Armor CAD Drawings

Rick DeBruyn · #1 03-07-09, 09:19

I have a MK1 project that has its armor cut down so I will need to fabricate all the armor, has any one produced CAD drawings or dimensioned plans? Any help would be appreciated.

Jon Bradshaw · #2 05-07-09, 18:04

I got these drawings from another thread on this site. I think they are the only drawings on this site.

Jon Bradshaw · #3 05-07-09, 18:06

More of the same. Come to think of it I'm not sure they were from this site, I've had them for about a year.

RichardT10829 · #4 05-07-09, 20:07

i am in the process of trying to get card patterns made for Mk1 armour, i will keep you all posted, from the patterns i will be able to write them into CAD form or for a CNC program if people want to get them cut that way.

Rich

Jordan Baker · #5 05-07-09, 21:17

There was a whole entier thread made not to long ago about the drawings for the carrier. There were those posted giving the outline shapes and I posted a bunch of handdrawn ones with the hole placements.

RichardT10829 · #6 05-07-09, 23:42

I think that was the thread the above pics also came from, i believe they were posted up towards the end of that thread Jordan.

Rob Beale · #7 06-07-09, 09:15

George McKenzie generously made these drawings available. Jordan posted them on this thread:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...rmour+drawings
George made some comment on them too.

Rob
ps I hope to be doing the upper armour soon too!

George McKenzie · #8 08-07-09, 18:08

I got these drawings from a fellow in France .He is an engineer. We have made one set of armor with them and it turnd out good . I will have to cut two more sets .A MK1 & MK2 to complete my carriers .It would be great if someone could put the drawings on a card for CNC .

RichardT10829 · #9 09-07-09, 17:47

leave it with me lads, i will get my finger out and sort it. i wanted engineers card templates done but struggled to get them over here i asked for some patterns from a pal but nothing came of it, i ask this only to be thorough last thing i want is to create CNC programe that cuts out a lovely shape in an expensive peice of 10mm steel only for it to be wrong.

RichardT10829 · #10 10-07-09, 19:38

can i ask out of curiosity how many people require outer armour ? reason i ask is i may be able to job lot a load, (it will cost slightly less for all to do this)

those from canada could share a couple of pallets to save postage, and those nearer to me could either courier the cut sheets or collect.

let me know guys.

Rich

RichardT10829 · #11 12-07-09, 20:28

Right i got most of the outer stuff CAD'd but need the center bulkhead and glacis plate drawings (as these tend to get chopped up too) all dimensions in MM would be prefered for my programe.

the only other issue i got is the front armour has not got the viewing ports plotted which i need to address, especially if folk are to get the plates CNC'd

cheers

Rich

shaun · #12 12-07-09, 21:05

hi folks,
To me it seems that you are trying to reinvent the wheel - martyn tasker has just done a fantastic job with his new armour. i know his fabricator produced CNC plans and they can chop out new pannels till the cows come home (in fact most parts). any pannel you need for MK1 or MK2 or welded hull. I know they will not part with the drawing (i have already asked) but Martyn would ship anything these guys produce. there turn around is great not the months of waiting like other but on your door step in a few weeks. I order some parts for my Bren and they were here in 3 weeks. Yes Martyn is a mate of mine but the fabricator aint. fianaly carrier owners have a supplier of parts like jeep owners have had for years.

try them - speed your project up.
shaun

1938 bren carrier
1944 universal carrier no2 mk2* (puddle jumper)
1943 welded hull carrier
1944 universal carrier no2 mk2
1942 daimler AC
1940 hilman tilly
1943 bedford oy

George McKenzie · #13 13-07-09, 01:16

I was thinking that would it not be possible to get coppies of the CNC program of the armor for the fellows in Canada and other parts of the world .I hate to think of what the freight would be to ship the armor .I live 3000 miles from some of the fellows in eastern Canada .I have counted over 30 carriers in Alberta alone that don't have armor. Richard, my MK2 has the original front armor and center bulk head .But I wonder how accurate a measurement I can get with it in the carrier .

RichardT10829 · #14 13-07-09, 08:13

Shaun i appreciate where you are coming from, i cant recall the exact figure for getting some made by the firm but it was well into four zero's...i cant afford to throw money away like that, especially when i would need the materials freighted up North too.

i have access to all the machines i need to make a set at a cost i can afford i only require acurate dimensions and reference to what size hole, which are counter sunk etc etc etc.

perhaps if the firm were to give a discount on a set at a reasonable cost i would reconsider my options but thousands for mild steel does not compute in my tiny Geordie mind......i am too close to scotland and by reputation they are froogle with their cash hehehehehe

martyn · #15 14-07-09, 22:06

Hi the firm i used to make my armour did quote a four figure sum but that was for the frames and ALL the top armour not just the front when you start to look in to how much work went in to the parts its not as simple as stright cut plates. i wish you all the best in making your armour and trying to put it on CAD but you carnt beat an original patten to work from like we used.
For those of you who have purchased a carrier in the condition shown in the attached photo i would think unless you are a compleete lucky GIT (richard lol ) you would be talking four zeros not including shipping thats only half a carrier the tops what makes it look like a carrier then you have the cost of rivetting, carriers are not a cheep toy like people think oh its only a box on tracks how easy would that be to make? I can tell you all i have spent well over 15k on having all the linkages and bits and armour made and thats not included in the purchase of the vehicle and then i was mad enough to make a new one on top of building this one that alone cost just as much to do. i wish you all the best with your builds just sorry i carnt help with the pattens my fabrication firm works on £30 ph and cost +20% you do the maths and tell me if thats too much to pay for parts when you see the finshed item ?

RichardT10829 · #16 15-07-09, 17:26

totally hear where you are coming from Martyn......But......... i now have access to a pucker unmolested Mk1 with complete armour which i will verify the measurements with.

once i had what i felt to be accurate drawings i was going to get my pal to machine patterns out of ply wood (same thickness as the steel would be) from this i was going to retro fit it to the carrier to make sure it fits then from that make any adjustments required on the drawings.

another thing to consider folks is yes in the end i may produce plans for us all .......But....... as Martyn quite rightly pointed out you will need to get it rivetted by skilled people.......and also what needs to be considered is the top armour forms alot of ridgidity (spelling?) for the hull, when this is chopped off it is my understanding that the tub can actually twist which makes fitting new pannels somewhat problematic. problem is you probably wont know until its fitting time.

prices for mild steel (up here north) are very reasonable at present but i have no doubt they will sky rocket back up again (hence why i need to move fast)

as i say if the firm were to arrange a cost for a bulk purchase ie say six sets perhaps a group of us could club together.....but...... as the carrier fraternity consists of isolated clusters around the globe, it would be a pain for the Canadian and Australian clusters to pay and ship.

like anything guys it has pro's and Con's but what i would like to politely suggest is those that need armour should speak up and share their views.....those with armour obviously can give opinion too.

Martyn could you perhaps provide a cast iron (forgive the pun) quote for a set of armour and perhaps center bulkhead (as most who need armour need this too)

then people can weigh up :-
A) how much they can get the raw material for
B) have the ability to take drawings and make something that will be correct and fit their prospective hulls
C) have the time to do it themselves

or

A) get it done through the chap who did yours and

B) ship it home

Jon Bradshaw · #17 17-07-09, 03:30

I am one of those unlucky ones with cut down carriers. I would be interested in good drawings of the armour. If the alberta guys can make it cheap enough I could be into buying some. I get out to Edmonton at least once a year and could pick it up. It would knock years off the restoration to have it already pre made!

I'll keep watching this thread.

RichardT10829 · #18 19-07-09, 20:48

right unfortunately i have found that the drawings above are not correct to a 1942 Mk1 canadian carrier specification. i am going to have to go on a road trip to see a pucker mk1 methinks !

i measured my armour remnants and came back with the following

so on my 1942 canadian UC Mk1

rear and side armour plate is 8mm

front armour is 10mm

Glacis plate 5mm

center bulkhead 5mm

good news is that i have DXF'd most of the plates so once i change the parameters they should be ok for CNC use

Rick DeBruyn · #19 11-08-09, 02:15

Hi all,

Thank you for the excellent information & discussion.

Since my original post I have been in discussions with a local fabrication shop, which among other fabrication activities have a steel water cutting machine which they say is accurate to 7/1000 of an inch. I am going to deliver 2 of my (fairly complete) Mk1’s to their shop they will produce cad drawings then water cut the plate.

If any would like to add their name to the list we could collectively lower the production costs. Email me at “rick@aztecinspection.com” . The fabricator is in central Alberta, Canada.

I will keep the thread updated as to how the production proceeds (with costs) as I am advised from the fabricator.

Before I give the go-ahead to the fabricator to cut the plate I would like to provide the CAD drawings for comment from any that are willing to double check the dimension accuracy (please email me if you would check).

I plan to give the attached side armor drawing to the fabricator to assist in their CAD drawings (more to come as I can measure and produce them), can any comment on its accuracy? As I measured the rivets there seemed to be slight differences from carrier side to side and even on the measurements from the same side…perhaps the problem is that in the riveting process they (rivets) don’t flatten completely central to the drilled hole.

Thanks, Rick

RichardT10829 · #20 11-08-09, 10:19

from what we discussed via email the measurements provided on the rough drawings were all wrong (for a canadian carrier anyway) i produced dxf's but they need corrected with size etc i spent little over a week making them, but without the correct sizes from an unmolested carrier they are a risk of being slightly out. It will be easier to drill the plates on the carrier as per Martyns method, what would be good is the water jet could cut out the center bulkhead easily and all the viewing visors on the front armour. keep me posted Rick but if you have got the outer dimensions of the plate done the rivet holes are easy enough. when i measured the remnants of the side armour (minus the rivet heads) the holes were 10mm and the counter sunk diameter was 10.8mm but i could not measure counter sink depth as my vernier is missing.

send me what you got dxf wise matey but if you have got the outer plate measured right, it will save me a 5 hour drive to Kevins house to measure his canadian armour

i will try and get some ply blanks cut from your current spec's and try them against my carrier.

RichardT10829 · #21 11-08-09, 18:04

right, the college have cut out two blanks for the side armour, so i will collect and try it on the carrier, at least i will be able to accurately plot the bottom holes but cant help with the uprights as they have all been chopped off.

Lynn Eades · #22 12-08-09, 09:10

Thanks for posting your pdf. If they are accurate, they will be really helpful.
Cheers.

RichardT10829 · #23 12-08-09, 13:09

Rick, are those two carriers yours ?

I have collected the blanks so i can hopefully get them retro fitted tonight and post up the results tomorrow. I am confident we can produce something accurate for the large numbers of people in our predicament

"the system works"

martyn · #24 12-08-09, 22:51

What you need is a propper set of front armour thats not on a carrier?
Good luck with your templates richard hope they fit?

RichardT10829 · #25 13-08-09, 16:56

very generous of you to offer these up for measurements Martyn, are you going to post up the measurements or shall I send kevin a crate of booze in payment to pop over and measure them up

secondly is this british armour or canadian as i am told they are quite different ?

Rick DeBruyn · #26 13-08-09, 18:44

Richard I’ve been fortunate enough to track down 4 Mk1’s. Between the 2 almost complete UC’s I will be able to obtain all “un-molested” measurements needed to produce armor for the cut down units I have.

It would be nice to have a couple users/owners from the forum double check my measurements, what is the forums unit preference; Metric or Imperial? I used Imperial assuming that was the original units used back in the 1940’s.

As I previously posted, I noticed some unexpected slight rivet-hole differences when measuring the side armor. I talked to Rob L. & he thought it was probably due to inconsistent flattening of the rivets during manufacture…what do you think? As suggested in a previous post, the most accurate solution would be to remove the rivets from original plate to get the factory “specs”.

As you can see from the photos the UC’s are rough and in need of a lot of “elbow grease”, also I will need to obtain fair bit of newly manufactured & NOS parts, etc. to finish them up. I plan to have at least one done by next summer for the “Alberta parade tour”.

RichardT10829 · #27 13-08-09, 20:35

On the contrary Rick they are four gorgeous vehicles !!! and iam green with envy ! i think your right about the rivet holes, and i can only suggest that the plates are drawn up without them ? that way they can be drilled on the carrier, failing that if you used teh mk1 mortar carrier the frames are all still in situ so should get spot on dimensions for the holes from that i would think. i have the blanks at my place now but my car failed its mot so have had to drown my sorrows with a £400 fix it bill. will have the results for you tommorow as i still have remnants left i should be able to see if the plate fits or not

martyn · #28 13-08-09, 23:28

Ok here we go this is how we did mine, make the plates drill the plates as best you think, offer them to your hull tack weld them in place, then build it up bit by bit after your happy its all going to fit weld the front behind where the frames would be, take it off and then make your frames,then mount the frames and drill through your plates on the vehicle its the best way to make it.

RichardT10829 · #29 14-08-09, 08:27

and its always best to go from experience

cheers Martyn i suppose from carrier to carrier the holes and rivet types could be different depending on what the carrier would be used for.

Eric Korhonen · #30 14-08-09, 17:23

Rick:
Your carriers are gorgeous, they are far from rough shape. Most are cut down to next to nothing. You have a very nice collection there. I look forward to seeing your progress on them.

Eric