Drag Ropes: How are they used??

[tankbarrell]

Ah but that doesn't say the 6 pdr ropes were the same as the light drag ropes in length, just rope size. The 6pdr handbook says the ropes are the 30' rope converted with an eye sliced on one end with chains for the rim hooks, so they cannot be the old 15' 6" rope, though they may be that length.

[Rob Beale]

The image below is the firepower museums 6 pdr. The drag ropes fitted look like early style light ropes with the leather lined eyes.

The stowage hooks for the rope look to have less than 2 yards circumference and there are probably about 6 or so loops of rope wound on.

Two ropes of 15 feet each are 2 x 5 yards = 10 yards

Can anyone measure the diameter of the hooks on the shield to compare with the diameter of the ropes please?

Alternatively can someone wind a 25 pdr rope on the hooks to see whether 30 foot of 1 inch dia rope will fit?

Rob

[tankbarrell]

Rob, as I said in the other thread, 6 pdrs can have two lengths of rope hooks. The shorter ones are not long enough to take a 25pdr rope, hence the reason I started that thread.

Most guns seem to have the shorter hooks as do the later auxiliary shields. I suspect the no2 ropes were 30' long in 2" rope (5/8" dia.).

[Euan McDonald]

I have two NOS drag ropes, one I know is 25pdr and I suspect from MKC the second is for a 18pdr/15pdr.

[Rob Beale]

My apologies Adrian, for not reading the other thread thoroughly.

My thoughts are that the longer rope stowage hooks on a 6 pdr shield would suit the thicker rope, but not at the full length of 30' for two thick ropes. Has Marc's gun got the short or long hooks? One long rope = 2 short ropes

Rob Love's scans of the 6pdr gun manual does show the 2" rope and indeterminate length. What is the difference in weights for the two guns?

The longer a rope is, and the more soldiers pulling on it, the greater the load on the rope at the gun end. From a strength point of view, there doesn't seem any advantage in the heavier rope if it is shorter. Perhaps it is easier to grip by hand?
Like wise the lighter rope may not be strong enough for 30' of soldiers pulling as 2" rope has only 44% of the cross sectional area of a 3" rope.

The pics on the Armorama site show different lengths of rope although one look to be broken. So maybe there is an intermediate size between 15' and 30'?

Regarding the chains at the other end, although the rim of a 25 pdr has a greater diameter, the tyres have similar circumferences for 9" versus 8.25" dia. The drawings in Rob's scan show 8 links on each chain for the 6 pdr, but the Aussie rope in Euan's pic has 11 links.

It would be useful to try the different lengths and sizes of ropes on the hooks and post pics here for comparison.

My thoughts are not definitive but based on my reading of all above posts on the two threads and the other site.

Rob

[rob love]

I had a quick look at the breaking strength of manila cordage, and 2" circumference manla rope has a breaking strength of about +/- 4000 pounds. Consider that there are two of them onto the gun, so the strength should not really be an issue as that rope is plenty strong enough to lift the gun straight up. Normal rolling resistance on a flat surface is only 10% of total weight, which, depending on the inclline, climbs to 100% on a straight lift.

3" rope is around 10,000 pounds, which means 20,000 for the pair. Certainly no reason to need that kind of strength to pull/lift a 6 pounder.

Bear in mind that a rope should not be used over 75% of it's rating or you can permanently damage the rope.

I grabbed these numbers off the web. If need be, I can pull out some of the old recovery manuals which I am sure will have these numbers.

Kind of surprising actually. I had forgotten that rope could be that strong.

[tankbarrell]

I carried out these checks this morning.

Firstly, a standard 25 pdr rope on a pair of the short hooks on my gun. Incidentally, one of the other guns I have here has slightly shorter hooks but they are both considerably shorter than the long ones seen in some period pictures.

Whilst it is possible to fit the rope, it does not leave enough room to fit another on the second pair of hooks. The longer hooks seem able to take a 3" rope.

[tankbarrell]

Next I tried 30 ft of 2" rope and this fills the hooks nicely. Obviously, there are no ends on here but there is enough room left to take them.

[tankbarrell]

Finally, 15' 6'' of 2" rope.

[tankbarrell]

I believe that the 30' of 2" rope is correct, it best matches period pictures that clearly show a rope that is the smaller diameter. It also seems to show hooks that are smaller than the 25 pdr hook and rings of a smaller section.
I tried a 25 pdr hook in a 6 pdr drag washer and it was a very tight fit, the 25 pdr drag washers being considerably larger.
Therefore, I believe the No2 ropes were made from a 30' rope of 2" circumference with a smaller hook on one end and chains and rings to suit the 8.25-10 wheel.

There is a famous picture of a crew coiling 3" ropes on a 6 pdr but that also has the very long hooks. They are noticeably chunkier than the ropes in other pictures.

If we can find a known original rope however, I am quite prepared to be proven wrong!

[Rob Beale]

The test does help a lot to show the capacity of the rope hooks. Also the fact that the 25 pdr hook is too large negates a modified 25 pdr rope.

I see you have wound the rope around one pair of hooks in the pics.
Is this the standard method of rope stowage?
My pic of the Firepower 6 pdr shows both ropes wound around all 4 hooks and pulled in at the centre with a web strap that should help keep it clear of the barrel when elevated.

I looked on Google images and it shows examples of both methods of rope stowage. What do the 6 pdr manuals show?

(I only have SA Training pamphlet No 27 which details gun drills including manhandling the gun over rough ground and use of each end of the drag ropes).

Another query is the tool stowage on the Firepower gun. Does this match the manuals? and what is the curved scabbard by the GS shovel on the upstand of the front shield? (It is not a machete or bill hook).

Rob

[tankbarrell]

Most wartime pictures that show anything generally have one rope per pair of hooks. The manual has no information of any use.

I wouldn't take the Firepower example as indicative of anything myself.

[Marc van Aalderen]

My gun also has the short hooks and I'm struggling to get one 25 pdr rope on them.

[Rob Beale]

It is interesting that aside from the drag ropes, none show the pioneer tools in the prescribed locations.

Presumably they were carried in the tractor vehicle and were found to be more readily available there than strapped on the shields.

We have a similar issue with displays at our National Army museum, artistically appealing, but often details lacking in accuracy or authenticity!

[tankbarrell]

This one has a shovel and pick fitted but it's the only one I found looking through my pictures. It also has a machete rather than a billhook.

[rob love]

I don't know if it applied then, but for the last 50 years here in Canada, the artillery generally does not stow things like the handspike, the cleaning rods, or the aiming posts on the trails of the C1 (Cdn made M2A2 howitzer) or the current C3 as it results in the loss of those items during towing.

[tankbarrell]

I've made a pair of ropes, they seem to fit in a similar way to the wartime pictures so I am reasonably happy with the length. Just need to add the leather straps and it's another job ticked off.

Of course, a box full of originals will surface next week......

[David Dunlop]

For what it is worth, the manual for the American 57mm M1 Gun (6-pdr clone), lists the drag rope as being 15 feet with a hook on one end and two rings on the other.

Interestingly, the wheel rims on the carriages lack any form of tabs for fitting drag ropes to. Only the center drag washer ring.

David

[tankbarrell]

Which could imply the ropes were identical to the British ones....... At least I can shorten mine if needed!

[Robin Craig]

Hey Adrian Barrell can you get in touch please

Thanks