LP2 SAR Hull No 316 Restoration.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hello everyone,

First of all I need to introduce myself, my name is Matt Stephenson, I'm a police officer from the Albury-Wodonga area and the proud owner of LP2 South Australian Railways Hull number 316, built in 1941.

I purchased the hull in a fairly badly cut down state from a mechanic, who in turn had bought it from a farmer who had it on his farm since the Army disposed of it way back when..... As with most carriers it was used, abused and modified, at some point having a dozer blade attached to the front. It also became a valuable source of flat steel the farmer could easily access with an oxy torch whenever the need arose. Now its up to me to try and put it back to how it should be.

I've been fortunate enough that I've grown up around vintage and veteran vehicles and have some experience with the restoration process, just not with a military vehicle though. I'm by no means an expert, and will never claim to be, so please forgive if from time to time my questions sound silly, or the answer is obvious.

To date, I've begun the process of restoring the old girl to her former glory, and the long task of chasing down missing parts, equipment and bits and pieces to do it right. Prior to being accepted onto the forum, I have viewed the restoration of Darrin Wright's carrier in awe. He certainly sets a very high standard that I can only hope to emulate and achieve with mine.

Anyway, attached are a few pics of my carrier as I bought it. I will post more pics of the restoration as it proceeds. Thanks for having me on your forum.

Matt.

[Ryan]

Hi Matt welcome to MLU.


No such thing as a silly question. Ask away, ask again and again. You'll get help here.

If there was such a thing as a silly question I would have been banned here a long time ago.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Matt, and welcome! You are in the right place.
The really silly questions are like the really hard ones. People just don't answer.
Sometimes even the easy ones don't get an answer because life gets in the way.
I guess that means you just ask anyhow.

[Keith Webb]

Hi Matt, good to see your first post! I realised as I added your carrier to the database I should not have added the 'A' to 'LP2' when I created your signature on registration, so feel free to correct that.
I'm sure you'll enjoy and be enriched by your experience here on MLU.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you for the welcome to the forum and community here, and for the interest shown in my project. I have some updates and a little progress made with the restoration.

I've learn't that the Bandiana barracks located in Wodonga was a centre for disposing of surplus materiel after the war....including bren gun carriers. Given the situation after the war, it came as not much of a surprise to learn that much of this surplus equipment found its way onto farms, supplementing or replacing farm machinery and equipment used by farmers, as was the case with my hull. Well, recently I've been fortunate enough to come across another hull that was on a farm - see attached pics.

This hull was also cut up and abused by the farmer, who also at some point needed and a ford engine and gearbox, and chose to obtain these from the hull of the carrier by simply cutting the floor of the hull, and lifting the bit he didn't want (the hull) away. Fortunately for me, much of the front upper armour plate was still in situ. I've bought the entire hull (what's left of it), and it will become a parts donor for my hull, replacing what has been cut away. Its been moved to a mate's property where I intend to cut away the bits I need....

Unfortunately, no builder's plate or stamp to identify the hull or manufacturer.

Matt

[Keith Webb]

Another good find Matt! The Hull number and manufacturer was also stamped in to the angle iron piece at the inside rear just above the diff, looks like that piece is still in place.

[lynx42]

Nice project Matt.

Is 316 an LP2 or an LP2A?

The new pickup is an LP2A late build as the tools are located across the rear not along the side as with the earlier ones.

Keep the photo coming as we are all interested.

Regards Rick.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Matt,

Welcome to the forum.

Your 'Machine Gun Carrier' was built by SAR as an LP2, and was originally registered under the Uniform Commonwealth Registration scheme as C-22033. On 26 May 1942, the registration was changed to the hull number '316'. It was originally built with a 1938 rear axle with the splined pinion and a ratio of 6.66 to 1 (marked 6-40 on the casing). It is the rear axle assembly that denotes the difference between the LP2 and the LP2A: the LP2A having a 1940 type rear axle with a tapered pinion and woodruf key.

First engine fitted to Hull 316 was engine number 1G4992F.

Army inspectors accepted carriers from SAR around hull number 310 in April 1941, so I suggest your carrier was received by the Army in April/early May 1941. It was manufactured as part of MGO Order Number 698 issued in August 1940.

Your second carrier donor hull: As Keith said, check the flat horizontal strap on the inside face of the rear hull plate, just above the aperture that the diff protrudes through. On that should be stamped the manufacturing plant and the hull number of your second carrier. As Rick said, the tools on that one are across the rear, so most likely to be an LP2A manufactured with a hull number higher than about 2700, however, this is not definitive, as tool stowage on some earlier carriers was also moved to the later position as a modification. Most earlier carriers, however, were left in their original configuration, so I suggest that Hull 316 would probably have been that way when it came out of service.

At least you have some good private examples close at hand to look at. Pity access to AMB is not available at the moment, though.

You'll be attending Corowa, I assume, for a real MV initiation, and you can put faces to some of the nom de plumes we use here!!!

Mike C

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi all,

I've checked the piece above the aperture above where the gearbox mates with the diff. There appears to be the remains of "STH....." however the rest has been obliterated by tool marks, damage and slag etc from where it was cut up previously. My best guess is another produced by South Australian Railways, but given its overall state that's the best I can surmise.

Thanks heaps Mike for the info about my hull. I have been intending to travel to the War Memorial at some time to try and locate the ARN for my hull, and hopefully which regiment it was allocated to, this will save me a fair bit of time and effort trying to locate those details with the info you've provided.

I already made a start cutting parts away from both hulls to begin the transplant process. Got to be careful with the grinders to make sure I don't start a fire..... while doing this, I have found evidence of disruptive camouflage painted on my lower hull, which can kinda be seen in the 1st pic. My son's Thomas train set has temporarily found a home on top of the carrier...luckily it easy to move whenever I need to.

I've got some time off when Corowa is on, so I will definitely be making the trip there, and hope to have the opportunity to meet some of you there.

Matt.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi all,

I was fortunate enough to make it to Corowa last week, and to meet a lot of very interesting people who also share a love for military vehicles. Seeing the restored carriers running at Corowa is inspiration to get on with the task in front of me. In my opinion, the best of all were Darrin and Euan's carriers, both looked and sounded awesome, and it was great to see both of them running. Corowa was also a good opportunity to spend some money on a few bits I was missing.

Anyway, as I had some time off from work, I made some progress with the de-construction and re-construction of my carrier. I took the time to remove some of the damaged and cut up plates in preparation of replacing them with complete sections from the donor hull. I'm fortunate that one of the people that I work with was a boiler maker by trade, prior to a career change, and has willingly volunteered his time and expertise in welding the new replacement sections onto the hull. Needless to say, I'm impressed by his welding skills and ability, considering the difficulties in welding face hardened armour plate. I'll let the pics speak for themselves.

Also, while looking around the rear of the hull, and clearing away many years accumulation of dirt and dust, I made a pleasant discovery on the rear hull plate, slightly obscured by the diff. I found what appears to be original sign writing, which I can only guess was applied at the time of construction. I believe it says; "Army Inspectorate / South Australian Railways / Islington" I measured the letters to 2" tall at the highest, with a space of 1.5" between each line, and evidence of the original lines still apparent. I've also attached a pic for your consideration. I intend to replicate this during the restoration.... but this will still be some way off yet.

Enjoy the pics. Any questions or comments, please don't hesitate.

Matt.

[John Mackie]

Welcome to MLU and the carrier mob.
I bought an uncut carrier hull from Corowa about .
1975. It lay upside down in my yard for 30+ years while I collected enough parts to re-assemble it.
It was at Corowa in 2008, much fun! I have been working on Fords since the 50's and have som\e carrier spares.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hello again,

Not much to update with the carrier, as there hasn't been much opportunity recently with work getting in the way....

Anyway, I wanted to post some pics of a recent barn find, while picking on a farm looking for BGC parts and other bits n pieces. They appear to be grenade boxes, and look like they were painted white originally, with the stencil applied to the front, and felt attached to the inside of the lid. The stencil reads: "GRENADE - SMOKE & THERMITE"

What I don't know is from which vehicle they may have come from, and secondly if anyone out there might have a need or use for them in their restoration project? Given that they were painted white, I'm guessing that they originally came from a US produced armoured vehicle, as british vehicles were painted silver internally. Anyway, enjoy the attached pics.

If anyone can shed any light as to their origin and use, or if they are useful for a restoration project, please let me know.

Regards,

Matt.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Matt Stephenson

They appear to be grenade boxes, and look like they were painted white originally, with the stencil applied to the front, and felt attached to the inside of the lid. The stencil reads: "GRENADE - SMOKE & THERMITE"

I agree with them coming from a US produced armoured vehicle; my guess is M3 Medium Tank or M3 Light Tank.

Hanno

[Matt Stephenson]

Just a quick update with some more progress pics. Small steps at the moment. I have also recently found some more parts that I was missing. These were found in a shed on a farm, the farmer had no idea what they were off originally, but had decided to keep them for "just in case"....

Enjoy.

[lynx42]

Hi Matt,
If those air-tubes are of no use to you, please put my name on them as I need them for 2250.(fingers crossed)

Rick

[Matt Stephenson]

Given the responses and interest in my previous post, I'm now considering having copies of the air intake duct work made using my originals as a template.

If anyone is interested, please pm me. I have no idea on price as yet....

[lynx42]

PM sent
Rick.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi all,

I've made some slight progress with the carrier. With the engine and the gearbox now out of the hull this has given me the opportunity to start fixing the hole in the floor cut by its previous owner to allow easier access to the engine sump. Also, as a PTO was fitted to the gearbox at some time, the gear shift was moved across to the left side of the engine, so remedial work has begun to fix this mess too. I've also managed to finish all the tool locating points on the side of hull.

While out picking in the area recently, I have also made some interesting finds. I believe that tracks and ammo storage bins are from a M3 Grant/Lee, and some interesting looking tow points from a ???? If anyone can help ID, or if your interested in the M3 Grant/Lee parts please let me know. Enjoy the pics.

[colin jones]

Excellent work Matt, it always feels good to see progress. Looking at the track and the ammo holders there, I would assume that they are off a grant. Do you happen to know the dia of the ammo holes by chance.
Colin.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi Colin,

No I don't know the diameter but fortunately the ammo racks aren't too far from home, so I should be able to get your answer soon.

[Matt Stephenson]

Progress on the restoration of my LP2 has been slow up until recently, but since taking some long overdue leave from work, and also having built up a fairly sizable bank of "nag-free" hours, I got in and got some much needed work done.

The engine and gearbox was removed from the hull in late March, exposing a decent size hole in the floor courtesy of a farmer and a gas-axe, all in order to facilitate the fitting of a PTO for a crude winch. This has been nearly completely rectified now, with only the welds to be ground down smooth. I also took the time to make up new bracket/mounting points for the floor in the front driver's/gunner's section as most of these were deteriorated beyond salvage, with most of the bolt hole having the snapped-off bolts still in situ.

As a South Australian Railways hull, there is a quite prominent and unusually shaped piece on the floor between the driver and gunner. This piece on mine had previously been cut and damaged during its former life, with about 2/3 of the original still in place. I debated for a while only replacing the missing section, but in the end decided to replace the entire piece. I think it will be well worth it in the end.... Also welded on the rear mud guards.... not much, I know, but one more thing off the to-do-list.

Finally, the ATO was kind enough to give me some of my hard earned back to me in the form of a tax return. On being told by the accountant how much I was getting back, I exclaimed to the Minister for Nagriculture that it was what I needed to get the carrier sandblasted and painted... Expecting the usual response, I was surprised to hear her say...."Sure, go for it." After picking my jaw back up off the ground and checking that she did say that, and I wasn't in some alternate reality, I am now working toward getting the hull ready so it can go away and come back Khaki green. I'm hoping to get it done in about 8 to 12 weeks when the weather warms up some more, and there isn't as much moisture about.

Progress pics attached.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

looks like a lot of hard work ,I may have met you at Corowa ? I left a card with mate of yours breath testing me a few months back lol when was chasing tank stuff up in NSW
anyway matt if you need carrier parts let me know took a few bits to corowa last march and will be there with more next year always searching for tank and artillery stuff currently doing up a m3 early lee made 5/42 and a staghound ex norforce . sent this just in case he did not give you card
regards
rod

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

mat your email is returning on my mail out send me email of your latest
regards
rod

[Matt Stephenson]

Progress is......progressing, but not as much as I had hoped.

Lately, I've had some long needed time away from work, which was an excellent opportunity to get some work done on the carrier, with the hope of getting it sandblasted and painted before going back to work.

I made up a list of things that needed to be accomplished before it could go away, which I guessed wasn't too great a task to achieve, however a spanner was thrown in the works, and its still not quite ready to go just yet.

I started off with some greatly appreciated help from Darrin Wright, who helped me to split the tracks. The mounting brackets on the floor in the front drivers/gunners section were all replaced and welded in. The mounting brackets for the Lewis ammo box and the ration boxes were also welded in place, but this is were it all came to a massive train wreck of a halt.

My previous attempts to fix the hole left in the floor under the engine and gearbox was no good. All the welds from the original steel to the new steel cracked, despite pre-heating and using different types of wire in the mig welder. Faced with this problem I consulted the local brains trust and tired to educate myself further by doing a google search, which revealed a previous thread on MLU on the problem of welding old face hardened, fatigued and brittle steel. After reading the thread and then talking with a mate who is a mechanical engineer and has much more experience welding than me, it was decided to cut out the section back to the engine rails and make it a more neater section to replace. So with the new floor plate plate piece, with the taping frames for the sump and gearbox already welded on, the new piece was carefully welded in using and arc/stick welder. I cant recall the type of welding rods used, but I do know that it has worked, and that the new piece is securely welded in place with no evidence of any cracking or welds not sticking.

I have since decided to leave the welds on the floor as is, as grinding them smooth might be tempting fate, and given that its under the engine, which itself is under a cover, then they are not readily noticeable.

Moving on from that drama, I began to grind all the other welds smooth from the reconstruction of the missing upper armour plates, and rebuild part of the missing mounting frame for the instrument panel, and then re-tap the multitude of mounting blocks for all the fittings in the carrier.

It was about this time that I decided that I was rushing things, and that I was rushing for no other reason to try and get it in and sandblasted while I was off on leave from work. I then remembered something my Dad told me once when I was younger; "Rushing only leads to cutting corners and stuff ups, which you will only regret later on". A quick phone call to the sandblaster had it postponed to a date to be confirmed.

I've still got a bit left to do before its actually ready to go away for sandblasting and paint. I still need to take out the driver's floor plate and steering column, unbolt the diff from the hull and remove the front idlers on their mounting plates from the hull. I also need to weld on some new exhaust shrouds under the hull, as the old ones were bent and twisted out of shape. As yet, I've got no bloody idea how I'm going to get that one done....

Lately, I've also been experimenting with paint colours for the carrier. Gina's recent thread on colours has been very helpful, and will help greatly on the final Khaki Green colour it get painted. I did do a test pot I had made up on part of the side of the hull, but it looks more olive green than khaki green to me.....

I've also done some work on the instrument cluster, which you can see in the attached pic.

For now, progress has slowed a bit, but I am enjoying the work more than I was when it felt I was rushing. The restoration of my carrier was never intended to be a race, it was intended as something I can enjoy and to help take my mind off the crap I have to deal with every other day at work.

Comments, criticism and advice welcome as always.

[colin jones]

Hi Matt, your carrier is looking good! Haste certainly can make waste and I can tell you from experience. I would not grind the floor weld either as they are never seen. When ever I have done welding on carriers I do cut back where I can to have clean steel to weld to and have always run my welder quite hot and always used gas and not gasless. I just don't think you get enough heat out of the small portable migs but your floor repair looks very good. Keep up the good work and pics.
Colin.

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi All,

Not much progress on the carrier lately as we begin to enter the silly season at work. I recently picked up a ration/utensil box from a rural junk/antique shop. It has a slot cut into the back and was painted yellow, and had been used as a letterbox. It had something like 6 layers of enamel paint which, aside from being a pain in the a%*e to remove had preserved and protected the box well over the years. Once stripped there was absolutely no rust, just a couple of minor dents and dings but nothing major after the better part of 70 years.

Also, last week I was fortunate enough to take a look at a recent arrival to Albury. Its not CMP, allied or even a land vehicle. I got to have a look at what is termed an "Original Rebuild" Focke Wulf FW-190. As it happens the aircraft's owner, who is not a local, had decided to put his collection of original FW-190 parts to good use and have an air frame built around them. I'm told that a minimum 10% original parts are required to meet the requirement of it being classed as an "Original rebuild". Nonetheless, its a thing of beauty, and something that I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to look over, under and all around and take a few photos. I'm told by the owner of the FW-190 it will remain here in Albury for a while along with a few other war birds also residing here, as he learns how to fly it.

As usual, pics attached. All comments welcome.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Matt Stephenson

Also, last week I was fortunate enough to take a look at a recent arrival to Albury. Its not CMP, allied or even a land vehicle. I got to have a look at what is termed an "Original Rebuild" Focke Wulf FW-190. As it happens the aircraft's owner, who is not a local, had decided to put his collection of original FW-190 parts to good use and have an air frame built around them. I'm told that a minimum 10% original parts are required to meet the requirement of it being classed as an "Original rebuild". Nonetheless, its a thing of beauty, and something that I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to look over, under and all around and take a few photos. I'm told by the owner of the FW-190 it will remain here in Albury for a while along with a few other war birds also residing here, as he learns how to fly it.

As usual, pics attached. All comments welcome.

Hmm, registration: VH-WLF is attributed to a Cessna 172 Skyhawk, although it was written off in an accident so the registration may have been reused.

Also, it looks smaller than the original so it may be one of the 80% scale replica's which are being built?

Interesting to see, nevertheless!

[Keith Webb]

I think it's full size Hanno - they wouldn't be making such a fuss here over a scaled down version - we've seen those before.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

I think it's full size Hanno - they wouldn't be making such a fuss here over a scaled down version - we've seen those before.

Keith, maybe a full size one, but still mostly a replica...

"Aircraft restorers have long subscribed to the theory that the most important component for any restoration is the aircraft data plate; anything else can be fabricated."

Ref. http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...d-to-Australia

But like I said, interesting to see, nevertheless!

[Matt Stephenson]

Kieth and Hanno,

The FW-190 is full size, Keith you are absolutely spot on there.

Hanno, yes it is mostly replica. The owner is not making any claims that it is 100% original. For that matter, it is still a Focke Wulf FW-190. For years companies in England, the US and in New Zealand have been using surplus crated aircraft engines and components and putting them into new built Spitfire, Hurricane and Mustang air frames. Does anyone dispute that they are not a Spitfire, Hurricane or a Mustang? I would suggest that a complete original flying FW-190 exist in the same place as Unicorns and Sasquatch, and the few originals to still remain are either too valuable to risk flying or not in an air worthy condition anymore.

Personally, I believe that anyone who is willing to spend such a considerable amount of their money to not only rebuild these things, but to also put them in the air is commendable and worthy of our praise. It is not too dissimilar to what others here on this forum are attempting to do, which ultimately is to preserve history.