home, had he survived all the action ... come back home to the rural fishing farming community totally isolated from the men he served with ... (except for my Uncles and others who DID make it home) how unreal and strange it would have been to be planted back in "normal" life ... being so separated from everyone who was there with you and understands ... well ... now I'm getting really heavy here, but war is a heavy thing that has heavy impact.

I think I'd better go giggle with the Sunray for a while now
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Old 19-02-05, 02:51
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Post Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets Dottir
... now I'm getting really heavy here, but war is a heavy thing that has heavy impact.
..and some are still suffering the effects of having served.....

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I think I'd better go giggle with the Sunray for a while now
Me to, the er is signing off for the evening. Have fun at Acton.

Cheers
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Old 19-02-05, 03:02
Vets Dottir
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
..and some are still suffering the effects of having served.....
Well ... I don't think anyone can EVER fully come home from the war ... it changes everything ... especially minds. For this ... the rest of us sit pretty because others have paid for it and continue to pay for it, while the rest of the civi world, for the most part, just doesn't "get it" ... THATS why MLU and all other places that remember and inform, educate, preserve ... and especially HONOUR ..... well ... I don't need to tell any of you in here

Hey ... thanks Enjoy your evening ... can't giggle with the Sunray until he stops snoring on the couch
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Old 19-02-05, 08:11
Norm Cromie (RIP) Norm Cromie (RIP) is offline
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Default rifleman, Smith Edward

Karman:
I think it truly is a fine tribute to your uncle that you have gone to such lengths to understand his story during his time in the army. For me the real tragedy that the SS bastards did not treat him as a fellow soldier. I know there is no glory or queensbury rules in the time of war. The cowardly act of executing a fellow soldier is for me beyond comprehension. The wonderful response of the MLU members to your enquiries is exceptional. Regarding the AWOL your uncle acrude I can assure you I probably well surpassed him. His behaviour sounds a hell of a lot like mine. Young anti- authorty, indifferent to a few days pay and a couple of weeks of CB sure never detered me. I personally consider it a badge of honor. I added to this punishment by going on leave improperly dressed because I hated uniformity. The photo below bears this out. As the chap on the left was properly dressed for leave and I was as you can see, not. Again, I salute you, and the MLU chaps that responded to your quest regarding this great young soldier who paid the full price.
Attached Thumbnails
norm eng.jpg  
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Old 19-02-05, 13:33
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Default Anti-authority?

Australian unit histories are littered with stories of soldiers who tried to buck the system in training or away from the front line, but who became adept, courageous and displayed initiative in combat. In fact, it would seem the soldier who had the perfect conduct record often lacked the ability to "Think outside the square", as it would be termed today (or was very crafty in covering their sins!). Charges of being AWL were often matched by an equal number of occaisions where planning, daring, a little help from your mates and sheer luck meant your night on the tiles was never discovered by the Higher-Ups. This sharpening of wits and cunning often could save a situation on the battlefield. Besides AWL charges, many decorated soldiers have histories of promotions followed by reductions in rank and/or stoppages of pay for misdemeanours. This would be a result of their leadership skills being offset by other skills that were not so highly valued by the military establishment. Did it make them less worthy soldiers? I think it proved they were human.
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Old 19-02-05, 16:51
Vets Dottir
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Default Back later

NORM, ART, and TONY ...

I have to leave right now so have no time to reply to your latest posts in this, and in the OBSERVATION thread etc ... but I very much want to respond to what you said ... and to your kind words and thoughts about my Uncle ...

Must leave for ACTON .... NOW ... we're running late after a late nite sitting up with Geoff's son until about 3 a.m. .... who is visiting ...

Back this afternoon ... (and looking forward to meeting some MLU-ers ... but I won't be able to RUN from any of them as my knee and leg are bum today! )

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Old 20-02-05, 01:30
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Post Re: Award of War Service Medals - Rifleman Smith, Edward

Further to my post regarding the award of War Service Medals to Edward (on 22 Aug 46), and his award of the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal & Clasp (on 15 Jan 44), I would like to add that, on the form that verified and authorized his entitlement to the award of the 1939-45 Star; France-Germany Star; Defence Medal and War Medal (dated: 22 Aug 46), there is a stamped 'NO RIBBON DESPATCH' at the bottom of the form. This would mean that, what we would call today, the 'undress' ribbons were not sent to his next-of-kin (his parents).

On the next form, entitled: 'Medals and Memorials - Deceased Personnel'

under - (1) Medals, Person, Entitled To - it lists Edward's father (there is no date of despatch recorded)
under - (2) Memorial Cross, Widow - it is blank
under - (3) Memorial Cross, Mother - it lists Edward's mother (with a despatch date of 25 July, 1945)

This meaning, that Edward's mother was sent the 'Memorial Cross' on 25 Jul 45, for the loss of her son, and that Edward's medals were not sent (at that time) to his father.

On the next form, entitled: 'Awards-Canadian Army (Active)

under the first section - War Service Badge - its blank
under the second section - Campaign Medals - it lists: 1939-45 Star; France & Germany Star; Defence Medal; War Medal; C.V.S.M. & Clasp (with a despatch date of 21 January, 1950)

This meaning, that Edward's father was finally sent his medals on 21 Jan 50.

Below is a picture of the five War Service Medals that Edward was awarded, left to right, are; the 1939-45 Star; the France & Germany Star; the Defence Medal; the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal & Clasp; the War Medal (this is the order in which they would be worn).

Below that is a picture of the Memorial Cross that Edward's mother received (with King George VI cypher)

A description of the GVIR 'Memorial Cross':

The Memorial Cross, the gift of Canada, was issued as a memento of personal loss and sacrifice on the part of widows and mothers of Canadian sailors and soldiers who laid down their lives for their country during the war; its description was as follows:

"The Cross will be a Cross patonce in silver Suspended by a purple ribbon; at the end of the upright a crown; at the foot, and at the centre, within a wreath of laurel, the royal cypher "GVIR" It will be engraved with the number, rank and name of the soldiers commemorated."

Cheers
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Old 20-02-05, 13:03
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Bill Alexander Bill Alexander is offline
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Default Memorial Bar

Mark et al, The information on the documentation and medals awarded to Edward Smith brings attention to a Canadian commemorative which has largely been ignored. The Memorial Bar (aka the Birks bar) was created circa 1950, and according to records, awarded to the familes of every serviceman and woman who had died in the country's service during World War Two.
Is there a stamp on the medal record card that says something to the effect: Memorial Bar Despatched? (Ususally a rectangular ink stamp, within which there is a notation of the date the bar was sent.
In the late 1940's, there were complaints about the lack of naming on medals for WW2 service. There was talk of naming all service medals, but the task proved to be impractable. Instead, as a compromise, the government decided to send a sterling silver bar with the recipients name and date of death on it, to connect the service medals with the serviceman. The bar was struck by Birks Ltd., and designed to be sewn on the service medal ribbons. The intent was to have the un-named service medals sent to the family of the deceased individual connected to a that soldier. (Rather than having the medals themselves named.)
For historians today, this seems redundant. However as Mark's post of the Memorial Cross warrant indicates, the cross was sent to the female next of kin (mother, widow, eventually extended to sisters, and currently I believe it has been extended to male surviving relatives.) In this context, the Memorial Cross was not meant to be with the service medals, but were solely intended to be worn by the mother/widow of the fallen. The medals, as in Edward's case were usually sent to the father. As these were not named, the Memorial Bar would attach the fallen soldier to the service medals.
In essence, the Memorial Cross is a stand alone commemorative, intended to mark the life of the service person to their next of kin. The Memorial Bar was sent to the recipient of the medals, to name them for posterity. Of interest, the Memorial Bar was distributed in 1950 or 1951, to the last known address of the next of kin who had received the medals. In some cases this was the same address to which the Memorial Cross was sent. According to government records, all Memorial Bars (some 45,000) were despatched within several weeks at this time. Unfortunately, the Memorial Bars seem to have disappeared, and are seldom seen when compared to the Memorial Cross.
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Old 20-02-05, 16:47
Vets Dottir
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Default Catching up.

I see I have some catching up to do on the last couple of days posts from you-all ... which I will do shortly as I'm not quite awake as yet. After returning home from Acton, Geoff put on "THE BAND OF BROTHERS" DVD series which totally absorbed our attention until we went to sleep., therefore I didn't get back to this.

BTW ... "Band of Brothers" is an amazing series!

I do want to comment that I'm really sad to say that Grandpa Joe (Ed's Dad) never got to see his sons medals, as he died in that house fire Sept. 17th, 1945 ... (which also would have been the day of Uncle Ed's 22nd birthday) Granny Joe received the medals I assume, as they were around when I was a little kid. I don't recall ever seeing a "MEMORIAL BAR" though?

MARK ... thank you for taking the time to do this for me, and to post all of this information. As ever, you give SO much to help people know and understand. There are so many people in here that you've gone out of your way to research and answer for... and thanks you-all for your input.

Time for more coffee Back soon.

Karmen
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Old 20-02-05, 18:09
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Default Re: Memorial Bar

Hi Bill;

Thanks for your input regarding the Memorial Bar.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Alexander
Mark et al, The information on the documentation and medals awarded to Edward Smith brings attention to a Canadian commemorative which has largely been ignored. The Memorial Bar (aka the Birks bar) was created circa 1950, and according to records, awarded to the familes of every serviceman and woman who had died in the country's service during World War Two.
Is there a stamp on the medal record card that says something to the effect: Memorial Bar Despatched? (Ususally a rectangular ink stamp, within which there is a notation of the date the bar was sent.
On the right hand side of the 'MEDALS AND MEMORIALS-DECEASED PERSONNEL' form - the stamp for the Memorial Bar is there, but the date of despatch is blank, but the Registration No. is filled in. As I mentioned earlier regarding the Memorial Cross itself, on the right hand side of the form (smaller stamp) the date of despatch (25 Jul 45) and the Registration Number are filled in.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Alexander
For historians today, this seems redundant. However as Mark's post of the Memorial Cross warrant indicates, the cross was sent to the female next of kin (mother, widow, eventually extended to sisters, and currently I believe it has been extended to male surviving relatives.)
You are correct regarding the Memorial Cross going to male surviving relatives today (ie: father). About ten years ago, we presented one to a mother here in London, while the father in Petawawa received one also, their son had been killed while serving in the former Yugoslavia (they were divorced at the time of his death), but were both still, his legal next-of-kin.

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Old 20-02-05, 18:38
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Default Re: Catching up.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I do want to comment that I'm really sad to say that Grandpa Joe (Ed's Dad) never got to see his sons medals, as he died in that house fire Sept. 17th, 1945 ... (which also would have been the day of Uncle Ed's 22nd birthday) Granny Joe received the medals I assume, as they were around when I was a little kid. I don't recall ever seeing a "MEMORIAL BAR" though?
Hi Karmen;

Dumb question, if Joseph Smith passed in Sept 1945, who was the Office of the Adjutant-General writing to regarding the circumstances of Edward's death, well into the late 40's. There are letters dated, as late as, Jul 1947, from the Office of the Adjutant-General, addressed to Mr. Joseph Smith, Beaconia, Manitoba. That would also mean that Joseph never knew that Edward had been murdered, since the first letter to this effect, is dated 6 Dec 1945. (from the Adjutant-General to Mr. Joseph Smith). Also, all the paper work regarding Edward's 'Estate', going into 1947, mentions Joseph in the 'present' tense, or in other words, not deceased. Also, Edward's 'Official Registration of Death' certificate from the province of Manitoba (dated 7 Mar 46) lists Joseph as the next-of-kin (not deceased)

Regarding the 'Memorial Bar', it looks like it was never sent.

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Old 20-02-05, 19:14
Garry Shipton (RIP) Garry Shipton (RIP) is offline
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Default Volunteer Medal with clasp

Mark,
Just went upstairs & checked out my father's medals,and he has the clasp on his volunteer medal.What does the clasp designate.I think I already know the answer,but woukd like you to confirm it.Something about volunteering in 1939-or something like that??
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Old 20-02-05, 19:23
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Default Re: Volunteer Medal with clasp

Quote:
Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Mark,
Just went upstairs & checked out my father's medals,and he has the clasp on his volunteer medal.What does the clasp designate.I think I already know the answer,but woukd like you to confirm it.Something about volunteering in 1939-or something like that??
Hi Garry;

Canadian Volunteer Service Medal

Terms

The Canadian Volunteer Service Medal is granted to persons of any rank in the Naval, Military or Air Forces of Canada who voluntarily served on Active Service and have honourably completed eighteen months ( 540 days) total voluntary service from September 3, 1939 to March 1, 1947.

On June 6, 2003, eligibility to the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal was extended to members and reserve constables of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who voluntarily served during the Second World War.

Bar (the Clasp)

A silver bar (often called a clasp), a maple leaf at its centre was awarded for 60 days service outside Canada. A silver maple leaf is worn on the ribbon in undress.

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Old 20-02-05, 19:49
Vets Dottir
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Default Re: Re: Catching up.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Karmen;

Dumb question, if Joseph Smith passed in Sept 1945, who was the Office of the Adjutant-General writing to regarding the circumstances of Edward's death, well into the late 40's. There are letters dated, as late as, Jul 1947, from the Office of the Adjutant-General, addressed to Mr. Joseph Smith, Beaconia, Manitoba. That would also mean that Joseph never knew that Edward had been murdered, since the first letter to this effect, is dated 6 Dec 1945. (from the Adjutant-General to Mr. Joseph Smith). Also, all the paper work regarding Edward's 'Estate', going into 1947, mentions Joseph in the 'present' tense, or in other words, not deceased. Also, Edward's 'Official Registration of Death' certificate from the province of Manitoba (dated 7 Mar 46) lists Joseph as the next-of-kin (not deceased)

Regarding the 'Memorial Bar', it looks like it was never sent.

Cheers
Not dumb Mark, I guess you missed references I made to this in the past in other threads about Grandpas date of death etc.

I assume that Granny received the mail ... you may notice, when shuffling through some of the back and forth correspondence between Granny and the Forces people, that she NOTED Granpa had died Sept. 17, 1945 ... I also noticed that future mail was often addressed to grandpa still, and have always wondered "why" if the Forced had been informed. Correspondence is there that was addressed to Granny as well ... yes... very confusing hey?

When I went out to Balsam Bay Cemetery to "visit" family in our little church yard, Grandpas headstone gives his death year as 1945 as well, and he is tucked in right beside Granny ... and Mom ... so there is no danger of me having identified the "wrong" Joseph Smith.

This whole story, in terms of tragedies in my family around Uncle Ed's death, and the fact that both Ed's father AND grandfather died on his birthday in that fire 1945 ... well ... it must have been horrendous for my family. Uncle Phillip Genaille as well ... Ed's brotherinlaw who died June 6th during the initial D-Day landing.

No ... Grandpa wouldn't have ever seen the medals ... or known the details of how his son died ... That may be a mixed blessing for him.

BTW, Mark, if you noticed in the "family members" page, Uncle ELMER (Ed's brother as well) is noted as OVERSEAS. I wonder if its possible to find Uncle Elmer's name mentioned anywhere. He DID come home as I know he died in an accident a couple of months before my birth.

Now back to you ...

Karmen
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