VICKERS MK6B's resto

[Howard]

Originally Posted by colin jones

...If I was paid by the hour I'd be putting in quite a hefty bill by now...

Colin, like everyone else I have been enjoying this thread immensely.
Your comment above made me wonder... are you keeping a trqack of your hours spent on these beasties?
H

[David Dunlop]

Hi Colin.

I am intrigued by those cupolas. Can’t help but think they would put quite a strain on the turret ring when the vehicle was not on level ground.

If the cupola is mounted off centre and the tank is at a high angle position, I would think the weight of the cupola would want to swing the entire turret until the cupola was at the low point.

Maybe that is why modern tank turrets are so symmetrical.

Beautiful work, by the way. Can’t wait to see the first one under its own power. Will you be at the controls???

David

[colin jones]

Bob, they would certainly make for a very different BBQ and the name "Vickers " has already been taken.

Howard, I did start to keep track of some hours but after the first 500 or so I just gave up. As it's been just over a year since I first started it would be a couple of thousand by now as there has been many many days of 12+ hours or more but who's counting. Interesting though, I'd be curious what sort of hours some guys would have spent doing their projects if they kept track .

David, I don't think it would cause too much of an issue as there would be quite a bit of weight at the turret basket with two men, radio batteries, Ammo and anything else that was at the bottom. The traversing gear has a hand release brake to stop it turning when not wanted and I would estimate the Cupola at around 100kg. There would be a fair weight at the front as well with the two Vickers guns and I can tell you one thing, I will definitely be at the controls when they do their first powered trial and I will certainly have it video recorded. I am still full of enthusiasm every single day I work on them because they are just so different.

[Little Jo]

Hi Colin

Just a quick note to let you know how much we in the WVCG are enjoying following your restoration project. All I can say is Great work and we look forward to every new step of the progress of this fantastic project. Have you received my emails as I am not sure if you got them. I have misplace your details somewhere and I am unable to locate it. Keep up placing your photos on the progress, we look forward to every step.

Cheers

Tony

[colin jones]

Hi Tony, yes I did get your email
I had to do another part to the ball race that I just got the info for. It is another ring that is on the inside of the race and under the gear and this is how the turret is kept on as it has 5 or 6 clips that are bolted to the turret and go under the ring. I had not really seen how this part works as it is covered with a metal flashing. I only noticed it last night while going through all my photos and drawing again.

[colin jones]

Lucky for me there was just enough room to fit the ring and it just slipped into the opening perfect with a couple of mm to spare. Now it's ready to drill and bolt into position. I also did some more of the domed hatch covers and handles.

[colin jones]

Another turret part made for each one today. I'm not sure exactly what goes behind it in the turret so perhaps there might be someone here that could tell me. From the drawing I have it looks like some kind of fan that is in the turret and this piece is on the out side as a cover or something. It is located towards the front on the drivers side and has a smoke launcher bracket directly above and slightly overlaps it.

[Big D]

Hi Colin,

More stunning fabrication. It is a real treat watching your progress.

[Douglas Greville]

Colin. Many thanks. Interesting info that will come in handy.
Regards
Doug

Originally Posted by colin jones

Doug, I just found the old thread of the clips I made from a wood saw.

[Jonathan Moore]

Colin,

Amazing work and a joy to follow.

Stunning, truly stunning.

Jonathan

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by colin jones

Another turret part made for each one today. I'm not sure exactly what goes behind it in the turret so perhaps there might be someone here that could tell me. From the drawing I have it looks like some kind of fan that is in the turret and this piece is on the out side as a cover or something. It is located towards the front on the drivers side and has a smoke launcher bracket directly above and slightly overlaps it.

I bet it's the fan and exhaust that blows across the guns to vent the fumes they produce when firing.

[colin jones]

Thankyou for your comments and Bruce, I think you are spot on. I was trying to think why there would be a fan in that specific location.

[George Moore]

Correct, most armoured vehicles had an extractor fan to remove the fumes from the guns.
There should be some sort of opening, to vent them, so I need to look again at those drawings.

I know for sure that Humber A/C had a variety of arrangements for the different Mk's with a small opening on the side covered with an armoured "box" and the fan housed the other side again in an armoured "box" with an opening at the bottom.

Amazing work Colin, I am in absolute awe.

Through your endeavours, in my own small way I have managed this.

Thanks.
George.

[George Moore]

Just to refresh the conversation re the fan, I have the 1937 booklet on light tanks covering MkII to VI.

Strangely there are no mentions of a fan for the MkV or VI, there is not even a circuit for one shown on the wiring diagrams !!

A closer look at the drawings does not indicate where the air would be drawn in or expelled.....there is that cowling on the front top of the turret ???????

The bulge, I have a number of walk-round views of the turret, I had thought (stupidly) there may have been a small vent on the underside of the bulge....there isn't.

What I do not have is any internal views of the turret, Colin I believe you may have contacts with the museums in your part of the world, can they help in sorting out how the fumes were vented.

Of interest, some years ago the (British) Fox armoured car with the 30mm gun was taken out of active service as the HSE determined there was inadequate ventilation for the fumes......I guess HSE did not exist in the 30's and 40's !!!!!

George.

[Chris Suslowicz]

I think the Fox comment has things backwards. A number of Foxes (Foxen?) were sold off minus the turrets because they had been removed to replace the 76mm turret on the Scorpion tank. (The Scorpion had the fume build-up problem (insufficient ventilation causing a build-up of carbon monoxide, I think).)

Chris.

[David Dunlop]

Colin.

If the turret fan is mounted in the upper front left area, odds are is would be blowing air to the right side, across the guns.

Is it possible the intent was to direct the gun fumes towards that side of the vehicle because of the presence of the large, long external shroud locate on the right side of the vehicle? Perhaps, with the vehicle in motion, airflow passing that shroud drew air out of the interior of the tank in some way, and the fan helped the process along. That shroud assembly might be multifunctional.

David

[David Herbert]

I have no detail knowledge of the light tanks but normal British practice was that the fan extracted air from the turret so was normally placed as close as possible to the gun. Fresh air that replaced that extracted would then carry any fumes towards the fan, thus concentrating and then removing them.

Regarding the replacement of Scorpion turrets, this was done to take them out of the count of British tanks when we were agreeing to a reduction in our forces under the CFE treaty. Fume build up could have been solved with fans etc.

The Foxes were taken out of service because people kept rolling them - they are great fun to drive !

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I expect the fan is drawing air across the guns and out (suction). If it was going the other way (blowsion?) the fumes would just disburse into the turret despite a vent on the opposite side. The Fox has a similar fan on the left (vent) and a slot with a cover on the right (intake). At first I thought the fan was for crew comfort. Silly me.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Colin.

If the turret fan is mounted in the upper front left area, odds are is would be blowing air to the right side, across the guns.

Is it possible the intent was to direct the gun fumes towards that side of the vehicle because of the presence of the large, long external shroud locate on the right side of the vehicle? Perhaps, with the vehicle in motion, airflow passing that shroud drew air out of the interior of the tank in some way, and the fan helped the process along. That shroud assembly might be multifunctional.

David

[George Moore]

Sorry and apologies for getting my "facts" mixed up re the Scorpion and Fox turrets.

I am sure however the fan was a "sucker" rather than a "blower", which made me look for any form of vent or opening. However this idea is based on those fitted to armoured cars.

What does surprise me is that the fan is shown on the drawings, but there are no circuit or wiring references on any of the wiring diagrams I have seen.

George.

[colin jones]

Sorry for the lack of response as we have been away for a couple of weeks and just got back today. I have missed my shed terribly I need to do some more homework as to the exact use of that part as everything I have shows that it is a fan and there is no intake from the pyramid. I will make contact with the Pucka museum in Victoria and ask if they would kindly take an internal photo for me.

[colin jones]

George, that is fantastic detail that you have done and every part most certainly looks very clear to me. I have also put a phot of the bovington one here so you can definitely see that there is no air intake holes.

[David Herbert]

I am almost certain that the triangular bump is simply to provid clearance to something inside - amunition tray possibly ? The fitting shown in the top right photo above is a standard AFV fitting of the day and protects a hole in the plate it is fixed to and would normally have a cable coming through it, I expect for a spot light.

David

[George Moore]

There is that probability, the opening it covers would allow some movement or extra space in that area.
I note that is fixed by screws, and not riveted in place, so was it perhaps removable ??
The other fitment is a cable cover, a common fitting on other armoured vehicles and carriers especially.
The turret drawing showing the fan in place like a lot of other stuff asks more questions than it answers, and I am still at a loss as to why there is no mention in any of the wiring diagrams, it must have been able to switch on and off, but there is no circuit shown.

Having got this far into the rebuild it is annoying not to know.....just for the heck of it if nothing else.

George.

[David Herbert]

Just thought, the cable cover could be to protect the bowden cable that operates the 4" bomb thrower though I think that spot light is more likely.

The slotted head screws holding the triangular cover is something I had not spotted (on a rather small screen at the time). A very odd detail.

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Just thought, the cable cover could be to protect the bowden cable that operates the 4" bomb thrower though I think that spot light is more likely.

The slotted head screws holding the triangular cover is something I had not spotted (on a rather small screen at the time). A very odd detail.

David

Hi David,
I did the electrical installation on the Vickers that went to the Littlefield Collection and can say that the cable cover in question was not for the spotlight cable. It has to be for the bomb thrower as there was one on the other side as well.

Regarding the question of the plate on the left of the turret, maybe the photo attached will throw more light on the subject. With acknowledgment to Mike Cecil, it is a photo from his archive which he sent to me when I published an article of his on the Australian MkVIa tanks. It is a RYPA training rig and was found in the 1980's on the training area at Puckapunyal. You can see the bulbous plate is not present, but the cut out is and below it is possibly a clue. I think it possible an ammo box was stowed and the cover was to give extra space for it. I do not have any interiors of the one I worked on unfortunately. We had a lot of unanswered questions on that one, for instance we never found a picture of the retractable signalling lamp.


In case anyone is wondering, RYPA stands for Rolling-Yawing-Pitching Assembly

[colin jones]

I think David Herbert is spot on with it's use as a closer look at the many photos I have, I can now pick something in the photo attached. The shape of the pyramid had me puzzled but the photo puts it in total perspective. In the first photo you can see a tray on the left that would hold a Vickers ammo box and it is shown on an angle that would fit perfectly into the recess and that part is on the curved section of the turret on the same side as the Vickers. In the second photo on the right, you can just see the beginning of the open recess I will get confirmation on this but I am confident that is the answer.
Half the fun is solving problems and questions and learning.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by colin jones

I think David Herbert is spot on with it's use as a closer look at the many photos I have, I can now pick something in the photo attached. The shape of the pyramid had me puzzled but the photo puts it in total perspective. In the first photo you can see a tray on the left that would hold a Vickers ammo box and it is shown on an angle that would fit perfectly into the recess and that part is on the curved section of the turret on the same side as the Vickers. In the second photo on the right, you can just see the beginning of the open recess I will get confirmation on this but I am confident that is the answer.
Half the fun is solving problems and questions and learning.

Hi Colin,
Glad to be of help, I suddenly remembered the photos of the RYPA and it became obvious then.

regards, Richard

[colin jones]

Richard, that photo of the training aid certainly confirms the need for the tray access and in the photo here it shows the tray for the Besa gun and the need to "NOT" have an access on the other side. Perhaps this is why they used those two particular guns as they feed from opposite sides. I did wonder why they used two totally different guns. Perhaps some one can confirm that the Besa does feed from the right. Actually I think the Vickers feeds from the right or is the feed block reversible.

[Mike Cecil]

Vickers .303 MMG ordinarily feeds from the right side,and nothing in the manuals I have mentions anything about the feedblock being reversible. Thinking back about working on a Vickers, the direction of feed is not reversible - it would require a different feed block (at least) to feed in the opposite direction. For a live demo, ...

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPv_f_aSyP4

However, the used cloth belt needs to drop into something akin to an ammo box in a tank turret - cannot have them 'dribbling' onto the floor and jambing things up. This leaves the question: where was the .303 inch belt box with the live ammunition, assuming the Vickers used was fed from the right as per normal? Maybe under the .50 cal Vickers gun adjacent?

If you look at the AWM image of the RYPA being used, it shows an angled ammunition box support on the right side of the 'turret', which I assume is the same as in the tank. This would seem to be the support for the .50 inch Vickers Short ammunition box.

See https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C11056

Mike

[colin jones]

Thanks for the info Mike. In the photo here, it clearly shows a ammo tray both sides for each gun and one in the centre which I assume is for the right fed Vickers and perhaps the spent ones drop into the other side. More questions?? Just an edit after looking again at the photo. I would have to say the live rounds come from the centre as it is connected to the gun mount so as the gun moves up and down so too does the ammo box to keep is flowing at the same angle as the gun. It is making more sense now.