Ford Wreck in the Desert (1)

Kuno · #1 26-02-04, 10:26

Dear All

Friends of mine have recently found the wreck of a FORD in the libyan desert. Sadly, the pictures they have taken are not very helpful to identify the truck. Until now, I have "googled" for ages but found no sure evidence of the type of the truck.

There are indications, that it has belonged to either LRDG or SDF once (the brackets for the Sand-Ladders on the mudguard). however, the front-grill is not the one of a CHEVROLET neither a FORD V8. for mee it looks like the one of a MARMON HERRINGTON. MH-trucks werde used by the LRDG Heavy Section. But as far as I know, they had only the "big ones".

So, if anybody has an idea, I would be gratefull for information!

Best regards, Kuno

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 26-02-04, 11:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuno
There are indications, that it has belonged to either LRDG or SDF once (the brackets for the Sand-Ladders on the mudguard). however, the front-grill is not the one of a CHEVROLET neither a FORD V8. for mee it looks like the one of a MARMON HERRINGTON. MH-trucks werde used by the LRDG Heavy Section. But as far as I know, they had only the "big ones".

Kuno, thanks again for sharing these great pictures with us - yet again!

Comparing the front grille shown in pic4 with the drawing attached below (source), I'd say this could be a 1940 model Ford V8 truck (or similar 1941 model). The Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks with ½- through 3-ton payload rating were regular Ford trucks with M-H's All-Wheel Drive conversion fitted, so they used the same sheetmetal.

Hanno

Kuno · #3 26-02-04, 12:00

Andras Zboray (www.fjexpeditions.com) wrote:

Quote:

Yep, Hanno seems correct.

This would make it most lilkely a SDF vehicle. Though the mainstream of the convoys were Ford F30's, Maple Leaf Chevs and mack 6/10 tonners, "after August 1942 every possible vehicle had to be pressed into service to supply Kufra"

One route used was Halfa - Selima - Uweinat - Kufra, so the location and model all points to SDF.

All the best,
A

Kuno · #4 26-02-04, 12:06

Hanno, do you have a foto of such truck?

Max Hedges · #5 26-02-04, 12:23

The chassis looks so clean is that due to the sand blowing on the old wreck over the years?
Max

Kuno · #6 26-02-04, 12:56

@ Max

Yes - it is due to the blowing sand. In the deep south of Libya, you have hardly any rain during many years...

The paint is blown away sooner or later. You have this effect already on todays cars front-part. Especially the headlights become blind, which is not without danger when driving in the night.

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 26-02-04, 13:48

Kuno,

Sorry, I don't have clear pictures of 1940 Ford trucks, other than those UK and Canadian built 3-tonners shown in the threads "Desert Wreck 4, FORD V3000" and "Ford US trucks for RAF, Egypt". Main differences with US built ones would be the wheel/tyre combination and cargo body.

In the latter thread I made reference to the Ford 30-cwts used by the Sudan Defence Force, as mentioned on http://www.fjexpeditions.com > The Kufra Convoys. Reading Andras Zboray's message I now understand these Ford 30-cwts were actually CMP F30's, not militarised conventional 1½-ton Fords. Therefore, the remains of the 1942 model Ford (pic below) must also be one of those trucks used "after August 1942 [when] every possible vehicle had to be pressed into service to supply Kufra".

Please keep those pictures coming, I think it is great to see these truck remains placed in their historical context!

Hanno

Picture source: http://www.fjexpeditions.com - make sure you read the interesting story on the The Kufra Convoys

Kuno · #8 23-09-04, 17:09

...I hope, I do not bore somebody...

When I saw a recent posting in this forum

http://marmonherrington.mypicgallery.com/mpg/Route.asp

...it reminded my about above desert-wreck. It is really a pitty, that they did not take GOOOD pictures!

Could it be that type of truck?

Bill Murray · #9 23-09-04, 17:29

Dear Kuno:

I was in a very big hurry when I sent those pics to the gallery you mention. I have every intention of re-editing the photos and reposting them.
Please indicate which Ford Marmon Herrington models and years you are most interested in and I will try to improve those first.
Bill

cliff · #10 23-09-04, 22:27

Bill let me know when you upgrade the pics in your gallery too as I also could not read the print

Pic is from the AWM and shows a similar M/H Ford

Bill Murray · #11 23-09-04, 23:59

Kuno/Cliff:

I have done the first six or so, the other images are still there until I finish the editing. I will try to edit in/out the text part although it is mostly propaganda, not hard information.
I will also try to add miscellaneous Ford MH shots I have in my main photo repository on my PC as I can.
Sadly, we have workers here at the house, Mexicans, and I have to translate for my wife as to what has to be done and how and between the store and this I am always running out of time for the last week or so.
Glad you like the photos even if it takes time to get it correctly.

May I also apologize for the slow loading of my hosting site.
As it is for, the moment, free, I cannot complain too much. I do intend to "pay some blood" to upgrade the capacity of the hosting site and to offer some additional features such as viewing high resolution versions of the posted images or at least I think that is what I will be paying for.
Keep the faith.
Bill

Keith Webb · #12 24-09-04, 10:03

The front axle in the sand is a non-driven beam axle, so the truck was more likely to be a Modified Commercial Pattern truck, rather than a 4WD Marmon-Herrington. One of these MCP trucks recently took part in our Anzac Day parade in Melbourne.

Bill Murray · #13 24-09-04, 23:59

Evening Keith:

As always, you make a valid point.
To the untrained eye (often mine) it is easy to mistake a modified conventional vehicle for a MH conversion. My take is that the MH system, usually using the same wheel/tyre combination as the modified conventional trucks, does not raise the "chassis above the tyres" enough to tell the difference.

If you look at the pics on my photo hosting site, you can see that on the commercial as opposed to military applications, the use of slightly smaller wheel/tyre equipment makes them pretty obviously converted vehicles.

I also am getting the feeling that there is some sort of "romantic halo" or some such description that leads a lot of us to consider any Canadian, British or Australian Ford with large wheel/tyre equipment to be per se a Marmon-Herrington conversion.

Frankly, it is not always that obvious that one is looking at an ordinary modified conventional vehicle or a MH conversion.
Perhaps someone smarter then me has some visual clues that we could use to determine which is which.

Cheers
Bill

Tony Smith · #14 25-09-04, 08:39

No, Bill, it's not obvious because the only difference between an MCP and a Marmon Herrington is the driven front axle and the provision of a single speed transfer case to direct drive to the front axle. The AWM pic posted by Cliff is actually a 2wd MCP, not an M-H!
The only visual clue is the front hub. The MCP hubs are 2wd Ford with a recessed centre and a small "Ford" cap (See sandblasted version above). The M-H front hub has a large raised dome similar to a CMP hub with the letters "M-H' cast into it. The wheels are usually fitted with 10.50-18 tyres on both models and the sheet metal work is the same on both variants for the appropriate year model.
Another clue if the detail is fine enough is the Marmon Herrington converted trucks usually replaced the Ford oval "85hp" sign with a M-H logo with the words "Fitted with a Marmon-Herrington conversion". However, not all body styles from 1938 to 1942 had provision for an added "85hp" plate and some were stamped into the sheetmetal. In these cases, the M-H plate was riveted on the dash in the cab.

cliff · #15 25-09-04, 10:04

Tony thanks for the pic and also the information. I can see now that the pic I posted has the small oval cap on the front hub. I think I can now tell the difference myself which is very helpful.

PS> has anyone got a close up photo of the front and rear of the 18inch wheel. The reason is I can then make some copies for my models.

Tony Smith · #16 25-09-04, 10:32

Cliff, you mean you did'nt get pics of the MCP at Kingaroy? In fact, there was a stack of rims there to take home for $10 each!

cliff · #17 25-09-04, 12:26

Tony yes I did but I am not sure which was which as there was 3 types there. The convention truck wheel and two types of combat rims. I am just glad that all but the roughest one were saved

Tony Smith · #18 25-09-04, 15:21

Cliff, the wheel rims in the truck pictured above at Kingaroy has the MCP style rims fitted. These are for a 10.50-18 tyre and feature 20 bolts for the divided rim. The Australian Marmon-Herrington trucks like the No.3 (Aust) Gun Tractors with the roadster cab had a different style of rim, a split rim with no bolts attaching the two halves. I'll try to find a detail pic of this rim.
The pic below is one of Bob Moseley's from a S.A event featuring a No.3 and a No.8 (Aust) Gun Tractor. Note the different style of rim. Was this used on US/Canadian Marmon Herrington trucks?

Kuno · #19 25-09-04, 17:10

@ Bill

I do not have much information about the type of truck we are looking for. Sadly, I was not there - I would have pictures, which would be more accurate for an identification...

All I can say is, the truck should not be younger than 1942.

I know, the LRDG has used MARMON HERRINGTON as well within their HEAVY SECTION to run the supply line from WADI HALFA to KOUFRA. However, the HEAVY SECTION used the big ones. The one on the picture seems to be a smaller truck.

What gives an indication to the LRDG are the brackets on the mudguards (to hold the sand-ladders).

On the other side, as far as I know, the LRDG did not use MARMON HERRINGTONS as patrol-vehicles...

Quiet confusing, I know...

Bill Murray · #20 25-09-04, 23:57

Evening Kuno and others:

Kuno, I would say that my reference sources would agree with your opinion on Marmon=Herringtons used as patrol cars. I have never seen any reference to 4 wheel drive cars used before the CMPs and Jeeps arrived.

As to the pictures, I agree it is hard to tell if it is a 40 or 41 Ford although it seems certain that it is not a 42.

As a side question, may I ask where you are living? Your name seems to be German but your messages almost seem to indicate you are in Libya or somewhere in the Near East.

Tony: Thanks for the ID tip. On this same subject, when I was still travelling a lot to Sweden and able to visit Bart occasionally and had a very active correspondence going with him (this would be 20-25 years ago) he and I and some other contemporary enthusiasts put together a fairly comprehensive "Hints and tips list" for identifying vehicles from a wide variety of countries. Sadly, and I have looked high and low, this little booklet seems to have not made it in my many moves of households I have gone through. I will try to reconstruct what I can from memory and going through my stuff and if it results in something useful I can perhaps post it here.

As to my comment on American MH vehicles usually having smaller wheel/tyre equipment, has this not been discussed on this or the older forum? I cannot find it but I know I have read it somewhere. I am referring to our stubborn insistence on staying with much smaller wheels and tyres and the use of dual rear wheels all the way up into the 1970s or 1980s.

I feel certain that I either have or have read a study made by the American Ordinance Dept. or some such that basically concluded that smaller cross section tyres were better for all-round all-terrain use and that dual rear wheels offered the possibility to continue to function if one tyre or wheel was out of commission.

Finally, let us hope that most of the Ford/Ford Marmon Herington pics we see will be some sort of side view so we can check the front wheel hubs.

Cheers
Bill

Kuno · #21 26-09-04, 08:17

@ Bill

> I am not german but swiss....

> Since North Africa is practically next door (small joke) - I am there quiet often (sadly, I have left out Egypt until now!)

> Regarding the 4x4 you are probably right (in respect of the LRDG): The Chevies they usede were only 4x2. The earliest 4x4 were the FORDs...

> Did I get you correct: You wrote, that as well MARMON HERRINGTONS have been used as patrol-trucks?

Hanno Spoelstra · #22 07-02-05, 23:00

Just for reference, see pics of a 1944 Ford Köln V3000S at www.bedford.rijdt.nl.