1941 Fordson WOT 2H truck. After 10 years

[jack neville]

Ten years ago while restoring my Fordson WOT 2H I found another one on a farm in Amphitheatre, Victoria. I had only lived in that town as a kid till I was sixteen and never knew of the vehicle, it always having been shedded and only used a couple of weeks a year by the owner Lenny Bird, a farmer, for spreading superphospate on his farm. I got access to the vehicle to measure the tray as I didnt have a tray on my truck. He dies shortly after and although I had one good WOT I tried to buy this one. the family had plans to restore the vehicle blah blah blah..you know the story. It sat in the hayshed for ten years as I watched all so slowly getting worse. Luckily it was protected from the rain but you all know what the elements gradually do. I recently wrote the family owner another letter and got her at the right time and she decided to part with it. It is missing a few parts which I luckily have left over from my last WOT restoration which can complete this one. We dragged it from the hayshed and trailered it to my nearby property. There was about four inches of phosphate and jute bags and timber covering the floors and the super spreader is still attached. It has one half of a WOT 2D model windscreen fitted which will be removed. I have a WOT 2D, or most of one that can be restored so I need another half. (anyone??)

[jack neville]

When I saw this vehicle ten years ago the rear tailgate was being used as part of a ferret box. Unfortunately that was disposed of so there is a few bits to fabricate. the condition overall is quite good. These vehicles, (This is the fourth I have had) , mostly appear to have been disposed of to the rural fire brigades and used as fire trucks. Three of the four I have owned had red coats of paint and a few old fellows had told me that they used them in CFA brigdes in Victoria. Apparently ther is one still garaged in Melbourne as a mascot at a Fire Brigade station. (Will follow that up asap). One old chap told me they were good to drive until they got close to the fire and then they had a bad habit of vapourising. I have experienced that myself and like them an electric fuel pump is the answer. Although I dont think they are that great to drive.

[John Mackie]

Great work Jack i hope to see it soon at corowa. dont forget i may be able to help with mechanical parts

[Keith Webb]

I noticed this as I drove through the delightful town of Amphitheatre about 6 months ago and am glad it has gone to the right person.

[Ian Mastin]

Hi All,
I d'not post a lot on this site!!! but I do like to looking at all the diffident forums so I will be continue this thread on about this truck, well has you can see via my photo I have just aquite a new project from Jack Neville.
first up I would just like to thank he's son Jake for he's great help! Jake brought the truck by trailer down from Geelong this time last Saturday Thanks mate .
At this stage all I've done to it! is give it a good clean out with the high pressure water gun and it clean up real good.
John4172 My plan for the truck at this stage is to clean it up and try and get it up and runing for next year's Corowa meet, after that I will start on a full frame off resto on her.
My son shaun got stuck into it and lightly sanded back the passagers side door and guard's and uncovered some tact sign's, unsure what the number 14 is on the door? I think it could be from a British's army unit ? he also uncovered an Australian tact sign to, witch is a grayhound jumping and has a boomerang under it! so could someone help me out that knows what Australia unit this truck may of service with.

Cheers for now
Ian

[Darrin Wright]

the greyhound over the boomerang is the 1st Aust Cavalary Division.

[David Hardway]

Is there any record of how many of these were supplied to Australia?


Thanks

Dave

[Ian Mastin]

G'day David,

Just to your ? I don't know the numbers that came to Australia but Mike Cecil may know.
All I know is mate that their were 60,000 build beween 1939 through to 1944 and to what I know their is 6 or 7 survivor's here in Australia! maybe other members of this forum could shed some light on it to.


cheers for now
Ian

[Mike Cecil]

The Army registered 60, all Refugee cargo, in mid-1942 (but they had been held in an OVP for some months before that). All were listed as WOT2D, but we know from the many remains that they were a mix of WOT2D and 2H. Others might have been returned from the Middle East with the AIF in 1942-43, but it is doubtful, and in any case, the qty would have been very small. The 60 mentioned were disposed of in late 1944, mostly to country fire brigades in NSW & Vic (hence the red colour!) Forestry Commission in Victoria, and other odds and sods like the NSW Railways. Remainder went to Ford Australia. The AWM has a very nice restored example (WOT2D) in storage at Mitchell.

The greyhound over a boomerang was authorized for 1 Aust Cavalry Division in early 1942, which then morphed into 1 Motor Division by mid-1942, then morphed again into 3 Aust Armoured Division by 1943.

The square and number 14 is the sub-unit tactical sign for 14 Troop, B Squadron, of the unit the vehicle belonged to.

What is missing is the Unit sign, which appears to have been above the Div sign on the guard. If you can ascertain that number, we can work out exactly which unit operated the vehicle within the Division.

The camouflage pattern is still visible under the red paint, too: the raised 'brushed' edges are quite visible. Paint, in mid-1942, would likely have been KG3 base colour and Light Stone OR Light Earth - it's close to the change over period when LE was introduced, so depends when the vehicle was painted in cammo. Brit reg number is often visible under all the paint on the bonnet or door, so keep looking as you sand it all back and you might get lucky. Otherwise, let me know the chassis number/engine number and I'll see what I might have.

Mike C

[Ian Patrick]

My carrier has the greyhound over the boomerang tac sign still visible on the front armour.

The likeness of the greyhound differs from the one on the 2Pdr AT Carrier 6146.

Photos of the original on my carrier and my attempt to replicate it are attached below.

Is this the same as the tac sign on the Wot2? It's a bit difficult to make out in your photo.

Ian

[Ian Mastin]

Thank's Mike for the infro! I'm still sanding away to try and uncover the unit Tac sign but at this point in time it's not looking good all I've uncovered is the first two numbers 16 but I'll keep trying.
Mike here are some numbers you ask for, the engine No 6182677, chassis still looking for, Cab Body No 330 7992 BMB Ltd, Tray Body No 14288 P.R.C, Britsh Reg No Z.4643751 so I hope this is some help to you? I will let you know when I fine the chassis number.
Also Mike could tell me if the markings on the door and righthand guard are they British or Australian ?.

Ian thankyou for reply! as to the tac sign on your BGC it do's look a bit diffident to my, the only thing I can see is the back leg is a bit more horizontal on my and also on my it's has a No 9 painted partly over it to, I still need to do some sanding in that area so hopfuly I will uncover a bit more of it.



cheers for now
Ian

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

Well, B****r me! From the info you have provided, your WOT2H is not one of the 60 refugee cargo vehicles registered in the Aust Army (Commonwealth) system, but appears to be from another source, so likely a returning AIF unit. Hence one of a very small group. The 60 refugee cargo vehicles all had engine numbers in the 614XXXX and 615XXXX range, and the Brit WO registrations were prefix "V" for Van, and in 7XXXXXX range. I think a 'Z' reg prefix indicates a wireless vehicle in Brit terms: can a Brit help me out here, please?

The Unit sign you mention is '16' but you can't see the last figure yet, so I'm assuming you can see that there are three numbers. This is most likely to be '165' then, which was a Cavalry Regiment, so fits with the Formation sign of 1 Cav Div/1 Motor Div/3 Armd Div as the formation. The background colours were green over blue, horizontally divided - so will probably appear black-ish these days after weathering.

The B Squadron square and 14 Troop marking on the door are entirely consistent with an armoured or cavalry unit in both Brit and Aust armies, but being consistent with the other signage, are most likely of Australian origin.

Mike C

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

I've just had a quick look at disposals data I have (very incomplete!) in an effort to try and locate your particular Brit reg. There are a few 'Z' prefix registrations in the right weight class disposed of in 1944, but none that match your Brit registration exactly.

Unless you can find evidence of an Australian registration on the bonnet sides, then I'd suggest your truck retained its Brit registration while in Aust Service.

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I think a 'Z' reg prefix indicates a wireless vehicle in Brit terms: can a Brit help me out here, please?

Hi Mike,
Z was for trucks under 1 ton payload. Signals vehicles did not have a specific prefix.

regards, Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ian Mastin

Thank's Mike for the infro! I'm still sanding away to try and uncover the unit Tac sign but at this point in time it's not looking good all I've uncovered is the first two numbers 16 but I'll keep trying.
Mike here are some numbers you ask for, the engine No 6182677, chassis still looking for, Cab Body No 330 7992 BMB Ltd, Tray Body No 14288 P.R.C, Britsh Reg No Z.4643751 so I hope this is some help to you? I will let you know when I fine the chassis number.

Hi Ian,
BMB Ltd was Briggs Motor Bodies Ltd and I think the body builder, PRC, was Park Royal Coachbuilders.
The vehicle was built under Contract no V4568, with census numbers Z4642001 to Z4645000

Hope that is of interest to you.

regards, Richard

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks, Richard - Z was not a prefix used in the Australian system. If Z is for trucks under 1 ton payload, what was 'V' for Van's parameters, please?

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Thanks, Richard - Z was not a prefix used in the Australian system. If Z is for trucks under 1 ton payload, what was 'V' for Van's parameters, please?

Mike C

hi Mike,
The prefixes were British and also used by the Canadians but prefixed with a C, so a motorcycle would be CC and a 15cwt CMP truck CZ and so on.

Van designation was discontinued during the war I believe, but as well as conventional Vans, there were some Bedford MW and Fordson WOT2 trucks which were built and designated "Vans" (Bedford MWV for one). These had a canvas covered body, but I think it was a permanent covering not roped like a GS truck

Richard

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks, Richard, that's interesting: the WOT2's registered in Oz all had previous V prefix Brit registrations.

The Aust pre-war system and the AIF system used 'V" for any load-carrying vehicle one ton or less, with or without a canvas canopy and canopy frame, but not 'Z'. The Commonwealth system did not use type designators in the registrations on the vehicles (although the early register recordings still classed vehicles according to the pre-war descriptions).

C motorcycle, M car, V van, L Lorry, H tractor wheeled, X trailer, LX fixed tractor/semitrailer combination, B bus, T tracked vehicle - can't recall others just now.

Mike C

[Ian Mastin]

Thanks guys very much appreciated, will get some more photo's up this weekend on hood and tac signs.

Cheers for now
Ian

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Thanks, Richard, that's interesting: the WOT2's registered in Oz all had previous V prefix Brit registrations.

Hi Mike,
I am not too hot on Ford WOT2's but they had suffix letters if I recall something like WOT2H (Office body) etc, with each letter being a particular type, open back, with tilt, van, light warning, etc. There are several contracts of WOT2 Vans on the list.

[Ian Mastin]

Hi Mike,

I uncovered a bit more today, the unit sign on the gaurd looks likely to be 163xx over 4xxx have a look at photo's and see what you, also to the formation sign I uncovered had the number 7 in front of the 9 so am I right in saying that the number 79 is British.
Also mike I found the chassis No it's the same as the engine No 6182677 but what's interesting is I could not fine any ARN on the hood! just the British one Z-4643751, and one more thing on the hood number I was over Jack Nevllie place yesterday he's got hood that came off a 2H model WOT and it's No is Z-4644xxx and also what we could see on it their is no ARN.
So Mike I hope this is some more help for you I look forward to see what you come up with.


cheers for now
Ian

[Ian Mastin]

Here's a better photo of the guard with the No 79.


Ian

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

I am not too hot on Ford WOT2's but they had suffix letters if I recall something like WOT2H (Office body) etc, with each letter being a particular type, open back, with tilt, van, light warning, etc. There are several contracts of WOT2 Vans on the list.

Richard,


The suffix letters denoted the following:

• WOT2A had individual windowscreens at an angle, wooden body, no tilt and vertical radiator grill
• WOT2B had individual screens at an angle, a van body and mesh radiator grill
• WOT2C individual but horizontal screens, wood body, no tilt.
• WOT2D individual but horizontal screens, van body.
• WOT2E full width windscreen, wood with tilt
• WOT2F full width windscreen, steel body, no tilt
• WOT2H full width windscreen wood or steel body with tilt

(I glanced this off various sources on the internet, so I'm not sure if I got it all correct.)

A Van body was in some cases (like CMP trucks) nothing more than the GS body wih a canvas tilt, in other cases such as the Bedford pictured below it was a permanent canvas covered supertructure on a modified GS body (longer and with no foldable sides, for instance).

Hanno

[jack neville]

Good to see some interesting history showing up with this truck Ian.

While this thread is getting some interest I might as well throw out some lines and see what might be available re a WOT chassis.

As mentioned at the start of this thread I have a WOT 2D (front half) truck which I was initially going to pass on to ian to restore until the 2H came up and was a better prospect for him. I have enough parts to complete the 2D if I can get a complete chassis. Does anyone have any clues as to where there may be one available? The front half I have has all the good bits on it ( brake linkages etc) so if necessary I can fabricate the rear half, or adapt something to graft onto the front.

Does anyone know if Thames trucks were similar in the chassis. This will be a long term project so I will start hunting down what I need while Ian can keep this thread topical. My guess is there are about less than ten of these trucks in Australia in any condition and I don't think too any more elsewhere in the rest of the world.

Any assistance greatly appreciated

[Mike Cecil]

Ian, A few thoughts on what you have discovered.

(1) 79 would appear to be the Unit Sign and because it is 'overpainted' with the Formation sign, appears to be earlier than when it served with 1 Aust Cav/1 Aust Motor/3rd Aust Armd. Division (the greyhound/boomerang formation sign). A variety of units used this number early in the war (both Brit and Aust) , including a number of AIF units that served in the Middle East.

(2) The square and 14 'sub-unit tactical sign' is as earlier explained. It is on the door and on the front right guard.

(3) the 163XX and 4XXX MIGHT - just MIGHT -be two different unit embarkation serial codes, also known as the War Office Unit Serial. What size are the numbers? 2 inch high? IF 1.5 to 2 inches high, I would hazard a guess that the 163XX is the identity of a British Unit (the lowest numbered Aust units appear to start at 2XXXX) and possibly the 4XXX might have another figure, as 4xxxx, which would correspond with a fair number of Australian units. Are there the remains of any horizontal coloured bars of paint above or below these numbers?

It is a bit difficult to decipher what you are seeing and hence, what it actually means, so the above are possibilities only. What is evident is that this (and Johns) are some of the vehicles used by the Australian Army supplied from British stocks, (probably in the Middle East), that were never transferred to the Aust registration scheme when they arrived in Australia. There were hundreds like this, though I've not come across WOTs in any quantity.

Mike C

[Ian Mastin]

Hi All,

Here are some more photo's of what I've uncovered today.



Regards
Ian

[Ian Mastin]

Hi all,

Just an up date to what I found on the web, I came across a site called Infantry Division unit Vehicle Markings witch relates to the number's on the left hand gaurd's!! what it said that number 79 on my WOT2-H relates to a Provost Company.


Regards
Ian

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

You'll have to bit a bit careful with that, as 79 was, as I mentioned earlier, a Unit number used to denote different types of units at different times, and within different formation levels, eg:

1941: 79 was a Divisional Provost Company within an Infantry Division;
1941: 79 was also applied to an Advanced Medical Stores Depot at Corps level;
1942: 79 denoted a Mobile Bath Unit or an AA Brigade transport Company.
1943: 79 could indicate a Divisional Signals unit

Mike C

[chrisgrove]

But some of these would have different coloured backgrounds. While the Div Provost Coy and the Mobile Bath Unit would probably have a black background; the Corps Medical Supplies unit probably would too, but with a white bar at the top; the transport company should have a red/green diagonal ground and the signals unit, by 1943, would have a white over blue ground with red figures.

Chris

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, Chris, I agree with you that the background colours vary as you say, however, as Ian hasn't provided any info about the background (it does appear to be black in the images), I simply provided some examples of the application of '79' to illustrate my point, ie, '79' was not confined to Divisional Provost units.

The application of the white bar was also quite variable within the Australian context.

As for the Div sigs unit, you're right: the numbers would have been in red, so not a possibility in this case.

Mike C