1944 Universal Carrier Wheels - Ford Canada

listerdiesel · #1 23-02-09, 19:31

While looking for some wheels for an engine trolley today, I came a cross a set of four wheels and stub axles at a local scrappie.

Bought the four, plus another set on a sturdy iron girder trolley (they were different wheels, but similar)

The four loose wheels have "FM CO 44" cast into the spokes, and the Firestone logo with "Made in Canada 28 44" moulded into the rubber wall.

Looks like these were from a Universal carrier made by Ford at their Windsor, Ontario plant?

Amazingly, all wheels turned on the bearings, all the hub nuts are off and two wheels are off the stub shafts. The shaft diameter is 40mm, reflecting the Canadian source presumably.

What I could do with is a blown-up picture of the bearings and seals, so I don't damage anything pulling it down to pieces.

I intend to strip the rubber and use the wheel as a plain cast iron type, price for re-rubbering the wheels was £221 each plus tax.....

If anyone has a picture of the wheel and bearings that they could post, I'd be very grateful.

Peter

Ledsel · #2 23-02-09, 22:18

Quote:

I intend to strip the rubber and use the wheel as a plain cast iron type, price for re-rubbering the wheels was £221 each plus tax.....

Those are hurtful words .I hope someone on here can come up with another solution for you.

listerdiesel · #3 23-02-09, 23:01

We have had someone asking if they can buy the wheels for their carrier.

I'd like to help out, but I still need a set for the engine carriage/trolley.

We'll see what turns up. It's taken me 6 months to find this set!

Peter

Hanno Spoelstra · #4 23-02-09, 23:14

Hi Peter,

I see your need, and I so those of carrier operators.

Please take a close look at de-rubbered carrier wheels in the Carrier Wheel Re-rubbering thread and decide if the end result is what you are really looking for.

I´m sure with some combined effort it is possible to provide you with the wheels you really need, and do the same for carrier operators.

Hanno

George McKenzie · #5 24-02-09, 04:51

My Friend has fixed his wheels with Neoprene or cold mold plastic .Easy to put on and very durable Cost $ 60 for 4 wheels some years back .This was used by some forklift companies .Does anyone know where you can get this material > We are looking into the process .The company that did it is gone now . George

listerdiesel · #6 24-02-09, 08:09

We'll go looking again, hopefully we can find something to meet our needs, then we can release the wheels to the carrier owner, who is in the UK.

Peter

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 24-02-09, 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by listerdiesel

We'll go looking again, hopefully we can find something to meet our needs, then we can release the wheels to the carrier owner, who is in the UK.

Peter,

You´re a sport! Alternatively, you could ask the UK carrier owner to find you some carrier wheels with perished/damaged rubber, those are more plentiful than ones with good rubber you seem to have.

Good luck,
Hanno

listerdiesel · #8 24-02-09, 18:38

We have found a suitable trolley with 'almost' the same sort of wheels, so have released the 4 carrier wheels to the UK carrier operator.

Happy to have found a worthy home for them, will shout if any more cross our path!

Peter

listerdiesel · #9 24-02-09, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Alternatively, you could ask the UK carrier owner to find you some carrier wheels with perished/damaged rubber, those are more plentiful than ones with good rubber you seem to have.

Hi Hanno:

I think the big issue with his own wheels was that the rims themselves were badly corroded, possibly through standing in water, so not much use at all, although they could be used as the basis for some new castings, as a pattern perhaps.

Regards,

Peter

kevin powles · #10 25-02-09, 20:32

Hi, Many thanks for the wheels and delivering them. on closer inspection I believe these wheels are Windsor Carrier wheels, slightly wider rims and rubber, I think they would fit the universal carrier if the rims were machined down, Can any one confirm if the bearing assembly is the same?.

If anyone needs some Windsor wheels to trade for universal wheels please let me know. I think they would be O.K. for spare wheels to mount on the carrier, but I dont want to machine them is sombody is looking for a set of four Windsor wheels. They all need re-rubbering.

Thanks Kevin.

listerdiesel · #11 25-02-09, 21:02

Hi Kevin:

Glad they got to you OK, I didn't know that Philip (our youngest son) was going to Suffolk tonight, my wife mentioned it to me while I was talking to you on the phone. Worked out really well for us all.

I'll keep an eye open for anything similar in future!

Peter

listerdiesel · #12 21-03-09, 22:52

We have got another set of these wheels, this time from an ebay seller down near Bristol, the auction was pointed out to me by one of the guys on our own forum.

They are British, cast 'JM 1941' and the tyres are "Avon 1944", bearings are Ransome & Marles 4HJT40.

Tyres are better than the ones Kevin had from us, but the bearings are so much scrap. One wheel must be an idler as it has bronze bearings instead of thrust ball bearings.

We intend to use these, but can offer the seal retainers and bearing spacers for free to anyone who wants them, collect or pay carriage.

The bronze bearings have got four tapped holes in the face, are these for an extractor or do you screw setscrews in them and push the bearings out?

Also, on another thread, the bearing 6204 is mentioned for carrier wheels, but these are tiddly compared with these that I have here, is that a mistake? is there a modern compatible bearing?

Peter

shaun · #13 22-03-09, 00:01

Hi Pete,
Are you parting with these wheels, if you are i would be interested. Drop me a line on shaun.hindle@btinternet.com.
TTFN
Shaun

listerdiesel · #14 22-03-09, 00:20

Hi Shaun:

Not at present, we need to get our trolley finished for the show in Nuenen at the end of May, and if we keep on selling these wheels we'll never get the thing finished.

If you had something similar that you could not use, we would look at them as a possible swap.

Peter

Hendrik van Oorspronk · #15 22-03-09, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by listerdiesel

We have got another set of these wheels, this time from an ebay seller down near Bristol, the auction was pointed out to me by one of the guys on our own forum.

They are British, cast 'JM 1941' and the tyres are "Avon 1944", bearings are Ransome & Marles 4HJT40.

Tyres are better than the ones Kevin had from us, but the bearings are so much scrap. One wheel must be an idler as it has bronze bearings instead of thrust ball bearings.

We intend to use these, but can offer the seal retainers and bearing spacers for free to anyone who wants them, collect or pay carriage.

The bronze bearings have got four tapped holes in the face, are these for an extractor or do you screw setscrews in them and push the bearings out?

Also, on another thread, the bearing 6204 is mentioned for carrier wheels, but these are tiddly compared with these that I have here, is that a mistake? is there a modern compatible bearing?

Peter

Hello Peter, you are right, the number should be 6408

, your bearing are the same as I found in my wheels, they are a bit ofset, to let my sealings run free I needed some shimms, take good care to the bushings between the bearings, they were the major problem to me, you need them when you change from plain bearings to roller bearings and I had more plain than rollers.

Hendrik van Oorspronk

Tony Smith · #16 22-03-09, 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by listerdiesel

We have got another set of these wheels, ....
They are British, cast 'JM 1941'.

Peter

Also seen in Aust:

listerdiesel · #17 22-03-09, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hendrik van Oorspronk

Hello Peter, you are right, the number should be 6408

, your bearing are the same as I found in my wheels, they are a bit ofset, to let my sealings run free I needed some shimms, take good care to the bushings between the bearings, they were the major problem to me, you need them when you change from plain bearings to roller bearings and I had more plain than rollers.

Hendrik van Oorspronk

Thanks for confirming that number, Hendrik, might be worth going back to the original thread and updating that part number for the other guys. The original bearings are one-way thrust types, presumably with a pre-load when assembled. The 6408 is a standard deep-groove bearing, which for what most Carrier owners use them for, will be fine. My originals have 'THRUST' marked on one side and the bearing centre can be taken out quite easily from one side.

The 6310 bearing has a 50mm centre ID, but is 1/8 the price of the 6408, so we will probably get a set of those for the price of one 6408 and make new stub axles (which we have to do anyway) for the trolley. See ebay #320249498440

Are you saying that the basic wheel is the same, and that you can swap plain and ball bearings between them?

Peter

listerdiesel · #18 22-03-09, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Also seen in Aust:

Hi Tony:

I don't know who 'JM' was, but would be interested to know if anyone has the ID.

Looks like we will be swapping this new set with the four originals that Kevin had from us, as he couldn't get the Windsor wheels into his suspension arms.

Peter

Hendrik van Oorspronk · #19 22-03-09, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by listerdiesel

Are you saying that the basic wheel is the same, and that you can swap plain and ball bearings between them?

Yes, the basic wheel is the same, even the seailings are the same, to convert it to the ball bearings you just need the bearings and the spacer.

Hendrik

shaun · #20 22-03-09, 22:48

Hi Pete,
I have 4 very good blasted T16 wheels, same size as the wheels you have but with curved spokes. The rubber is near new still showing the moulding marks. Fancy a trade?
Shaun

Neil Ashley · #21 23-03-09, 09:45

Can I confirm please how you get the bearings out of Carrier Wheels as I am about to attempt it myself.

Will they just push all the way through from one side or is there a retaining rib in the center.

listerdiesel · #22 23-03-09, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Ashley

Can I confirm please how you get the bearings out of Carrier Wheels as I am about to attempt it myself.

Will they just push all the way through from one side or is there a retaining rib in the center.

Lay the wheel on an open vice (vise) so the spokes are carrying the weight, not the hub centre rim.

You need a decent drift, about 1" diameter of good quality steel or dural.

Move the central spacer over to one side, then you can knock the centre of the far bearing out, which also pushes out the seal carrier plate. You need to make sure that the centre and balls fall clear, and catch them! I used a dural blank to protect the centre bearing parts, even though they were scrap.

Turn over and repeat for the other side. The you'll have just the outers in place, the central spacer would have fallen out already.

Locate the drift against the edge of the outer that is showing, and give it a whack, the go to the opposite side of that same outer and repeat. You can go all round with tapping, but I always find that a decent knock each side, repeated, will shift it a large enough distance each time.

Make sure that the bearing comes out more or less square, don't overdo it on one side as it will jam, it MUST come out square!

Repeat for the other side.

Ours were red rusty inside, but all the parts knocked out with no dramas at all. Time taken was less than an hour.

The seal housings appear to be cast iron, and are best pushed out with the centre of the bearing, it is almost impossible to get out otherwise.

Peter

listerdiesel · #23 23-03-09, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun

Hi Pete,
I have 4 very good blasted T16 wheels, same size as the wheels you have but with curved spokes. The rubber is near new still showing the moulding marks. Fancy a trade?
Shaun

I have already done a trade with Kevin, so cannot undo that now.

However I will have the set of Windsor Carrier wheels that I had originally. Rubber wasn't too good though.

If the curved spokes are the problem, I can swap the Windsor wheels if that would help?

Post a picture so I can see what they look like, the engine won't mind what they are....

Peter

shaun · #24 23-03-09, 22:06

Hi Pete,
Windsor wheels are no good for me, my carrier will run on the T16 wheels but windsor.
Cheers
Shaun

listerdiesel · #25 23-03-09, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun

Hi Pete,
Windsor wheels are no good for me, my carrier will run on the T16 wheels but windsor.
Cheers
Shaun

Is it the width that's a problem?

Peter

listerdiesel · #26 23-03-09, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by listerdiesel

I don't know who 'JM' was, but would be interested to know if anyone has the ID.

Could this have been Jowett Motors ??

Peter

listerdiesel · #27 27-03-09, 21:18

Kevin swapped wheels today, so I have the original Windsor wheels back home.

The bearings that I mentioned on ebay are now down to £4.50 each plus £8.70 carriage for 10 pces. These are 50mm centre not the 40mm as standard, but for the cost of getting a simple sleeve turned up, it's a bargain compared to what the originals sell for.

These are double seal types and won't need greasing.

Ebay 150255992608 - 6310 2RS WM1 RUBBER SEALED BEARING 50 X 110 X 27mm

Peter

kevin powles · #28 28-03-09, 14:14

Hi, Just ordered 32 of these bearings at £4.30 each plus £8.70 postage. You can even use any spare bearing spacers you have to produce the sleeve, they need to be turned down by taking about 1mm off and then facing off to 27mm. I would recommend an interference fit between the sleeve and the bearing.

I can totally refit two carriers (32 bearings) at a total cost of about £200 including getting the sleeves made (i have numrous spare spacers), compared with about £1000 for off the shelf 40mm x 110mm x 27mm,

I have also checked today, British, Canadian and Windsor bearings are all of this type.

Thanks Pete for the advice.

Cheers Kevin

listerdiesel · #29 05-04-09, 18:59

Noe that we have the Windsor wheels back home (thanks, Kevin) we had to sort out what to do with the tyres.

Plan A was to try and cut them off, or Plan B was to try and break the bond betwixt wheel and tyre.

Plan A wasn't too good, but if you had lots of time and patience, you could gradually get chunks off the wheel, but an hours labour only saw a very small quantity of rubber removed.

Revert to Plan B.

Build a small bonfire (don't do this in the locality where you live, it has to be out in the country!)

Before it gets too far on the way, chuck wheels onto the fire and then build up more combustibles around the wheels.

Within 20 minutes or so, the wheels are hot enough to release the tyres, which are by now burning anyway, and we were able to knock them off with a length of 4 X 2 timber, and then drag the tyres out of the fire and extinguish the flames with a bucket of dirt.

Place wheel rims back into the fire and cook for 1/2 an hour to burn off any paint and rubber residue.

We did all four at once, while it would have been better to do them individually, as the amount of burning rubber smoke was quite bad at one point. Fortunately we had a brisk breeze which dispersed it fairly quickly, and it was only for about 15-20 minutes, most of the tyre material was still in place.

Not the most environmentally kind method, but it was relatively quick and had the side benefit of removing most of the paint, to show what looks like White Lead primer underneath....

Pictures below.

Peter

kevin powles · #30 16-09-09, 22:47

Hi, further to buying the bearings for £4.30 I have just fitted two idler wheels with new bearings with the bigger centre hole, we made up a continous sleeve between the two bearings, and discarded the original spacer. I will post details of the sleeve dimensions if any one needs them, when fitted they run just great.