Scout Car unit ID?

[AKosion]

Folks,

Wondering if you could help me with this. I'm attaching a still from a Pathe film shot in Rimini in September 1944. Any chance of identifying which unit it belongs to? Apparently it's got a red/white/red flash on the side, and two-colour camo (maybe black and light mud?).
Many thanks in advance!

Best Regards
Aris Kosionidis

[AKosion]

Sorry, forgot the still! This technology stuff sure is complicated.

Aris

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Aris,

The red-white-red flash is a sign of the 1st Canadian Corps in Italy. However, the scout car you picture appears to have an American ID number. Strange... but it COULD be one of those atttached (or lent to) the Royal Westminster Regiment (the 'Westies') who did use the M-3s in Italy. One of their officers won a VC there in these things.

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=824

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by AKosion
Apparently it's got a red/white/red flash on the side,

Hi Aris;

What you are looking at is the AFV Recognition Sign of red/white/red that was used on Cdn AFVs/carriers from Sicily through the Italian Campaign, up until the spring of 1944, when the US star was adopted as the standard AFV Recognition marking. This sign was carried on either the transmission housing or lower glacis and lower hull sides of tanks, and was also carried on the front/sides/rear of most armoured cars/scout cars and carriers. The red/white/red Recognition Sign was used in combination with a roundel of red, white and blue, similar to early war RAF roundels. These roundals were carried on turret tops, engine decks/covers, where space permitted. Even with the adoption of the U.S. type star, the red/white/red Recognition Sign was still seen being carried for sometime after the official date of it being discontinued, which was 11 April 1944.

As to the unit ID, the picture doesn't give any clear clue.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Attached: your picture along with a colour sample of the red/white/red AFV Recognition Sign

[John McGillivray]

As Geoff pointed out the ID number on the side of the engine hood dose not conform to either British or Canadian markings. Could the Scout Car be from the 3rd Greek Mountain Brigade? This unit was under the command of the 1st Canadian Corps and is credited with liberating Rimini on the 21st of September, 1944.

[AKosion]

Folks,

First of all, thanks for all the answers, and especially to Mark for the background to the ID flash. I guess I had a hope someone would say "Of course! The RCD's characteristic (insert obscure detail)!" or some other units marking idiosyncracies would be visible. Of course, expecting an ID from a couple of seconds of film was a long shot to say the least.

John McGillivray's suggestion that this is a 3rd Mntn Bde vehicle took me a bit by surprise. The Bde did indeed have 3 otherwise unidentified "Armoured Cars" in its Field Artillery Regt, but I've always assumed they were Otters. I think that the presence of the flash rules it out as an option, as it was not an organic part of the Corps- for example, 2nd NZ Div also served under the Corps, but their vehicles lack the red-white-red. Also, the Bde was equipped in the summer of '44, after the flash was discontinued. However, as Greek WW2 military markings are a very confusing subject, it would probably be premature to reject any idea- and further digging will be rewarding anyway!

Once again, thanks for the help.

Aris

[John McGillivray]

Hello Aris,

There seems to be some confusion here regarding the red/white/red sign on the side of the Scout Car. It is not a unit or formation sign. It is not the formation sign for the 1st Canadian Corps. As Mark pointed out, it looks like an AFV Recognition Sign. This was a sign found on many British and Commonwealth Armoured vehicles. Its official use was ended in the spring of 1944, when it was to be replaced by the white American star. However, it continued to be seen on many vehicles long after that. I have seen some pictures of the red/white/red AFV Recognition Sign on British vehicles in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

Below is a picture of the formation sign of 1st Canadian Corps. As you can see, it dose not resemble the sign on the side of the Scout Car. Also, formation signs are usually displayed on the front and rear of the vehicle, and not on the side. The Corps formation signs were only carried by units directly part of the Corps. Units, which were part of Divisions or Brigades under Corps Command would not carry the Corps formation sign, but would use their own Division or Brigade formation signs.

The White Scout Car was often used in Field Artillery Regiments. They were employed as Battery Command Posts and by the Gun Position Officers (GPO). In addition to the Command post crew (officer, signallers and arty techs); they carried the radios and field telephones as well as tech stores (plotting boards, survey equipment, etc.) The Scout Car in the photo looks like it could be in use as a command post and not as a TCV (troop carrying vehicle).

Another reason that I think that it may belong to the Greek Brigade, is the historical context. Troops from the Royal Canadian Regiment were the first to enter Rimini on the 19th of Sept. 1944. However, they were ordered to get out of the city so that the Greeks could “liberate” it. The Greeks only entered Rimini on the 21st of Sept. The following is from the book “The Gothic Line” by Mark Zuehlke:

“The decision that Rimini was to be "liberated" by the Greek brigade was made by Eighth Army and was intended to give this pro-Greek Monarchist unit a morale boost and also to generate support in Greece for the return of the monarchy after that nation's liberation from German occupation. Already, Greece was a focal point for conflict between a Soviet-backed Communist movement and the American-British backed monarchists. The RCR thus fell afoul of political manoeuvring. In fact, the length to which the military went to maintain the illusion that Canadian troops were never inside Rimini was extensive. All records were purged from official histories, except for the RCR'S War Diary, which uses the codename 'Fulmar' for Rimini in its discussion of the orders given to Gregg's company and to 'D' Company prior to the order for those units to withdraw.”

Therefore it made sense that a newsreel shot in Rimini in Sept. 1944, would show the Greeks liberating the city, and would not be showing Canadian troops.

John

[AKosion]

John,

Thanks for setting me straight about the red-white-red flash. Mea culpa. I think that the absence of the flash on NZ vehicles serving under I Cdn Corps might have given me a tip to the wrong direction (that's right, blame the Kiwis!). Also I remember seeing the flash used in conjunction with the star on an M3 GMC marked "Acorn Inn", and since Acorn is a word associated with Canadian Armour...as Obi-Wan put it, "weak minds are easily influenced".
The rather extensive silencing of the Royal Canadians' entry into Rimini was another unknown, and, to be honest, quite a surprise. Although giving the III Bde the honour of liberating the town for morale reasons (or even as a reward for its first hard battle) is understandable, I fail to see how the "creative editing" of post-war history could have influenced things in Greece. Of course, the cold war is not exactly a time characterised by sanity. Interestingly enough, the New Zealanders' histories cheerfully record that their patrols (from units supporting the Greeks) were the first into Rimini.
Anyway, you've made a good case for the Scout to be from III Bde, and even if it turns out otherwise, it will still have been fun clearing it up! Thanks.

Best regards
Aris