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  #61  
Old 06-09-19, 21:41
Terry Witiuk Terry Witiuk is offline
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From a recent video post by Philippe Raymond on the Facebook Group RECOURS COLLECTIF SAAQ VEHICULES MILITAIRE, the MV owners group in Quebec have had their first meeting with government officials and possibly made some progress in having the new C plate changes reconsidered. Great News and good luck with their ongoing efforts to get this repealed or changed.
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  #62  
Old 10-09-19, 03:32
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Default Moving on with Quebec

I haven't heard back from Tourism Quebec and time is clicking by.

If anyone has future plan to travel to Quebec in a Historical Vehicle that might have been used by the military at one time, Quebec Transport would still like to see it. They're not sure why they want to see it but they gave me a special email address where we can send pictures and dimensions of vehicles we may visit Quebec with.

A "ruling" to determine restrictions to Quebec residents is back in the Minister's hands after meeting with group eh. I don't see a timeline of when a ruling may be made. That doesn't help my travel plans so I'll need to paddle harder.

This seems like the right time to reinforce my desire to visit Quebec and a more complete list of vehicles I might use is on the way.

After again calling the toll free number 1-888-355-0511 pushing "9" for English and "3" for the right department, Joanna at Service put me in contact with Aida at the Transport department.

This is the email address Transport would like me to send questions and information about the vehicles that might visit Quebec.

Attention: François Bonnardel

communications@transports.gouv.qc.ca

Once again, the ladies on the phone were angels. Unfortunately, they do not have a fresh 'memo' and Aida at transport thought that SAAQ might be able to tell me more about the restrictions.

I explained how we landed on that shore once already and the final decision would be in the Transportation Minister's capable hands. She is looking forward to seeing the emails.
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  #63  
Old 11-09-19, 10:15
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Default We're going anyway

Responses like the reply from tourism are starting to cut into my travel plans. They didn't leave a toll free number but if it's a local number in Quebec, maybe the folks nearby can check to see if their friends can visit Quebec in their MV's.

Au nom de la ministre du Tourisme et députée de Berthier, Mme Caroline Proulx, j’accuse réception de votre message.
Votre communication sera portée à l’attention de la ministre qui en prendra connaissance avec intérêt.
Acceptez, je vous prie, l’expression de nos sentiments les meilleurs.

Sylvie Desrosiers
Adjointe administrative
Cabinet de la ministre
Ministère du Tourisme
Bureau 400
900, boulevard René-Lévesque Est
Québec (Québec) G1R 2B5

Tél. : 418 528-8063
www.tourisme.gouv.qc.ca

Rough Translation

On behalf of the Minister of Tourism and MP for Berthier, Ms. Caroline Proulx, I acknowledge receipt of your message.

Your communication will be brought to the attention of the Minister, who will take note of it with interest.

Accept, please, the expression of our best feelings.



Sylvie Desrosiers

Administrative assistant

Minister's Office

Ministry of Tourism

400 Office

900 René-Lévesque Boulevard East

Quebec City, Quebec G1R 2B5



Such. 418 528-8063
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  #64  
Old 11-09-19, 12:39
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Dave D,

Please understand that this issue is solely aimed at owners of vehicles resident in Quebec. If you reside outside and your vehicle if registered outside, drive on.

You are free to drive what you want. Have your ownership and insurance on hand as always, ignore the stupidity and enjoy your vehicle and the countryside.

Common sense is the name of the game, you have nothing to be perturbed about.
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  #65  
Old 11-09-19, 18:47
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For your information about this legislative alert in Michigan.

https://www.semasan.com/legislative-...e-titling-pass

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  #66  
Old 11-09-19, 22:10
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Default Confirmation of Travel COT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Craig View Post
Dave D,

Please understand that this issue is solely aimed at owners of vehicles resident in Quebec. If you reside outside and your vehicle if registered outside, drive on.

You are free to drive what you want. Have your ownership and insurance on hand as always, ignore the stupidity and enjoy your vehicle and the countryside.

Common sense is the name of the game, you have nothing to be perturbed about.
Perturbed is soft. It's all the other words that go along with outraged like strontium, cesium and melt down. When Quebec residents can roll in their MV's again, the cooling can begin.

It's not just the oppression of fellow Canadians that is the driver. We had plans, big plans.

We have nation wide projects in draft that could take the entire historical fleet and those willing to help. Canada just passed a 70th anniversary on August 29th and we want to show what Canada did in the 5 years after the Soviet Union tested their first nuclear device. We have 5 years to complete the project for a reveal for the 75th and it can only be done with national support.

The first two thousand sites are already mapped out across Canada and we need local MV's to help photo-document their area. We're left in limbo wondering what our next step is so the kettle is boiling.

It's time sensitive because our history continues to go away. It's ok that it does, we just want a visual record before it's all gone. Rolling Historical Military Vehicles are fantastic reminders of how things once were. I'm waiting for a response from the transportation minister for a date when we can all hit the highway again. Until then, the wrecking ball is just warming up.
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  #67  
Old 15-09-19, 20:16
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Historic Military Vehicle inspection criteria across Canada

I have been asked by the folks in Quebec who are dealing with the SAAQ, to inquire about Military Vehicle inspection criteria across Canada in the various provinces/territories:

Are there any specific pieces of legislation or inspection criteria that apply to Military Vehcles and to Historic Military Vehicles?

The SAAQ has claimed that other provinces (the exact provinces not stated) have specific inspection criteria for Military vehicles.

FACT or Fiction:

Is this fact/ fiction and links to various legislation and criteria.

When military vehicles are registered as on road for regular use, is there a difference in the annual inspection critaria? For example, a large truck in Ontario requires an annual safety, whereas if registered as a Historic Vehicle, this annual inspection requirement is dropped.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
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  #68  
Old 15-09-19, 21:26
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is online now
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I think there's a lot of local interpretation by our government friends. I recall having a frustrating conversation with one in Ontario a number of years ago who insisted all military vehicles were commercial and all the rules applying to commercial vehicles applied to them. Antique status was in addition to, and not instead of, commercial. What that meant in practice was antique status got you nothing as all the commercial rules (weight, lighting, inspection) prevailed. This same guy also told me, as an aside, that "those 6 wheel army boat vehicles will never get licenced on 'my' roads". He of course meant DUKWs and I didn't break the news to him some already were.

To answer you question however, I'm not aware of any distinction for military vehicles in Ontario. There may be 'point of sale' restrictions for some of the more recent surplus ones but that would have nothing to do with provincial legislation or regulations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
I have been asked by the folks in Quebec who are dealing with the SAAQ, to inquire about Military Vehicle inspection criteria across Canada in the various provinces/territories:

Are there any specific pieces of legislation or inspection criteria that apply to Military Vehcles and to Historic Military Vehicles?

The SAAQ has claimed that other provinces (the exact provinces not stated) have specific inspection criteria for Military vehicles.

FACT or Fiction:

Is this fact/ fiction and links to various legislation and criteria.

When military vehicles are registered as on road for regular use, is there a difference in the annual inspection critaria? For example, a large truck in Ontario requires an annual safety, whereas if registered as a Historic Vehicle, this annual inspection requirement is dropped.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
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  #69  
Old 16-09-19, 03:50
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default pm to Stuart

I'll tell Stuart my stories privately.
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  #70  
Old 16-09-19, 04:41
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Do we really want to beat the bushes and stir up the proverbial pot for the rest of us here in Canada? Let the SAAQ do their own research when it comes to what other jurisdictions do. Here in Ontario anything in excess of 35 years old becomes eligible as an antique vehicle regardless of its prior use or designation. We need not give the bureaucrats anymore reason to open up inquiries to create pet projects that can potentially cause a whole pile of trouble. Let sleeping dogs lay.
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  #71  
Old 16-09-19, 04:59
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
I have been asked by the folks in Quebec who are dealing with the SAAQ, to inquire about Military Vehicle inspection criteria across Canada in the various provinces/territories:

Are there any specific pieces of legislation or inspection criteria that apply to Military Vehcles and to Historic Military Vehicles?

The SAAQ has claimed that other provinces (the exact provinces not stated) have specific inspection criteria for Military vehicles.

FACT or Fiction:

Is this fact/ fiction and links to various legislation and criteria.

When military vehicles are registered as on road for regular use, is there a difference in the annual inspection critaria? For example, a large truck in Ontario requires an annual safety, whereas if registered as a Historic Vehicle, this annual inspection requirement is dropped.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Alberta freedom.

Sovereign General insured my first MV, the 1986 Chev 3/4 ton M1010 for commercial use. The inspection ensured all components were working. Lights, horn, e-brake etc. They check for leaks, sweat on brake lines, loose components 'still within safety tolerances', tire tread, windshield washer etc.

No further inspections were required from 2010 to 2017ish when I sold it.

Quebec could easily look up the various levels of mechanical inspection forms throughout the provinces. We could even get them a contact with the Judges Advocate Group and the Privy Council if they need legal advice. Here's a B.C. form that was super easy to find.
https://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/vehicl...PDF/MV3199.pdf

If SAAQ's 'objective' is enabling citizens to operate historical vehicles on public roads safely, historical vehicle collectors should help design the enabling objectives.

I had the easiest process with the 6x6 and as a responsible Canadian citizen, I'm almost certain this is the way it should go.
When I re-built the 1956 M135 we photo documented the process. I sent the pictures to Thomas Schindler Green insurance broker ...now intact insurance.....and they sent me pink cards. "NO INSPECTION REQUIRED".

Say what? Insured without an inspection? The insurance company weighs their risk....adds an ethical/ moral/ historical vehicle file....and 'enabled' this collector to get history on public streets. That was 2012 to 2017.

If Quebec is asking for a design to the new policies, take the word "military" out of any definition and add the word "automobile" or "vehicle".

Catastrophic components from tires to brakes and steering can be inspected after replacement on a historical vehicle but SAAQ can never remove all liability by an inspection process. They will always be jointly liable for putting any vehicle on the road. They just need to get on with it. Inspecting vehicles to make them eligible for insurance doesn't stop a new Toyota throttle from sticking or a Ford truck from burning up and it didn't stop Pintos from exploding.

The bus, suburban and even the Volks Wagon could be considered a military vehicle. The 2 ton international in the 50's and these days, Toyota Tercel can be seen on military bases with military plates.

The bus inspection went the same as all the others. Does the horn work? Yes.
Go drive it, have fun. Call home if you're going to be late.

Alberta Inspection info
https://ama.ab.ca/knowledge-base/art...pection-centre
https://ama.ab.ca/knowledge-base/art...pection-centre

Credit to our Canadian Civil Defence Museum and Archive for the pictures.
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Last edited by Dave D.; 16-09-19 at 05:11.
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  #72  
Old 16-09-19, 13:55
Ed Landstrom Ed Landstrom is offline
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When the company that carried my antique auto insurance was sold, I got a letter from the new company saying that they could no longer insure my Ferret and half-track because they didn't know what to call them. They didn't "seem to fit any of their classifications". My broker managed to add the half-track to my farm policy as a "White tractor". That company asked for pictures, and the difference between a farm tractor and artillery tractor didn't bother them. They also added my Bren carrier as a "Ford tractor". He offered to look for a creative way of insuring the Ferret, but I decided not to bother. It only goes to shows on a float now.
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  #73  
Old 16-09-19, 19:17
rob love rob love is offline
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Manitoba in no way differentiates between regular vehicles and military vehicles. However, when they inspect, they do require that whatever safety features were mandated and would be on a civilian equivalent for that model year would be on the military equivalent (ie CJ5/M38A1).

In Manitoba, you only require one safety inspection for a vehicle under 10,000 pounds. That inspection is required before the initial registration by a new owner or importation into the province and is valid for one year in case the vehicle gets re-sold. That is for regular plates or collectors plates. Regular plates can be insured to drive to work, collectors plates are not normally driven to work. Generally, there is no need for a second inspection unless you have had a major accident or event. Otherwise, no annual inspections, and no emissions testing.

Vehicles over 10K require annual inspections, unless for recreational use. The addition of any of two items (bed, sink, stove, and there might be a few others) constitute recreation vehicle.

Then we have the antique plates. No safety required (including for over 10K vehicles), vehicles have to be over 25 years. Inexpensive, but very limited on what you can do with it. Repair shops, parades and displays is it.

The only other legislation we have that really effects military vehicles is the armour legislation, meant for the gangs and drugs using body armour and up-armouring their vehicles. You need a $100 permit to possess these items, however there is an exemption for historic military vehicles in possession of their owners.

Our dept of transport guys were aware of the MLVWs, and that they did not meet some of the requirements for highway certification in the years they were introduced. The guy I was talking to indicated that there were some in the province that had the necessary work done to be in compliance and safetied. Just as often though, the inspection station does not apply all those criteria, and is more worried about the operation of the brakes and lights being in order rather than some of the design elements.

Good luck to the Quebec guys.

Last edited by rob love; 17-09-19 at 01:35.
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  #74  
Old 16-09-19, 21:57
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default Thanks for the information and suggestions.

I have passed on the information and additional references from Ontario; Manitoba; Alberta; BC and New Brunswick.... to our friends in Quebec. Any additional insight would be appreciated, either on the forum or by PM.

The process is generally uniform for a new to you vehicle that would fit into the passenger or light truck category across the country. The differences start happening with the heavier vehicles and trailers that would be used in commercial operations.

Most jurisdictions have a Historic vehicle classification. The initial inspection process is similar to the regular process.

Regards
Stuart
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  #75  
Old 17-09-19, 01:31
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Default Update

Report here, may be available in other languages elsewhere.

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/qu...JOX8GoGXlsX0-E
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  #76  
Old 17-09-19, 19:28
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Default Sept. 21 deadline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
I have been asked by the folks in Quebec who are dealing with the SAAQ, to inquire about Military Vehicle inspection criteria across Canada in the various provinces/territories:

Are there any specific pieces of legislation or inspection criteria that apply to Military Vehcles and to Historic Military Vehicles?

The SAAQ has claimed that other provinces (the exact provinces not stated) have specific inspection criteria for Military vehicles.

FACT or Fiction:

Is this fact/ fiction and links to various legislation and criteria.

When military vehicles are registered as on road for regular use, is there a difference in the annual inspection criteria? For example, a large truck in Ontario requires an annual safety, whereas if registered as a Historic Vehicle, this annual inspection requirement is dropped.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
Thanks for all the hard work on this Stuart.

Is there anything else we can do that will show the Quebec lads our support?

I don't get a lot of time for the facebook crew but I did see mention that the minister asked the first group not to go to the media.....or there will be consequences.

I also saw a letter that mentioned Sept. 21 as the day a decision will be made.

We're already working on a real cool story that has a lot to do with Quebec and will involve a press release. It's all about history, culture, defence, finance, the official secrets act, the privy council, construction, transportation, planning, communications, media, education, art, policing, emergency management, fire couplers and the military take over of Civil Defence in the 1960's.

Quebec has a fascinating story with a nuclear beginning. The Transportation Minister is responsible for how the story ends and Sept. 21 is pushing our deadline.....but we'll wait.

We are asking for it to end like this.

In 2019, the Province of Quebec visited the option of banning private citizens from driving military vehicles on public road roads. These previously used vehicles have been auctioned off by the federal government for revenue generating purposes. They are the same vehicles that carried Canadians through WW11, supported our Peacekeeping and Cold War efforts from the 50's to today and most recently vehicles that carried our families into the middle east. Once purchased by private individuals or companies, the vehicles would be used for everything from hauling poatoes to hauling the Commander of the Canadian Army in hometown parades.

When the minister was asked why he reinstated licenses back to the same vehicles that brought Canada to one of the best places to be on the planet, his reply was, "Because it's 2019".
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  #77  
Old 17-09-19, 21:52
Eric B Eric B is offline
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Default October crises 50th Anniversary

I wonder if this is a plan to get all of the MV's off the road in time to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the October crises? October 2020.

Eric
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  #78  
Old 17-09-19, 22:49
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default September crisis 2019

Well, the discussions are still ongoing, and the ink is not yet dry on the documents.

The firm pressure still continues. As long as the vehicles that were converted to C class plates can reverse to regular plates, life is good.

It has become apparent that the Minister has a problem with SAAQ, who perhaps misrepresented facts and conclusions to the Minister, that were not based on hard data.

It has become obvious, that the letters sent by SAAQ, with the claim that the manufacturers contacted them, and said the vehicles were unsafe, is not correct.

In the case of the Bombardier Iltis, I have letters issued from the competent authority of Bombardier, that the Canadian Bombardier Iltis was designed for operation on the highway. These letters are from 2017, 2018 and in discussion with Bombardier after the letters were issued by SAAQ, the opinion of Bombardier has not changed. The competent authority in Bombardier confirmed that they had never been contacted by the SAAQ.

SAAQ was allegedly contacting various manufacturers, and asking them to issue letters with specific conclusions that the manufacturers did not agree with.

As in any organisation, The Minister now has a problem with SAAQ, and it now is up to the Minister to handle this internally. The risk to the Minister, is if the Historic Military Vehicle owners took the government to court, then the Minister would have to appear under oath. The timeline of the documents to be presented in court, would be problematic.

I feel that the real motivation and the direction for this will never become apparent. It was a poorly researched and poorly orchestrated operation that failed. The sound bites prepared for the Minister such as Military Vehicle; lack of air bags; off road use; Turrets and machine guns; were just to raise fear in the population.

So the due diligence will continue, until the Minister and SAAQ officially reverse their original decision. They will probably get some sort of concession, to save face. What that will be, is still under discussion. This has moved into the area of spin and damage control for the Minister.

The fire is still burning, smoke in the air, just waiting for more oxygen to burn some more. Not the time to close this story.
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  #79  
Old 18-09-19, 00:24
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It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html
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  #80  
Old 18-09-19, 20:40
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default A brief survey of provincial vehicle inspection standards

A brief survey of provincial vehicle inspection standards and criteria that pertain to Historic Military Vehicles in Canada.

Thank you to those that provided feedback! A summary of the information and references will be submitted to the Minister as part of the feedback process on the Historic Military Vehicle by the co-ordinating group in Quebec.

I am somewhat perplexed from a public policy perspective, that this sort of background and fact checking was not performed by SAAQ, before they advised the Minister to introduced changes to Quebec legislation.

It is standard practice in the public policy community, to conduct surveys of the current practice in the other jurisdictions and look for similarities and differences in public policies. In addition, it is common practice to reach out to your public policy peers in other jurisdictions to find out about any potential public policy changes that may be in the works.

Unfortunately, the policy advisors to the Minister were not even aware of the background and history of the Class C historic plate in Quebec and the potential impact on the owners. Much time was spent by the group that met with the advisors of the Minister, to explain the Historic C Class registration process in Quebec. It was obvious that the advisors to the Minister had not been briefed on this process.

Any additional feedback, either on MLU or by PM is encouraged and welcome.
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  #81  
Old 18-09-19, 22:23
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick B View Post
It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html
I wonder how the Canadian Human Rights Act enters this conversation. That section deals with discrimination or denial on a Charter protection. The sentence is the operative one, "on a prohibited ground of discrimination".

Driving is a privilege not a right, and within the broad bounds of provincial jurisdictions there will always be variation. But, the Charter does allow for universality and equality between provinces. That would mean driving could not be prohibited completely while allowed in another province, unless so severe as to incur the notwithstanding clause.
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74-????? M151A2 plated and on the road
70-08876 M38A1 ready for the road
53-71233 M100CDN trailer manufactured by MCI ready for the road

Wow! All three green beasties run!
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  #82  
Old 18-09-19, 23:53
Dave D. Dave D. is offline
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Default Ferret Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick B View Post
It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html
We might need to start a new thread for this...maybe?

Have you had conversations with other Ferret owners?

I'm sure we have at least two Ferrets right here in Edmonton and I'm real sure they're Cold War historical vehicles that drive on our roads, sometimes under MP escort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2IGvFqFdw

Let's give birth to some new ideas and see what we come up with.
Tank gives birth is a good place to start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCN80PsdMR0

Seriously, our actions or lack there of will dictate how gov/ insurance / law guides the future for collectors. Getting a pile of folks onboard to paddle seems to help. What haven't you done or who haven't you contacted yet? Who has been in your corner and who do we need to get this fixed?

Have you gone public? Stories on the 'human interest' side to gain more public support is the guide we've been given. If the story is 'good for the greater public' and you have public support, push-back will be massive.....almost critical.

It's only my opinion that rolling history, under the correct maintenance is a benefit for the greater public. Locking them in museums limits their public exposure therefore not locking them in museums has a great public value.
We should push for status quo and bust these 'restriction' facades before they become our structure.

Just thinking out loud so these are only questions that leaked out and meant to open dialogue. How can we all paddle the canoe in the same direction?

What happens if we haul Alberta registered Ferrets to Penticton for their annual car show?
Does the RCMP enforce this new restricted Ferret ruling?
Does this affect tourism?

Is there a previous legal precedent set in B.C.? Were Ferrets registered before and if so, what changed?

There is a legal directorate to protect history in Canada. Does it apply in this case and is it being used?

Your question about human rights is part of a broad band question. Are the actions they are taking legal? Maybe the RCMP or Provincial Police don't know about this ban and would have someone that would investigate it, get back to you with info.

The the next thing that comes to mind is damages. There is a cost/ value to everything you've done to this point including the time spent fighting this. Are they prepared to cover damages in a lawsuit?

Does the Legion know you have a Ferret that could visit the boys on Friday nights?

Sometimes just calling up the local car clubs to talk about your challenge is enough to things shifted the right direction. https://www.sva.bc.ca/

What have we missed?

Culture and Heritage, Finance, Defence, existing museums with rolling stock, sports teams that need a mascot, Universities that teach history, business@thecanadianpress.com ?
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