Wanted: Axle parts

AustinM · #1 21-06-12, 23:44

Hey everyone. i have a set of axles from a ford blitz but the only thing wrong with them is that the cage is broken in on of the front drive axles. does anyone know where and how much it would cost for me to get a new one of those cages, 4-6 balls and maybe that little male piece that goes inside the assembly? i would love to be able to use the axles again. thanks

lendlease · #2 22-06-12, 02:29

G'day mate,
Ross Prince in Australia has these parts available NOS. PM me here for his email address if you are interested. You will find him a very helpful guy to deal with. LOL

AustinM · #3 22-06-12, 03:17

hey, ill have to wait untill i get a bit more cash flow because illhave to payfor the shipping. i live in ontario, Canada

cletrac (RIP) · #4 22-06-12, 03:26

You could try this place.

AustinM · #5 22-06-12, 03:51

That guy lives in a wonderful world

Bob Carriere · #6 25-06-12, 03:45

...... do you have a picture..... some of us can't read to well....

You may not need a special Ford part but a generic CMP part.....

.... by the way where in Ontario and what's your name...?

Bob

...phrum the Barn !!!!!!

AustinM · #7 25-06-12, 21:39

did you want to see the part i need or the actual axles?

Gunner · #8 25-06-12, 22:04

Hi Austin:

What Bob is trying to hint at is that this is a forum where we use our real names and hometowns... if you are a bit shy you can euphemistically state that you are somewhere near Toronto or Vancouver or whatever.

We are a friendly bunch here and welcome all military vehicle enthusiasts, we just avoid being a mystery to each other... thats the way we started when our lamented Giff created the forum and it seems to work for us.

So, tell us a bit about yourself and your project and we'll all chip in to help!

Mike

hrpearce · #9 25-06-12, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinM

did you want to see the part i need or the actual axles?

Pictures of the parts needed would help then we all can look in our spares bins to see what we have.

AustinM · #10 26-06-12, 01:09

well im Austin MacDonald and im in south western ontario. Around Owensound or Port Elgin if anyone knows where those places are. i dont have any pictures of the parts right now but i will be able to get some up tomorrow. i guy gave my these axles along with a frame and transfercase. and as far as ive found these are the cage and balls are the only parts i need

Gunner · #11 26-06-12, 04:46

Hi Austin and welcome to the forum!

There are two families of axles and two sub-sizes: Ford and Chev each made their own axles (Fords are split around the pumpkin and Chevs are made like a banjo with front and back covers bolted on).

The axles were made in two sizes: light and heavy. Light axles were used on trucks up to 15 hundredweight (CWT)- about 1 ton. Heavy axles were used on all bigger trucks.

Some pictures will help us suggest where you can find the parts you need.

Mike

AustinM · #12 26-06-12, 18:45

well it is the split axle (ford) but i cant seem to load any pictures. ill keep trying but im pretty sure they r the heavy fords

Bob Carriere · #13 27-06-12, 05:02

Hi Austin

The first picture has me baffled. Second one is the rear axle brake drum which could be Ford of Chev.

You say you axles have teh split design so that makes them definitely Ford.

The issue here is that even Chev axle with the central banjo share the same outboard steering mechanism.

The cage in the first picture must come from the inside of the steering knuckle of the front axle. There were two basic design the A model whichis much simpler and far more common on CMP trucks Ford ro Chev.

The you have the B model which is also known as the R-Zeppa model and is usually found on early CMP models...... they are made like a fine Swiss watch.

The cage you have shown does not look like any of the two above design.

Would love to see more pictures of the axle that has been taken apart.

Maybe some else can chip in with identification.... I am stumped !!!

Bob

AustinM · #14 27-06-12, 05:25

i took the whole front end apart thats why i took the picture of the rear axle. and i found that cage in the front knuckle, it is quite broken. cage has 6 openings, 2 wider than the others (while playing around i found that the wider ones are so i can roll the other piece inside).

Lynn Eades · #15 27-06-12, 05:33

Firstly, Austin, welcome to the forum. Your on the right one.
This is the cage from a Rzeppa joint. I would be concerned about the rest of the joint, having seen this.
They are the same type (bigger of course) as some of the WWII jeeps (and dodges)

AustinM · #16 27-06-12, 13:52

the rest of the joint is pretty rough but i think it is still ok. i might look to replace the male piece that goes inside everything

Bob Carriere · #17 28-06-12, 03:43

Hi Austin

Went back to the parts manual and Lynn is correct it is th internal cage.

I would suspect from the shrapnel piece you showed that you may have other internal damage,

It may be easier to get a similar size complete CMP axle and transplant both extreme steering knuckle including the inside axle shafts and U joint as a complete unit with both sides matching. Could be a straight unbolt off one axle and bolt on to the other.

What are your plans for the rolling frame...... are you thinking of restoring the truck by finding a suitable cab etc.....?

There should be some parts available on the Goderich / Petrolia area.

Heavy parts to ship so local fionds are always better.

If you are stuck finding local parts I may be able to help you out if you plan visiting the war museum in Ottawa.

Bob.

AustinM · #18 28-06-12, 23:15

the rest of the parts dont look too bad. i just need one of those cages and 4 balls. do you know how i could get ahold of somebody that would have the piece in godrich? and i havent decided yet, im short on cash so im just taking it one step at a time. first step being getting the axles to work, replacing the whole axle almost seems like more work than is needed... plus i have a feeling that would cost me more. is the a company the makes these parts anymore? or parts that would work

Bob Carriere · #19 29-06-12, 04:27

HI Austin

None of us have had aby success planting/growing the proverbial money tree.....

Your first hurdle willbe to find a suitable R-Zeppa inner axle...... and no to the best of my knowledge parts are no longer available/produced. The reason they left the R-Zeppa design behind and went for a more easily mass produced axle was simply time/cost. The R-Zeppa is made like a fine watch... I doubt that you could mix and match parts that have been worn and even less if one has been parlty destroyed. The tolerances are way to tight.

Cost wise and ease of finding a complete replacement axle would from my expereince be much cheaper and easier to do.

AS a reference..... a R-Zeppa axle for an early 40 Dodge is listed at $150 USA $ juts for one side plus shipping, custom ect....... and if one is damaged there is a good chance the other side took a beating.

I am sure you can buy a complete Ford CMP axle for $200 / 250 complete with brake drums...... all it needs is to bolt back to the spring packs. Of course you would want to take it apart to clean the lub, regrease, and do the brake ( lining and wheel cylinders ) ......

You could probably just buy one steering knuckle for $150 including shaft for one side. But it is usually chepaere to buy the whoel axle than individual parts.

Please note that all above replacement axles will 99.99 % of the time have a different CMP bendix mass produced u-joint arrangement and NOT a R-Zeppa axle.

Let me share my expereince. My 1940 Chev CMP had one busted R-Zeppa axle and I had to buy, over a 3 year period, about 3 trucks and 2 spare axle before I could find one that had the proper inner R-Zeppa inner axle...... all in all my front axle became very expensive.

....and you have to literally take that axle apart to tell if you have the right one and few sellers will let you do that if you don't pay up front. BUT now I know better...... if you remove the cast iron hub cap on the front axle.... and using a dental pick.... feel around the center recess of the axle shaft..... remove the grease and try to feel for a threaded pattern in the center hole...... if it is deep threaded ( and very few are ) you have a R-Zeppa for sure. That thread has a deep deep recess set screw that is critical to the disassembly of the R-Zeppa cage for inspection and re-assembly. A long stem narrow shaft carburator flat blade screw driver is needed to do this deed.

If all you are concerned with is to get it mobile I would suggest you find either the complete steering knuckle to transplant or a complete CMP axle.

Bob C.

AustinM · #20 29-06-12, 21:18

did all of the axles have the samegearing ratio? and if i were to buy a new axle assembly would i be able to get anything for the one i have?

Phil Waterman · #21 29-06-12, 23:21

Hi Austin

How much off roading do you plan to do with the truck? My reason for asking is that the front ends can be assembled with out the inner drive shaft and any of the ball joint parts. All you need to carry the load of the front wheels is the short outer shafts.

This has been my fall back plan if I ever break an inner shaft or have problems with the ball drive shafts. This practice of neutering the front ends was fairly common, to the point that some of the US Chevy 1 1/2 ton manuals have a special section for doing it. See http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/T...%20Excerpt.htm on my web site.

If you go this route you really need to remove the same parts on both sides. Don't go shifting the transfer case in to 4 wheel drive while moving when you have done this it makes a horrible noise as the front shaft is not moving. However you can still use the low gear range if you come to a complete stop. Be careful though using low range with just the rear wheels driving lots of torque.

Make this as a suggestion so you can get your truck moving while you hunt for parts or a spare axle. I drove my HUP this way for a couple of years when I first had it, little quieter and little better gas mileage.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #22 30-06-12, 01:13

Hi Austin

There are two sizes of axles..... one for the 15 cwt and one for the larger 60 cwt.

First we need to identify the size of your axle...... on top of the steering knuckle..... the small axle has four bolts..... the larger has 6 bolts...

see Picture attached... any CMP axle withthat 4 bolt size will have the saem ration. In addition...on top of the centre gear cluster.... there should be a ratio stamped into the cast iron body..... you may need to clean the area with a stiff wire brush and wet down with light oil to be able to read it.

Bob C

AustinM · #23 30-06-12, 03:12

mine has the 4 bolts on that piece. And Phil, thanks for the suggestion but i want the 4 wheel drive.

Bob Carriere · #24 30-06-12, 04:10

HI Austin

Remember the outward plange on each side of the axle.... once unbolted a Chev steeerign knuckle or Ford steering knuckle is the same and will bolt in place.

IF $$$ is a concern....forget fixing the R-Zeppa and get a regular CMP axle and get mobile.

Bob

AustinM · #25 30-06-12, 18:00

well ill keep my eyes open but the only axles like this ive ever seen are mine and the guy down the road from me has the chev versions

Tony Wheeler · #26 04-07-12, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinM

the guy down the road from me has the chev versions

Are they available or are they on a running vehicle? If they're available then you can pull out the complete axle shaft and CV joint assembly and use that. They're interchangeable between Fords and Chevs. At least, they are with the large 6" steering ends anyway. I know because I once replaced the damaged Rzeppa type joint on my Ford with the other type which I pulled out of a Chev. Yours are the small 4 7/8" steering ends but I would imagine they're interchangeable too. Of course, that's assuming the guy down the road has the small steering ends.

Whether or not those ones are available, you'll definitely have to source a complete CV joint assembly. Even if you managed to find a new Rzeppa cage and balls they'd be no good to you. The tolerance between the cage and the outer joint is very tight, the slightest damage to either surface will cause them to bind, which is what caused this failure in the first place. Since the cage is damaged, the outer joint is obviously damaged too. You wouldn't even be able to fit a new cage in there, much less get it to move freely. That was the problem with my own Rzeppa joint, and that cage was only lightly scuffed in one spot.

As the Ford manual says about Rzeppa joints: "These joints are built to a high degree of precision, and should be treated and serviced with the same care as ball bearings. Freedom from grit or other foreign matter, as well as proper lubrication are very important."

In other words, your whole CV joint is scrap. You'll need to find another one, or at least another front end to pull one out of. They're easy enough to find over here, but of course shipping cost would be prohibitive. As I say, I'd be pretty confident you could use a Chev one, provided it's 4 7/8" of course.

Tony Wheeler · #27 04-07-12, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinM

did all of the axles have the samegearing ratio? and if i were to buy a new axle assembly would i be able to get anything for the one i have?

As Bob says there were two sizes of front axle: heavy (60 cwt) and light (15 cwt).

The heavy axle had 6" steering ends, and 43 tooth crown wheel for use with 20" wheels.

The light axle had 4 7/8" steering ends, and 39 tooth crown wheel for use with 16" wheels.

Both diffs had the same 6 tooth pinion, and the crown wheels are interchangeable.

Your's is the light axle, which means it will have 6/39 diffs. If you can only find a heavy axle you can still use it, but you'll have to split the diff housing and swap the crown wheel. It's probably best to swap the pinion as well, because the teeth mate with the crown wheel through years of wear. You may even have to re-shim it in the new diff housing.

It's a lot of extra work, when all you really need is to replace one CV joint. And within a week of doing all this extra work, the correct part will suddenly turn up!

AustinM · #28 07-07-12, 17:27

the axles arent being used, in fact they are just sitting in his bush but he seems to think he will need them for parts someday. not sure why he thinks that since the other axles he has that are under a vehicle arent being used either. i might try and bug him about them again but i doubt ill make it very far. does it have to be an rzeppa that i put back in or will the shaft splines from other types match up?

cletrac (RIP) · #29 08-07-12, 04:55

Where are you located? After all, Canada is a big place! I have a spare Ford front axle that's not the RZeppa kind but shipping might be pretty high. I also see that Dave Shindel needs a crown and pinion for one so maybe you two could get together on it.

Tony Wheeler · #30 08-07-12, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinM

does it have to be an rzeppa that i put back in or will the shaft splines from other types match up?

No it doesn't have to be a Rzeppa joint, the splines are the same on both types. It's only the joint itself that's different, I think they phased out the Rzeppa joint due to high production cost. The other type doesn't have the cage, which saves a lot of machining.