Carrier gearshift binds in first gear

[Big D]

Gidday all,

Happy New Year.

I have a slightly unusual problem with my Australian carrier. When I first got the carrier I found the gear change to be quite stiff, especially going into 1st and 2nd. I put this down to the fact that the carrier was sitting around for a couple of years with very little use and the gear change linkages and bushes were probably dry and in need of lubricaton.

Over a period of time I worked on freeing this up with plenty of grease in different areas. It is 10 times better but I find it still find it quite stiff and binding going into 1st gear only.

The problem worsens when the vehicle is used over a period of a couple of hours and heats up. Often you will go into first gear but then when you want to change into second, it is so stiff that you have to 'smack' the gear lever upwards to get it out of the binding it is in, in first gear. Once into neutral it moves smoothly into second gear.

My thoughts are that the problem is in the two brass bushes that support the gearchange rod and ball joint that operates the floating lever on the transmission.

Here is a bit of a summary of what I have tried:

* It is not the transmission. I have removed the floating lever that operates the transmission from the gearchange rod and ball joint to isolate this and the stiffness is still there moving into the position of first gear. That is, with the gear lever back as far as it will go in that first gear position.

* I have checked the gear change rod where it goes through the bulkhead. This is free and is not binding on anything. In the first gear position, you can push this rod with your finger and there is sideways movement, so there is no tension on it.

* I have removed the gearchange rod and ball joint and the two brass bushes it is mounted on. I cleaned up the back bush and the arm that runs through it. This is nice and free sliding on the arm with the unit out. There is no binding on the arm in this sense and it doesn’t feel like there is excessive wear in the bush.

* I have not removed the front bush from the gearchange rod and ball joint (to do so I would have to split the welded portion where the universal joint is fitted). However, I have cleaned up the piece of the rod that runs through the bush and this bush also rides freely over the arm. There is no binding on the bush like this and it doesn’t feel like there is excessive wear on it.

* I refitted everything with plenty of grease on the gearchange rod and ball joint and in the bushes and the problem is still there. Again I checked the gear change rod on the driver's side of the universal joints and it is free with no tension on the rod. The tension seems to come in at the gearchange rod and ball joint end beyond where the universal joint is.

* I guess the only other thing I could have tried is to refit the gearchange rod and ball joint into the two mounted brass bushes but with the universal joint not connected.

My belief is that it is likely to be the alignment of the two bushes in the hull with respect to the gearchange rod and ball joint. I suspect that one of them (probably the front) is not quite mounted straight on the hull and creates binding when the lever is at the most rearward positin in first gear. How I would check this though has got me thinking.

I haven't seen the whole gearchange system out of a carrier so am really just working off a visualisation as to how it all operates.

Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Physically I am on the large size and working in that area is difficult enough as it is. I am not prepared to remove the engine to check this out!

Am I 'barking up the wrong tree' with my assessment of the likely cause?

There is not a lot of movement in the mounting holes on the brass bushes. One of my thoughts was simply to try upwards or downwards pressure on the front bush as I tightened that up again and just see if I could tighten it at a point where the gearchange rod was at its free-est.

Have I missed something with respect to the various angles this rod has to work on. Could the tension be coming from another point that only occurs when the gear lever is in that first position?

Note that first gear is the only one affected. It doesn't occur in top gear but theoretically top gear would be throwing the gearchange rod in the same direction as first (albeit) with a slight angular twist on the rod) .


Any ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers

Darryl

[matilda IIA]

G'day Darryl


Before I did anything rash I would check out the simple things, double check the gear lever at the operator end, I have a carrier that also becomes very hard to operate and its the sliding rod under the gear nob that allows the lever to move back and forth. for some reason ours becomes so hard to operate that it feels like a phisical obstruction is pressent. A quick spray and shake with some panther piss may solve your issue. when you get time pull the outer section off and clean it out. No more issues....

If you have issues contact me and we will work something out.

Kind regards
Matt

[Scrivo18]

Hi

My carrier can get difficult sometimes as well, and a good spray of CRC or similar does wonders, all though one time it was the actually shift pin on the top of the box, a split pin had come out and the pin witch the selectors slide on tried to come out of the top of the box.
As this was Black Saturday and I was trying to get the Bren carrier to the truck and out of the area, I was a little anxious to say the least.

Tim

[Big D]

Gidday Matt and Tim,

Thanks for the replies.

I have disconnected the gear lever itself from the main connecting rod by removing the two bolts near the driver's seat, so as to isolate this. The gear lever and its sliding mechanism slide smoothly. However, by trying to move the main connecting rod that runs down the hull to the gearbox by hand, you can still feel the binding effect at the other end.

I've removed the arm that actually attaches to the transmission and the binding effect is still there so it is in the linkage/connecting rod/gearchagne rod area somewhere.

I experimented today with loosening the two brass bushes holding the gearchange rod and ball joint and then putting a little upwards pressure on the front bush before retightening it. I felt this made it very slightly better but in saying that I can now feel the binding effect in 3rd gear.

It probably makes sense that this binding in 3rd was there all the time but with the gearbox being mainly in 1st gear I just may not have noticed it that much.

So I think that it is somewhere in the linkage arrangement where the rod is in its most rearward position and it is binding somewhere in that position.

I figured there couldn't be too many possibilities and the alignment of the two bushes seems to be the only possibility to me.

I reckon my next step is to disconnect the main connecting rod at the universal joint, and fit the gearchange rod and ball joint in the two brass bushes (with nothing else connected) onto the hull and see if I can isolate things from there. That way nothing else can be invovled.

Any other bright ideas or do you think I am on the right track?

Thanks

Darryl

[Lynn Eades]

When you say it gets worse, when it heats up up, then I would be looking for a fault in a component affected by heat. Dont over look the selector shafts in the gearbox lid. They can suffer from condensation and rusting if they sit a while.

[charlie fitton]

..I wouldn't look past the motor mounts, or the clutch plate dragging either...

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

When you say it gets worse, when it heats up up, then I would be looking for a fault in a component affected by heat. Dont over look the selector shafts in the gearbox lid. They can suffer from condensation and rusting if they sit a while.

That is exactly what I found on trying to moove my carrier after it had stood idle for 18 months. It was a pig of a job to line up the selectors to mate them back on the shafts after freeing them up. Lying on your side and trying to get everything to line up took ages. John.

[Big D]

Gidday all

Thanks for the replies.

I did some experimenting again with the aligment of the brass bush mounts and the gearchange rod and ball joint. I think it is about as free as it is ever going to be now. It slides freely back and forth with no apparent binding now.

Lynn - you got me thinking about the gearbox and out of interest I took off the transmission housing gap and shone a torch in there. Sure enough I can see signs of rust on the shifter rods. While I can't see everything in there, looking at the transmission from the rear of the carrier, I can see rust on the most rearward position of the right hand shifter rod. I can also see rust on the driver's end of the centre shifter rod.

I'll have to get my Ford manual out to see which gears they affect but presumably all shifter rods will be affected. I wonder how much rust is too much but presumably this would not help, certainly once the engine heats up.

How straightforward a job is this to remove the top cover? By the looks of things I can just remove all the top cover bolts and lift it straight up. Will I need to move the oil filter?

My other worry is how easy is it to get it back on afterwards? Will the selector forks align themselves without any worries.

Is this what you were getting at John?

Cheers

Darryl

[Big D]

Gidday again,

I went ahead and shifted the oil filter and pulled the transmission top cover.

I've taken a series of photos of it from both underneath and on top taken through the top where the housing cap goes. Notice that on some of the photos the flash has given the impression of reddening of the areas affected by corrosion. In normal light, these don't seem as bad as the photos would have me believe.

However, looking at the corrision, there does seem to be some obvious very red rusty areas on the shifter rods as seen through the hole in the top cover. The corrosion on the underside of the shifter rods appears very dark and older although I am certainly no expert with this sort of stuff.

Overall, the corrosion appears no worse than that in the gearbox on my 1943 Willys. However at the same time this gearbox and engine was completely reconditioned around 2005 and the carrier would have only done 100 miles at the very most since then.

It looks to me like I'll have to pull all the shifter rods and clean them all up. I guess all this would only add to the binding when coming out of gear.

I would be keen to see what you experts think.

Thanks.

Cheers

Darryl

[Scrivo18]

Hi

Thats the drama my carrier had, one of the rods actually started to come out of the top plate, very difficult to shift gear, espially in front of a fire front, I had to give it a very smart kick!!

Tim

[Lynn Eades]

Pull it to bits, and clean it up. Then you can hopefully eliminate it as the problem.
When someone recons one of these boxes, it may mean nothing happened to the top of the box.
As you can see, there are three holes in line with the three selector shafts. Above each shaft is a ball brg. followed by a spring. On the opposite plane are two pellets between the three shafts. these are interlocks, which in conjuction with a floating pin in the center shaft, prevent you from selecting two gears at once.
At one end there are core plugs (or frost, or welch) which can hold a fair bit of gunge.
Its worth the effort to go through it. Pull it to bits slowly, taking careful note of how it all fits together (your photos will help a lot.
The shaft with no fork is for reverse. The one at the front of the box is for third and top gear, and the other one selects first and second. If you have any problems, I can walk you through it.
There are other areas that can cause your trouble too, as George said. If your clutch is dragging it makes selecting a gear harder to do. If this is the problem, it will be noticeably different when the engine is running, and not running.
Any questions, Just ask. It may help someone else.

[Ron Pier]

All this talk of gearshift selection problems got me worried about my own carrier, as I haven't put it in gear for some time. I did overhaul my box myself about 12-13 years ago.As Lynn mentioned, I didn't touch the top cover though. Anyway I just braved my way through 1" of snow in my carpet slippers to the shed.(Life is tough here you Canadians!) Anyway fired up the carrier and she slips nicely into all 5 gears. ( phew!) Ron

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

When you come to put the this assembly back on I would advise you to have someone to help you. My friend lay on his side alongside the engine on the drivers side and tried to see that the two shifter forks lined up and I was on the other side to align the reverse rod.As I said we found it a pig of a job as you couldnt see exactly what was going on. It took us about 6 tries before we got it right. For the first 5 tries everything seemed o.k. but when we tried to engage a gear it was still lockes up due to non alignment. My advice, find a friend who is mechanically minded and a good supply of cigs and tea. All the best, John.

[Big D]

Gidday again

I stripped down the top of the gearbox tonight. I took a series of photos as I went. Damn handy these digital cameras.

The shifter rods certainly have some corrosion on them. The bores in the gearbox top seem pretty good though.

What's the best way to clean the rods up? Just a bit of emery paper and some elbow grease?

Cheers

Darryl

[Ron Pier]

Either that or a wire wheel Darryl. Then a good coat of copper slip on assembly to reduce the problem in the future. Ron

[Lynn Eades]

If it all looks O.K. put it back together. Grease the bores, the little pin in the centre shaft, the two pellets in thier bores, and put some gease in the holes for the detents. As you have probably worked out, you can only move a shaft when the other two are in the neutral position. To put your selector shafts back in , put a spring in its hole, followed by the ball. push the selector shaft in part way. using a bit of rod, or suitable punch,(smaller in dia. than the ball) push the ball in, push the selector in to meet the punch, hopefully the selector shaft has ridden up onto the ball, holding it in. withdraw the punch, and push the shaft home. The rest should be easy.

[Big D]

Good morning

Thanks for the replies. A quick query - Ron - what is the copper slip you talk about? Is that an off the shelf product?

Cheers

Darryl

[Lew Skelton]

Big D, we call that stuff coppercoat, you should be able to get it at Repco.

[The Bedford Boys]

Have you started on your carrier yet lew? It's Alex Denby here (steve's boy).

[Lew Skelton]

Hi Alex, a bit off topic but have been too busy painting the house... was hoping for more rain so I can spend some time in the garage, I should really get some photos up here of the project.
Forgot to say big D its also called molycoat.

[Rob Beale]

Hi Darryl,

I had a problem with the gearshift sticking too, and found it was misaligned mounting blocks. We had replaced the engine bearer channels. I loosened the bolts a fraction and keep an oil can handy to oil it whenever we go out.
So far so good, and that is about 14 years!

At the Men of Steel event in Hamilton, I got a bellyful of sand as the hull plates are off, and that jammed things up too. A bit of time with a paintbrush to sweep the sand out of the hull and clear the gear shift shaft and mountings, and a bit of oil on the shaft and things were fine again.

How is it now that you have done the gear selectors?

Rob

[Big D]

Evening all,

Rob - have just reassembled the top. I cleaned up all the rods and fitted it all back together as per Lynn's instructions. No real problems putting it all back together but I've taken some more photos to have a look at first. Just wanted to compare the before and after photos to make sure I put it back together right!

What mounting blocks were you talking about?

Cheers on the coppercoat/molycoat Lew. I'm guessing I can apply a bit of that to the exposed areas now that it is all back together, or should I have applied that first?

Cheers

Darryl

[Lynn Eades]

The copper cote ,moly cote, anti seize etc. is a hi temp antisieze compound, but I personally think in this case that grease is much better.
It will be intertesting (one way or another) to see if you have gained anything. We are all learning.
Hi to everyone else.
Cheers. Lynn.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

I've read with interest all the comments and suggestions, this type of problem is of course not limited to Carriers.

So please let us know how your various corrections work out and do they solve problem of temperature related sticking or difficulty shifting.

I've had a similar problem on Ford Truck transmissions of this vintage, in that case the transmission had been assembled from the best parts of a couple of transmissions with a few NOS parts thrown in for fun. In that case the problem was finally traced to gear on the spline shaft having a slight mismatch in machining and wear. That problem was only finally found by putting the various assemblies in the oven and heating them to operating temperature between 130-150 F. Discovered then that one of the gear clusters that slid smoothly at room temp bound up when heated. Fix a little careful polishing of the slide shaft.

Cheers Phil

[martyn]

Hi
I have had a few problems with the linkages have solved them now but have developed a new minor problem when i change gear some times the ball on at the bottom of the gear lever pops out the socket, when this happens it causes the gears to feel tight, something to just check is it the ball and socket playing up?

[Rob Beale]

Hi Darryl

I meant the two fittings that hold the gearchange shaft to the engine bearer rails. They should be parallel, and in line. I think mine were not, so the shaft bound up. A boot was needed to kick it out of gear, with the engine off!

As I described loosening the bolts slightly gave enough clearance. They haven't come loose either!

I oil all the joints from front to rear to ensure smooth changes.
It doesn't stop the gears clashing of course, that's operator skill, or lack of.

Rob

[Big D]

Gidday again,

I fitted the top of the transmission back on tonight. It went back on without a hitch - beginners luck I guess as I have little experience with gearboxes.

My initial impressions were the the gearchange seemed lighter throughout the gears (engine off) than before. It just seemed to move through the gears a little easier than before. However, bugger it - the binding in first is still there, and to a lesser degree still in third as well.

It doesn't happen every time but it still frequently needs a belt with the hand to get it back out of first into neutral.

I ran out of time tonight but I will go back and have another look at the brass bush mounts that hold the gearchange rod and ball joint again.

Rob - I think mine has the same problem as yours did. I still suspect an alignment problem with these and perhaps one of the bushes is acting as a brake when I'm trying to push the gear lever back out of first.

Will let you know how I get on.

Cheers

Darryl

[Big D]

Gidday again,

An update on where I am at with this problem.

I went back to scratch and removed all the moving parts (bar the transmission top cover) associated with the gearshift.

Ultimately I think the problem has been a combination of about 5-6 little problem areas which have combined to cause the bigger problem. Here's what I have done:

* enlarged very slightly the mounting holes in the brass bushes holding the gearchange rod and ball joint and adjusted these slightly to where the rod slides most freely.

* opened up the hole in the leather cover that covers the hole in the bulkhead where the long gearchange rod goes through. This was rubbing on the rod as it moved back and forth through the bulkhead, and giving off a wee vibration as the rod moved through it.

* put a little grease on the rod where it goes through that same hole in the bulkhead. The rod was showing signs of paint scraping as it has gone through this hole.

* put a little grease on the underside of the hull cross-shaft where it sits above the gearchange rod. Again, the rod was showing signs of paint scraping away where it goes under the cross-shaft.

* stripped down and cleaned up the gearchange linkage next to the driver's seat. I further cleaned up the rod and the inside surface of the sleeve that it fits into. I believe they slide a little better again than before.

* I also found that the end of this rod was quite a loose fit into the bush that mounts on the hull beside the driver. Upon inspection I found the channel in the end of the rod was quite worn. I can recall this provided a bit of backward and forward slop (and clunking) in the gearshift when you were searching for a gear. The rocking at the bush also tended to make the other end of the shaft rise as the gear lever was pushed out of 1st (or 3rd) thereby throwing out the alignment of the whole thing.

I fitted an O ring to the rod on either side of the hull mounting bush and then filled up the bush with grease. The O rings stopped that excess grease coming out and this has tightened that whole end of the assembly up.

I fitted all the moving parts back into place and tried it out. It is now a darned sight better than it was. There is not the binding there now that was in 1st and to a lesser degree in 3rd.

I can feel it drag ever so slightly though coming out of those gears and I feel this dragging is in the gearlever mechanism (in the front) in that rod and sleeve assembly and in particular the angle of the gear lever when it is in 1st and 3rd.

Do you guys use a particular type of grease on these moving parts and also the brass bushes where the gearshift rod and ball joint is mounted? I use a standard sort of automotive molybdenum grease but I just wonder if there is a better product that isn't quite so sticky? I still reckon these parts don't slide as well as they could and I'm thinking a better type of grease would further help the movement.

Going into all the gears seems much easier and smoother now and I put that down to tidying up the shifter rods in the top cover.

The next step now is a road test and just seeing how it is from there.


Cheers
Darryl

[Lynn Eades]

All sound good. I did think it might be a culmination of a number of small problems, although selecting 1st and third is the same movement, and so points to a specific issue.
Its hard to beat molygrease. I suggest you stick with it.
Let us know how the test goes.

[Big D]

Hi Lynn

Thanks for that. What about the shaft and sleeve that the gear lever itself is fitted to? Do you grease or oil this? I see there is an oil hole on the top of the sleeve but I don't know how effective the oil would be. Grease does seem to make it a bit sticky and gluggy though.

Cheers

Darryl