Early Mk.I* "TL13F", CB180

[Nech]

Cheers everyone!

Quite new on this forum (so HI to everybody!) finally got my carrier home. Bought in Canada two years ago, transported to Europe and the restoration will follow in the very next months.

I will greet all the good advices from you - experienced carrier owners and restorers, as those are always much aprreciatted.

My carrier is equipped with the well known brass plate fender sign, DOM 3/41 and the serial TL13F. Hull is CB180, the rear serial is unfortunatelly missing, as well as the original front armour serial (I got a Ford's MK.I replacement from 1942). Left protection plate is original, and the rear and the right protection plate is badly cut down.

By the way, I also bought one of the surviving Otter recce cars from Netherlands. Will start a thread in the relevant section.

A long way to go, the journey begins.

[Nech]

Next pictures..

[Michael R.]

Welcome Martin,

TL13, the earliest Canadian data plate known. That will be a great project. A well travelled early Canadian built carrier. Best wishes.

[kevin powles]

Yes, welcome to the forum, nice early carrier, I wish I had an I.d. Plate like that to copy to replace the one missing on my canadian 1940 carrier.

Kevin.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Martin, and welcome to the forum.
A very nice project with some nice original parts.
I note the gear lever knob. The flat style. Not common.
Has someone swapped the rear steps to the opposite sides?

[Mark Pearson]

Welcome to the forum, im very new myself. Im so new that I didn't even know they made Carriers in Canada in 1940 Kevin Powles.

You have a very nice Carrier there indeed. Looking forward to seeing the restoration pictures. I hope to pick up some experience too regarding restoration.

Mark........

[Michael R.]

If serial number 13 was produced in March, 1941 .... you do the math.

The request to Ford Canada was received in May, 1940 for 600 universal carriers. While most (but not all) parts were being produced in North American plants for the Canadian 1940 Model 1 Universal Carrier in 1940 (C01UC), records show the first Canadian produced carrier rolled out of the Ensite plant on 8 February, 1941. By 12 February, 1942, 4,000 had been produced.

On occasion, 1940 dated Ford Canada parts show up, as well as the British parts like Solex carburetors, steering gearbox, instrument gauges and 'Prince of Darkness' headlamps that had been delivered to get as many as the first 2,000 plus carriers out the door.

[Marc van Aalderen]

Good Morning Martin,

Welcome to the greatest forum on the planet. You certainly have bought a very interesting Carrier. Also very complete. Looking forward to your restoration progress. All the best.

Cheers,

[Petr Brezina]

Nice one. Good luck with the resto!

[lssah2025]

Congrats on the two purchases, I have about 60 pictures of your otter if you want them..

[Nech]

Thank you gentleman!

Kevin I believe we can reproduce the dataplate for you from mine somehow.

Lynn what do you mean? The steps are swapped? The rear plate is very incomplete and I think it is not from this carrier at all.

Just now the restoration process begun with my workshop expansion, I am short of space. I believe a lot of us solved the same problem.

Can anyone tell me what parts exactly were british made on this early carrier please? Need to start collecting all the missing bits and the manual+spare parts list I have, is just for all canadian parts.

[Michael R.]

On the vertical differential cover that appears in your posted image, the step usually placed on the driver side has a bracket attached underneath to fit the crow bar. While it appears common to rivet the steps to the plate, there is a transition point or modification to use removable fasteners. The step inserts on early carriers are a composite material. See Ben Hawkins Scout carrier restoration as a reference. Eventually all composite or rubber material for rear compartment firing rests, most straps and the rear step inserts changed over to wood, webbing and checker plate.

Nigel Watson published a page listing the major portions of the British manufactured parts that were shipped to Ford Canada. Those parts show on the Canadian government orders as well as British Supply Ministry orders. There are multiple image examples of British supplied parts on early carriers supplied to the Canadian government. Some have been posted here on MLU. For a list of Brit parts, see Watson, Universal Carriers, Volume 1, page 114.

If you examine the parts manual FUC-03 there are guides with respect to the serial number change over for the installation of certain TL parts. For example, the Solex carburetor 40 RZ INP was used to serial # 2039.

[Nech]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

On the vertical differential cover that appears in your posted image, the step usually placed on the driver side has a bracket attached underneath to fit the crow bar. While it appears common to rivet the steps to the plate, there is a transition point or modificaion to use removable fasteners. The step inserts on early carriers are a composite material. See Ben Hawkins Scout carrier restoration as a reference. Eventually all composite or rubber material for firing rests, straps and steps changed over to wood, webbing and checker plate.

Nigel Watson published a page listing the major portions of the British manufactured parts that were shipped to Ford Canada. Those parts show on the Canadian government orders as well as British Supply Ministry orders. There are multiple image examples of British supplied parts on early carriers supplied to the Canadian government. Some have been posted here on MLU. For a list of Brit parts, see Watson, Universal Carriers, Volume 1, page 114.

If you examine the parts manual FUC-03 there are guides with respect to the serial number change over for the installation of certain TL parts. For example, the Solex carburetor 40 RZ INP was used to serial # 2039.

Very usefull! Thank you very much! I am already in touch with Nigel, but his books are already sold out. Need to hunt them down on ebay or somewhere.

[Lynn Eades]

As an example of what Michael R has said, a few of the brake expanders I have seen from early carriers are dated back to 1935 1936.
Probably we were fortunate that someone pre Dunkirk could see a need and had some parts production up and running. In the case of the brake expanders, there must have been a previous application, because 1935 was too early for carriers.
In the early stages of assembly many carriers had parts fitted from the previous years production, but as you might imagine by 1942, production was streamlined to the extent that parts going on were "just made".

As you might imagine, Britian was already tooled up for production of instruments like speedos (that fitted in an existing carrier panel) Until Canada could set up specialty production lines lines, it made sense to out source those parts.
The crow bar is stopped from sliding out of the strapped socket under the right step, by the low rib on the right side of the left step. Look at pictures of other U.Cs.

[kevin powles]

Michael, The carrier I have has all British made parts and was sent over to Canada as a factory example to aid the reproduction and assembly, all the armour is Stamped 'TL'.

Kevin.

[Michael R.]

Martin,
I believe your driver side rear upper engine cover is complete with the air cleaner instructions. That style air cleaner installed to SN #5787. Although mostly replaced by the oil bath cleaner, an early one was available for sale at the fall, 2015 OMVA meeting.

Your switch panel is the correct British type. From the view of the back of the speedo, it appears correct as the Brit one.

[Nech]

Few new details, the carrier is still under the tarpaulin cover until I'll finish the workshop expansion. I noticed there are no holes on the division plate, where the dataplate is usually located. Am I right, they were never present on those early carriers?

Michael yes, the air cleaner instructions are present and are present as well as the original air cleaner.

[kevin powles]

Martin, Here in upper hull CB253 so will give you a guide to what yours will look like. Interesting your dash has the Canadian speedo, and British oil and temp gauges. This carrier is almost restored now.

that division plate i.d. plate (above drivers right shoulder) was on later mk's of carrier, yours is on the front right wing which you have.

your left track is on the wrong way round too, (not that it matters as i've seen wartime pics the same).

Anyone any ideas on the numbering on the side of mine?.

kevin.

[Lynn Eades]

It also has an original British Light/ Ignition switch assy.

The steel buttoned horn button looks like it is original, but I have not seen one like it before.

[Nech]

Thanks for info! Here is the horn button from the side view:

[eddy8men]

nice project martin, I too will be restoring my mk1* (again) and I'm sure we can help each other along the way. good luck with the resto

rick

[RichardT10829]

Taking yours to Normandy next June Rick ?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by kevin powles

Anyone any ideas on the numbering on the side of mine?.

kevin.

Kevin

Your lettering and numbering is the early domestic (in Canada) system.

The upper letters will denote the unit or training school. I can't quite make out your letters. It is possible the last part of it is CSR for Canadian Scottish Regiment.....perhaps the first part is HMG for heavy machine gun?

Below that is the T which is for tanks and carriers including standard, 2 pdr equipped and mortar.

The numbers below that are the year. It can be the following year from production.....consider it more the year it was given the DND registration, followed by a-1-, followed by a sequential number which can be one to four digits indicating it's registration number. By what I have seen these appeared to be applied almost in batches locally rather than each vehicle being given a number as they left the factories.

So in the end your numbering is:

ABCDE (unit or school designation)
T (carrier)
41-1-405 DND registration for 1941, being the 405th vehicle registered.

If you can bring up the lettering more clearly for your unit we may be able to decipher it.

This registration system of numbering was changed in 42 to a different format. Some of the earlier vehicles got re-numbered and some didn't.

Edited to add: the letters of the unit intrigued me so I did a little more research. I think I found it thanks to Wikopedia.

66th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RCA

• Originated 1 August 1930 in Nanaimo, British Columbia as the 2nd Battalion, The Canadian Scottish Regiment
• Amalgamated 15 December 1936 with "A" Company, 11th Machine Gun Battalion, CMGC, and redesignated as the 2nd Battalion

(Machine Gun), The Canadian Scottish Regiment

• Redesignated 7 November 1940 as the 2nd (Reserve) Battalion (Machine Gun), The Canadian Scottish Regiment
• Redesignated 1 January 1941 as the 2nd Battalion, The Canadian Scottish Regiment
• Redesignated 15 October 1943 as the 2nd (Reserve) Battalion, The Canadian Scottish Regiment
• Converted 1 April 1946 to artillery and redesignated as the 66th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Canadian Scottish

Regiment), RCA Amalgamated 31 December 1954 with The Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's) and the 62nd Anti-Tank Battery, RCA

So my guess is your markings are something along the line of:
2B(MG)CSR
....T
41-1-405

[Nech]

Originally Posted by eddy8men

nice project martin, I too will be restoring my mk1* (again) and I'm sure we can help each other along the way. good luck with the resto

rick

And good luck to you Rick! Count me in!

[kevin powles]

Originally Posted by rob love

Kevin

Your lettering and numbering is the early domestic (in Canada) system.

The upper letters will denote the unit or training school. I can't quite make out your letters. It is possible the last part of it is CSR for Canadian Scottish Regiment.....perhaps the first part is HMG for heavy machine gun?

Below that is the T which is for tanks and carriers including standard, 2 pdr equipped and mortar.

The numbers below that are the year. It can be the following year from production.....consider it more the year it was given the DND registration, followed by a-1-, followed by a sequential number which can be one to four digits indicating it's registration number. By what I have seen these appeared to be applied almost in batches locally rather than each vehicle being given a number as they left the factories.

So in the end your numbering is:

ABCDE (unit or school designation)
T (carrier)
41-1-405 DND registration for 1941, being the 405th vehicle registered.

If you can bring up the lettering more clearly for your unit we may be able to decipher it.

This registration system of numbering was changed in 42 to a different format. Some of the earlier vehicles got re-numbered and some didn't.

Thanks Robe, Thants Great !. heres another pic of it slight diff angle.

many thanks kevin, Ironic too as ive mounnted a Vickers M.G. in it!.

[rob love]

That angle shows a little more.

I suspect it may have 2ND BN (M.G.) C.S.R.

Cannot guarantee the small letters beside the 2 or the B. You will have to look for traces of paint in those areas.

Good luck finding photos of the unit during that short time period. There is a unit of Cdn Scottish still in BC. If they have a museum, there may be photos.

http://www.canadianscottishregiment....p?page_id=1021

They have a book available for sale. Perhaps there are relevant photos in it.

[kevin powles]

Thanks Rob, Have sent them an email. I will certainly mark it back up correctly, the carrier has been grit blasted now.
here's a short cut to a bren carrier with number which looks like 41.1.680 on there website.

http://www.canadianscottishregiment....php?LIMIT7=48#

kevin.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by kevin powles

Thanks Rob, Have sent them an email. I will certainly mark it back up correctly, the carrier has been grit blasted now.
here's a short cut to a bren carrier with number which looks like 41.1.680 on there website.

http://www.canadianscottishregiment....php?LIMIT7=48#

kevin.

I had to go through your link to find the photo. If it is the one I think you are talking about there are two carriers. It looks like the other carrier is 41.1.679. Note that they are at Debert by that time, which is on the Eastern coast, several thousand miles away from BC where the unit was originally, so the carrier numbers and markings on the carrier in this photo will differ from your carrier. Units will not have dragged their equipment across the country with them, and Debert may have been a bit of a training depot, so the carriers may not get any markings beyond the DND number.

Anyway, we are really getting off track from the TL13 thread. Perhaps this discussion could be moved to it's own thread.

[Wayne Hingley]

Debert was a training camp near Truro, Nova Scotia. Soldiers from across Canada arrived in Debert by rail, for essentially "basic training" and weapons training prior to departing from Halifax to Europe.

[Nech]

Another details of the current condition, engine compartment.