Wearing of uniforms (Canada)

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

This article is in today's National Post. It refers to the Canadian Navy forbidding its veterans from wearing their uniforms in public, including at memorial events, without permission. Nowhere does it mention re-enactors or vehicle crews (whether veterans or not) but it seem logical that they would have even more restrictions if this stands.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06...thout-consent/

The practice in Canada at least has been that, if tastefully done, wearing of period uniforms is OK (medals not so much) especially given that once obsolete they are not officially "the Queen's uniform". Heck, they sell them in army surplus stores and have to assume they are being bought to be worn. Yet in this article it includes WW2 Navy vets.

Can of worms.

[Lynn Eades]

If the clothing has been legally purchased, then you probably cant be stopped.
Is this another case of "policy" verses "law"?
In peace time does military law apply to civilians?

[chris vickery]

Hi Lynn
As I understand it, the wearing of current issue military uniforms is only permitted to serving members of the armed forces, although how can it be argued that it is any different if a person purchased surplussed uniforms from military surplus store?
I would think that vintage uniforms cannot possibly fall under any kind of stipulation as they are no longer in service or recognized as being current.

[rob love]

The cause of the problem was retired senior officers showing up in current mess dress without obtaining permission. While it is my understanding that the officer commission is for life, still, once you are out, you are out. Perhaps the senior officers might invest in a legion jacket to display their hardware.

It would seem like the protagonists are saying that the rule could be applied to navy personal from decades gone by, with obsolete vintage uniforms. That would not appear to be the intent nor aim of the directive.

I will occasionally wear period uniform with some of the WW2 vehicles when on parade. It adds to the event. So to that end I am somewhat biased towards the veterans with their obsolete uniforms and badges.

As to the wearing of surplus current uniforms from the local army surplus, the criminal code has an offense for those trying to impersonate a commissioned officer. I have seen instances where this was used, and you usually had to wonder what the offender was thinking.

[Lang]

I think there is a place for old uniforms in a proper re-enactment scenario at a show to give people an idea of what things looked like.

Having said that there is nothing more ridiculous than a fat, balding, often bearded, 60 year old wearing a young man's uniform. Even if he did actually wear a similar uniform in his youth, as mentioned above "When you are out, you are out."

Our vehicles can be brought back to their former glory but our bodys never can.

Lang

[Stan Leschert]

When we retire, we have to turn in ALL of our uniforms. If they are fit for re-issue, they will be.

Otherwise they get auctioned off by the ton. Any scmidt rat can wear them, provided that he does not represent himself af a Member of the CF.

For those of us who served, we get to buy another jacket from the Legion, or Regimental Association.

Just another way of saying, F.U.

Soldiers and Dogs, stay off the lawn!

[Lynn Eades]

Lang, The people that you speak of, cannot fit into the uniforms that you speak of.

[Lang]

Lynn,

They seem to find them somewhere.

Lang

[Little Jo]

Hi Guys

I agree with Lang, nothing looks worse than someone trying to recapture their youth and trying to look like they once did, and we all know that is an impossibility. But it just doesn't look right when you see photos of guys with long hair and beards in full uniform, and we will see them again, just wait for the next lot of photos from the D-Day functions. I bet most of them are "wannabies" who never served anyway.

But what worries me is now that Canada is changing the law you can bet our politicians in Australia, the majority who have never served in the armed forces will follow the leader. I am always proud to see some of our veterans from WW2 who can still get into their uniform on Anzac Day and still march proudly with their mates, I am very sure the public watching the march also share their proud moment. But if it ever becomes law then what will happen to that terrific spectacle of the guys on horseback riding in the march as a Light Horse Troop. I think at times we go to far with political correctness.

Cheers

Tony

[maple_leaf_eh]

The headlines seem to be intended to keep old timers from wearing their old RCN bell bottoms. Odd, because except for the rank stripes, the officers' salt-and-peppers are indistinct from a black business suit.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(bold is my emphasis)

Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates
419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order, (this doesn't make sense - guys can't wear their medals except on an active service uniform?)

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 377.

[RHClarke]

I have no problem at all with an obese re-enactor trying to fit into an obsolete and too small uniform. S/he is having fun and in no way officially represents the soldier s/he is trying to portray. If someone decides to paint their CMP a shocking pink, then that his or her choice. If you don't like what you see, find something else to look at.

I do draw the line at the wearing medals that were never issued to an individual. The authorities do have some clout in this regard.

[charlie fitton]

I guess that means ther will never be another film or documentary made with a Cdn troop anywhere in it?

Hopefully they will ban the playing of Passchendale...

[rob love]

Terry: The headlines seem that way because that is more controversial and sells more newspapers than a headline like: "Navy directive aimed at ensuring senior retired officers do not get mistaken for active members at public functions". That would sell very few newspapers, and even then, likely just to those who raised the complaints against their former bosses.


The criminal code offense printed out would appear to be aimed at current uniforms, and not period and obsolete uniforms. But even the recently obsolescent olive green combats or the (shudder) garrison jackets, when worn with the appropriate badging, headress and footwear, could easily be mistaken for something current, and I suspect could fall under the criminal code. The law may be aimed at preventing subterfuge or may well just be trying to prevent the wannabees from having fun.

[Dean (Ajax)]

One Question Who re-enacts Navy???

Dean

[chris vickery]

And then, there is the question within re-enactor groups as to what is or is not considered "period or historically" correct.
I am sure Dean can chime in on this one.
To be historically correct in some instances there is chance of offending minorities or certain ethnic groups.

[Ed Storey]

Unfortunately it is the obese re-enactors and the pink CMPs that everyone remembers....

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order, (this doesn't make sense - guys can't wear their medals except on an active service uniform?)

If you go to the Governor General/DH&Rs website, it explains how to wear decorations on a Business Suit etc. Technically, they are the final authority when it comes to medals, awarding them, and how/when they are worn. I think this citation is amplifying wearing medals etc that aren't technically yours.

http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=14980

My Groomsmen and I will be wearing our miniatures on our Tuxes for my wedding next year.

[Little Jo]

Originally Posted by Scott Bentley

If you go to the Governor General/DH&Rs website, it explains how to wear decorations on a Business Suit etc. Technically, they are the final authority when it comes to medals, awarding them, and how/when they are worn. I think this citation is amplifying wearing medals etc that aren't technically yours.

http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=14980

My Groomsmen and I will be wearing our miniatures on our Tuxes for my wedding next year.

Hi Scott

Congratulations on your forthcoming wedding. Wear your medals proudly.

That is an interesting site. I note that there are very specific guides as to how and when medals are worn. I know there are a lot of people out there that wear unauthorised medals they are not entitled too and should be exposed. There is a drive in Australia currently under way to weed out these "wannabees" who wear unauthorised medals which discredit those who served their country and are awarded medals. I found one paragraph in the Canadian Governor General/DH&Rs website very interesting.

Wearing of Insignia by Unauthorized Individuals
Only the legitimate recipient may wear the insignia of an order, decoration or medal. In addition, although the insignia of a deceased person may be retained by the family as part of its heritage or given to a recognized museum, no one can wear them in any manner or under any circumstances.

In Australian Next of Kin are allowed to wear awarded medals on their right breast instead of the left breast for veterans. They are also allowed to march on Anzac Day in their own group for Next of Kin. This group is increasing in large numbers annually. It does look strange when you see some young people loaded down with medals awarded to several members in their families, but they look so proud to display them to the world to show family members who are no longer with us.

Cheers

Tony

[maple_leaf_eh]

@Little Jo - we have a similar controversy every Remembrance Day about junior wearing Granddad's WWII medals. The rules are clear, but earnest amateur heraldry "experts" think they know better. The Royal Canadian Legion's dress regulations have a similar precedence list which includes how to wear their medal on the right side of the blazer.

[Wayne McGee]

The instruction, called a NAVGEN was written by an Admiral on one of his last days of work before he steps down. It sounds like a retired naval officer, in Naval Mess Kit, probably attending the admirals' retirement dinner, acted in a manner unbecoming (imagine that)
It doesn't appear that the admiral thought this one thru and fur is still flying.
The rules concerning the wearing of uniforms by those who are not in the military are directed towards those who are trying to commit some kind of fraud by doing so.
As far as former serving members attending a Mess Dinner, wearing Mess Kit which was purchased out of their own pocket.....what's the issue.

Cheers

[charlie fitton]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

The instruction, called a NAVGEN was written by an Admiral on one of his last days of .....what's the issue.

Cheers

Wayne:
Thanks for the background, and ".50 cal ammo can" made me bark with laughter...

as for the rest of you - I'll take this to silly extremes...Does this mean that the Fort Henry Guard will now have to dress differently?

f

[Jon Skagfeld]

Just chiming in here...I wore my DEU whilst I attended Nov 11 ceremonies while still serving.

After my CRA release, 2005, I continued to do so as recently as last year and intend to carry on.

If I was allowed to keep my uniform, why can't I wear it on auspicious occasions?

Should someone question me, I can produce my NDI 75.

[universalgrl]

I was considering painting my MK I carrier pink Maybe not HOT pink but there is nothing wrong with the desert camo schemes like the SAS pink jeeps.
Just to be different from everybody else and their 34087 olive drab lusterless whatever's.

If you can't take a joke I know where you can pick up a very nice bridge over a lovely swamp. Cheap.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Just chiming in here...I wore my DEU whilst I attended Nov 11 ceremonies while still serving.

After my CRA release, 2005, I continued to do so as recently as last year and intend to carry on.

If I was allowed to keep my uniform, why can't I wear it on auspicious occasions?

Should someone question me, I can produce my NDI 75.

The practice of wearing current CF uniform after retirement is not allowed and you could incur the wrath of Civvie/Military police. Whether a judge would throw away the key is fully dependant on 'intent'.
Although Mess Dress is privately purchased, it is still an order of dress of the CF and permission must be sought to wear it in retirement from DHH.
The initial stink was caused by an unknown person attending the dinner wearing a uniform of a Captain, RCN. This idividual had no ribbons and was ubnknown to any of the other guests. When asked to identify himself he admitted that he was an 'admirer' of the Navy and dressed the part in honour of the RCN. The memo that followed was to address that particular transgression but it also caught up a couple of retired Navy types in Mess Dress who had not obtained DHH approval.
Personally, I wore a uniform when I was paid to. I would not wear one today as I would not wish to be mistaken for a serving soldier. This is in respect to those that are in service and all of the risks inherent to that duty.
DUCIMUS
Clive

[rob love]

Well stated Clive.....100% agreement with all you have said.

The fellow in the RCN Navy outfit had a neat idea.......banquet crashing. I would hate to pass out at a Navy gathering though. You know the old joke: How does the Navy separate the men from the boys? With a crowbar.

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by rob love

... You know the old joke: How does the Navy separate the men from the boys? With a crowbar.

No longer done in the Navy (so sayth an old tar whom I chat with from time to time when bored senseless). They now use hot water.

Back to reality - yes, permission is required by former members to wear mess dress at functions including weddings and mess dinners. My naval acquaintance recently went through this process, which turned out to be a fairly easy "evolution".

Personally, since I no longer fit my mess dress (no, not a real dress), I won't wear it. Instead, I wear a dinner jacket (and pants - for those who would find it necessary to take the time to ask) and black tie.

It would be fun to see a Military Policeman running in a retired senior officer for wearing his mess togs without authorization...

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

It would be fun to see a Military Policeman running in a retired senior officer for wearing his mess togs without authorization...

There are times when judgement is called upon. I remember being a Junior officer in Petawawa and cramming on my Military Law course with a colleague. In the Mess were two generals, one the Base CO, the other visiting. Over a period of time their discussion became quite heated and I pointed out to my friend the section in my book that said that 'any officers involved in a fray, quarrel, or disorder...' could be placed under arrest by any other officer. He declined.

[Ed Storey]

For those who continue to wear their CF/DEU Uniform to military events long after retirement or those who are considering to continue this practice. Stop, take a good look at what Clive wrote, go and hang your old uniform in the closest and let it shrink with the other clothing. Now head out and purchase a nice blazer and flannels. On this legal civilian attire you can festoon it with all of bling acquired from a rewarding military career and wear it with honour to any military event.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by servicepub

....
The initial stink was caused by an unknown person attending the dinner wearing a uniform of a Captain, RCN. This idividual had no ribbons and was ubnknown to any of the other guests. When asked to identify himself he admitted that he was an 'admirer' of the Navy and dressed the part in honour of the RCN. The memo that followed was to address that particular transgression but it also caught up a couple of retired Navy types in Mess Dress who had not obtained DHH approval.
....

So if the problem is one fashion-statement, why the H3LL is the rest of the country suffering? Sounds like a very cowardly way of administering discipline. The bum should have been frog marched out to the street on the balls of his feet.

[Stan Leschert]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For those who continue to wear their CF/DEU Uniform to military events long after retirement or those who are considering to continue this practice. Stop, take a good look at what Clive wrote, go and hang your old uniform in the closest and let it shrink with the other clothing. Now head out and purchase a nice blazer and flannels. On this legal civilian attire you can festoon it with all of bling acquired from a rewarding military career and wear it with honour to any military event.

Listen to the smart one.

When I left, everything had to be turned back in.

I now have 3 sets of Legion Uniforms, seasons .... (too much food)

Much prefer it this way.