The Cookie Jar is Empty...

[chris vickery]

I always enjoy perusing adverts to keep abreast of the latest goodies for sale.

Is it just me or does it seem that there is less and less for sale??? Has everything available out there been swallowed up? Are guys hoarding the last remaining vehicles, parts and pieces?

Funny to watch in the last 10 years how supply and demand has has diminished what is left of restorable stuff.

C'mon guys, clean out you sheds, barns, garages etc and get some stuff moving again!!!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Chris

When I saw your post it wasn't clear if you were speaking of MLU and the CMP community or of the larger world of military vehicles. But either way yes there has been a change which has been becoming more noticable over the last few years in the antique vehicle world in general.

As the newsletter editor of our local military vehicle club the amount of stuff that is being offered up for sale either through the newsletter or at flea markets has been dropping off. In part because of the internet it is so much easier to post a picture and discription on e-pay and reach thousands of people then it is to lug that engine block to different flea markets.

Of course in the states the supply of military surplus is drying up. The new surplus disposal system is not small guy friendly. And disposal of surplus or out dated military parts in our active military seems to be geared more toward the dumpster and the crusher rather than to selling the stuff.

I also wonder if it is not a matter of age. I don't see as many young people in the military vehicle hobby as when I started back in the late `70s I was 30 and so were a great many of the people who started around the same time.

I'll be interested to see what develops from this thread.


Cheers Phil

[chris vickery]

Hi Phil, thanks for your imput. I was speaking in general, as it seems that overall the demand now is out-doing the supply.

In terms of barn finds, fields and bushes, it appears that everything is now gone or really well hidden. I scope out places on a constant basis hoping to spot a diamond in the rough. Its tough going nowadays for sure and must be really hard for the young new guys...

Then there is the same old story; you spot something and know full well that it will die its last years rusting away into the ground...

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Then there is the same old story; you spot something and know full well that it will die its last years rusting away into the ground...

Chris...
One word says it all...
COMMODITIES...!!
The prices of scrap metal is out of sight..anything metal of any kind that is not nailed down and a lot that is is going to the scrappers..
Old military stuff of any kind,because of it's robust,heavy construction is a prime target..ESPECIALLY armour,artillary and heavy soft skins..
Much of it is going to China and coming backhere as Walmart junk..
It is so bad there are guys saving pre 1981 Canadian nickels and selling them in bulk to buyers in China because they are over 85% nickel..
Old gas furnace scrap prices used to be $15-20..now they are $75-100.00..
Jeez..they are even stealing the copper roofs off the churches up in Q-bec.....OH Crap...Maybe that is why you were making all those trips to Q-bec...
But that is probably over half of your answer..
Did you get in contact with theguy from Temisk with the carrier..
He just posted a week ago that he found a carrier and wants to restore it..Maybe hire yourself out..
Alex

[mike mckinley]

hi chris

all the above statements are very true, but then there is the other side. i'm not speaking of everyone with this comment, but when something is offered, there is either a lack of interest, or those that do respond, want that item but don't want it for the price asked. there seems to be an attitude that regardless of the price asked, the condition of the item, historical significance, or what extras come with it, because it's painted od, it should be dirt cheap. case in point, i put my m151a2 up forsale about a month ago, and posted it first on the mv related websites, then on websites such as kijiji. the price i asked for the whole lot was a steal as i wanted to move it, and i figured it might give someone new to the hobby a chance without breaking the bank. no body from any of the mv related websites replied. i did get several replies from outside the mv hobby, and their first question was, "what is your bottom line price wise?". in my day that was the last question one asked, because one would first ask all the mechanical questions, or maybe request some additional info/ pictures/ actually go and look the vehicle over, then the offer was made. i even had one guy e mail me saying that the iltis was the best army jeep ever built and that anything built before it wasn't worth buying...and good luck selling my pile of sh^t. again, this doesn't reflect the thoughts of most in the hobby, but it does make me wonder what the next 20 years will bring. mike

[Mike Kelly]

This is a highly interesting thread . I guess everyone's opinion will vary , your views will depend on when you first came into the old vehicle scene .

The MV collecting hobby , has grown here in OZ during the last 20 years or so. Just look at the numbers turning up at Corowa, more and more each year . For years ( I joined the MV club here in 1976 ) it seemed that things were stagnant . Some people don't like clubs and there must be a large number who do their own thing , not bothering to get mixed up in internal club politics ( it always happens, inevitable ).

The high prices on Epay , reflect the supply demand thing .... more people wanting hard to get parts .. prices go up . I spotted a slatt grill Jeep air cleaner for $700 US .. to me that's an absurdly silly amount ,but its the going price . And people are paying that much for the accessories . 8 years ago, I had a half ton of WW2 Jeep parts here ,mostly castings , axle housings , transfer cases , gearboxes, heads manifolds , 2 radiators , engine block . etc. I advertised it all as one lot in the club newsletter ( very cheap too ), got one tentative reply . I ended up selling the lot for $100 to a dealer who offered to take it all away ...

The cost of basic materials like paint , is becoming prohibitive too . How many people in their 20's can afford to spend $10,000 on restoring an old car ? The club here is trying to attract younger people ,but how many young males want to hang around a bunch of middle aged cronies .

Mike

[Keith Webb]

Hughes Trading

Also have a look at this gallery: Billy Drew
Although Bill had a LOT of yards with a LOT of CMPs he also had a large amount of parts.

Then there was Hughes Auto Spares as opposed to the by then separate Hughes Trading which was a warehouse full of parts for WW2 vehicles. Also Maloney Trucks in Melbourne and others in different parts of the country. Alas, almost all gone.

These were back in the 70s

[Ian Fawbert]

The cost of basic materials like paint , is becoming prohibitive too . How many people in their 20's can afford to spend $10,000 on restoring an old car ? The club here is trying to attract younger people ,but how many young males want to hang around a bunch of middle aged cronies .

While i am deviating off abit from the supply demand theme of things, i thought i would add my bit about new people into the movement. The old cronies i can handle!

I am 24- 25 in a few days. I guess i am an exception to the rule Mike referred to. I have been involved with vintage cars (real vintage cars not 1960's stuff) since i was born. I have rallied all over NSW and parts of Australia, followed the movement and been an active participant my whole life.

Instead of going with one of the unrestored cars at home, i chose to get a jeep. I got my first one in late 2001- body and chassis only of a 42 MB with a few other bits thrown in. My second in late 2002- a nearly complete, but dissassembled 42 GPW. I restored this jeep over 4 1/2 years while working part time, with the help of mum and dad on the weekends and trying to do 2 uni degree's at the same time. I estimate it cost me about 15,000 ish. But the finished product, while i may be blowing my own trumpet, is bloody brilliant and i would not trade it for anything- i will never sell my jeep. I now have another jeep- 44 ford i am working on while collecting bits for the 42 MB, the F15a too (which i am slowly working on) and 3 trailers with one more on the way all in varying conditions.

I bought them all at good to very good prices- not crazy prices, and 2 trailers, the F15A and the 3rd jeep, all with in the last 2 years. I have learnt that through hunting around, being patient, asking and buying when i find them, i will find/have found the pieces i need. Though i too realise that for me to continue my hobby into the next 50 years, it will be getting harder and harder as prices of general things which are needed continue to rise and parts become rarer. So i buy what i can, when i can and find that things like ebay can help and hinder a restoration! In a way i guess it could be argued, the price drive is actually hurting the future of the movement by forcing new comers out.

My problem now is that i need to start saving to move on in life- maybe a house one day or so on to house myself, the girlfriend and my vehicles! I am not rich, my parents haven't helped me out by buying the vehicles or parts, i just do what i can when i can and know i will get there in the end. I did the jeep when i did because i wanted to and dont regret any of it. Now i work full time as a teacher with alot of extra curricular activities, there isnt much time at all to play jeep, infact i`m suprised i spent this much time typing this message!

I think with the ever imposing costs of living, as Mike said, not many young people like myself want to spend in excess of 10k+ on restoring a vehicle because that can go along way to paying off a car or a deposit to a house. I guess thats where i am the exception agian. The only young guys i know of in my MV club are sons or daughters of members, but i often wonder how long they will stick around in the movement too or will other distractions draw them. In the vintage car club i am in, i am the only one under 30 and there is only 1 or 2 people above 30 and under 50.

Interesting times ahead for the movements (all movements) and i wonder, if in the future, the MV movement will experience the down fall that the vintage car movement has had in the last 15 years, from which it is only starting to pick up agian now. Hopefully it doesnt, but everything that goes up, must come down!

Sorry for ranting and raving. I hope it has given some insight into the views of a younger MV and MLU member.

Cheers,
Ian

[Rusty]

Over here in the Australian country side there is piles of stuff still lying about you just have to get off your bum and go for a drive. You will also need to be willing to cold knock on doors and just ask, I find most people are happy to have a quick chat and if they want there treasure they probably have a mate who doesn’t.

However we do not have very many Ian’s about who take on challenges as a 20 year old. I feel that western society demographics are changing rapidly; far fewer people are working in manufacturing or building trades, even fewer people aspire to owning a decent toolbox. Those who undertake trade training receive far less education in component manufacture, today its all unit change out. Our cities have reached out too far for practical travel and we now understand environmentally that we can’t just keep building on bush and farm land. Twenty years ago housing blocks averaged 900m2 these days they are down to 450m2. We are seeing huge amounts of urban infill going on with old homes coming down for town house development; people no longer have the skills or space to undertake a restoration. The cost of living is literally through the roof young people if they want a place in a major city these days will have a $500,000 mortgage for 30 years.

I think there will always be a few who take up the restoration challenge but numbers will dwindle. I think we will see the market for smaller fully restored vehicle types increase in value further as those who become High Income earners seek out a nice toy. But then again all our trucks may be up on blocks in a shed in 20 years because we cant afford to run them as fuel will become a very expensive commodity as former third world countries increase demand well beyond supply.

Agh?

[Mike Kelly]

What interesting and erudite comments from everyone . One thing I have noticed down here , some people are getting into the MV hobby by buying a already restored vehicle , rather than going through the rebuild process themselves . The club I am in has seen this trend happen over the past ten years , and it's a growing trend . That's fine , but you won't learn anything if you buy a Jeep , ready to go . ... Doing it yourself ,we have to learn to become competant engine rebuilders, auto electricians, panel beaters , metal fabricators and spray painters .The end result may not be as good as a 100% proferssional rebuild , but you can say .. "I did it all myself ". Another trend is , more vehicles trailered to outings .. back in the 70's , this was unheard of . As owners become older , the long drives are less appealing in a draughty , slow and noisy machine - not to mention the huge number of massive trucks on the road these days . If I was driving to Corowa in a Jeep , I'd probably take the scenic route , over the ranges via Licola , rather than risk the death defying road rage game on the Hume freeway . Take 2 days to do it .

BTW in our last club newsletter , two going rebuilt WW2 jeeps for sale - owners cannot drive em anymore .. because of old age . It's happening before our eyes .Petrol is about to hit $1.50 a litre here ... Welbikes maybe the answer ! Time is catching up with us all , except young Ian F.

Mike

[PPS]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Petrol is about to hit $1.50 a litre here ...

Petrol is the equivalent of about A$2.30, and deisel in the region of A$2.45, a litre here in Northern Ireland. That works out at about A$10.40 a gallon for petrol and A$11.10 for diesel (for those of us who still work in gallons)

In some of the smaller country garages (and in some owned by greedy b!"£$%^s) it is more expensive still.

Paul.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by PPS

Petrol is the equivalent of about A$2.30, and deisel in the region of A$2.45, a litre here in Northern Ireland. That works out at about A$10.40 a gallon for petrol and A$11.10 for diesel (for those of us who still work in gallons)

Ah yes, 'bout time for the current petrol prices. Holland's market leader Shell now charges EUR 1,462 per litre, nearly 2.5 AUD or 2.3 USD.

High petrol prices are most certainly not helpful, but I think it is the high prices of military vehicles and their parts which prevents the younger generations to step in. Here they are mostly the sons of the older club members, building on their father's collection.
As pointed out, less and less people are mechanically inclined, the pace of life is much quicker, property prices have soared (storage is a big problem here), etc, etc. - all limiting factors for our hobby.

Interestingly, because of the price settings, many dealers and service suppliers can make a proper living out of it. A dealer in Holland recently bought the remaining Jeep parts stock off the French Army, about 200 tons in total. Not something you do when there's no market to sell it on. . .

H.

[cletrac (RIP)]

And then there's the Canadian prairies. Gas is only $1.25 per litre (I shudder at the thought) and I have two yards of about 10 acres each. I doubt that my collection will ever get big enough to run out of space. Being a farmer I have a 50 ft x 50 ft fully equipped shop and the skills that go with it. The only thing I'll run out of is the ambition required.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cletrac

Gas is only $1.25 per litre (I shudder at the thought)

Last November when I toured Toronto with Bill Miller, we really had to look for a gas station one night. The station owner told us many are closing down as they only make 1 cent per litre. We tanked fifty litres, the guy made 50 cents. He must make more on the sale of a can of soda. . .

H.

[Bruce MacMillan]

I think this topic applies to most military surplus, not just vehicles. Stens and brens are commanding high prices these days. My own interest is military radio equipment and some of the prices are getting ridiculous. The BC611 handie-talkie fetching $300 each now! SOE suitcase radios that sold for $100 in the 1970s are going for $3000.

Mike has mentioned one main cause of this and that is the re-enactor who just wants to play soldier and buy everything off the shelf. There is no desire to repair, maintain or get one's hands dirty. This increasing hobby and the finite quantity of goods only drives the prices up. Not that there is anything wrong with this as it indicates a widening public acceptance of things military.

Price of gas here in Lotus Land - C$1.20

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Ians comments got me thinking about this age thing re. the MV Hobby. I'm surprised that Playstation 3 (or whoever) has not put out "Grand Military Restoration..2". Just think of the virtual barn finds, the gigabytes travelled, the selection of arguments available to persuade all concerned that you REALLY need (insert current goal here). There could even be websites to help find the cheatcodes and help out the newbies.......I think I'll stop there, starting to sound to realistic.
Special note to Ian. I'm a "Blitz man in a Jeep world"!. Bloody things are everywhere round here. Some people just have no taste....
Rich.